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Lulzsec Recent Rampage
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Post by
Adamsm
Therefore distributing the PS3 jail-break should not be illegal either.Except...it is? Since again, Hotz agreed to never release how he did it online and settled with Sony.
Post by
chaosultimamage
Therefore distributing the PS3 jail-break should not be illegal either.Except...it is? Since again, Hotz agreed to never release how he did it online and settled with Sony.
It's illegal for Hotz to do it now since he made an agreement with Sony. It's not illegal for anyone else to crack it and post it online.
If it were, a lot of the sites and videos you see would be taken down.
Also, torrenting music and making bombs is not illegal. It's how you use it and what music you torrent. I can find plenty of legal music on the internet to download.
Post by
Adamsm
Therefore distributing the PS3 jail-break should not be illegal either.Except...it is? Since again, Hotz agreed to never release how he did it online and settled with Sony.
It's illegal for Hotz to do it now since he made an agreement with Sony. It's not illegal for anyone else to crack it and post it online.If they do, just like Hotz, they'll get slapped by orders from Sony; you are free to crack your own PS3 but don't brag about it where the law can actually reach out and smack you.
Post by
Squishalot
Are you saying that Jail-breaking the iPhone is illegal? The point he was making is that people distribute the iPhone jail-break. It is NOT illegal to do so. Therefore distributing the PS3 jail-break should not be illegal either.
My point is that being able to Google something doesn't make the websites you find legal. You can Google child porn uploads as well - that doesn't make the distribution of it legal.
If it were, a lot of the sites and videos you see would be taken down.
Tell that to the child pornography industry?
Now, to be clear - I am not comparing hacking a PS3 to child pornography. I'm simply using it as a tool to show you how dense your argument is.
Edit:
Also, torrenting music and making bombs is not illegal.
Actually, making bombs is. Explosive devices of greater than a certain power level have to be registered. Possession of explosive material without a license is an offense in most jurisdictions.
Post by
Xil3
Are you saying that Jail-breaking the iPhone is illegal? The point he was making is that people distribute the iPhone jail-break. It is NOT illegal to do so. Therefore distributing the PS3 jail-break should not be illegal either.
My point is that being able to Google something doesn't make the websites you find legal. You can Google child porn uploads as well - that doesn't make the distribution of it legal.
You are right in the fact that being able to Google something doesn't make the websites you find legal, HOWEVER Jail-breaking an iPhone is legal, so what is your argument here?
Lets try this a different way.
1. Jail-breaking iPhone = legal
2. Jail-breaking PS3 = illegal
Now that I put that in terms anyone can understand, do you see my point? Either they should both be illegal or they should both be legal.
Therefore distributing the PS3 jail-break should not be illegal either.Except...it is? Since again, Hotz agreed to never release how he did it online and settled with Sony.
It's illegal for Hotz to do it now since he made an agreement with Sony. It's not illegal for anyone else to crack it and post it online.If they do, just like Hotz, they'll get slapped by orders from Sony; you are free to crack your own PS3 but don't brag about it where the law can actually reach out and smack you.
This is my point completely, why can Hotz not distribute the jail-break? iPhone users distribute their jail-breaks. Here is the link to one
http://torrents.thepiratebay.org/4989699/redsn0w-win_0.8.zip.4989699.TPB.torrent
Also here is the link to his "Dev-Team Blog" about his iPhone jail-break.
http://blog.iphone-dev.org/post/126908912/redsn0w-in-june
So why can they do that but Hotz not? You still cannot tell me this.
Post by
chaosultimamage
Are you saying that Jail-breaking the iPhone is illegal? The point he was making is that people distribute the iPhone jail-break. It is NOT illegal to do so. Therefore distributing the PS3 jail-break should not be illegal either.
My point is that being able to Google something doesn't make the websites you find legal. You can Google child porn uploads as well - that doesn't make the distribution of it legal.
If it were, a lot of the sites and videos you see would be taken down.
Tell that to the child pornography industry?
Now, to be clear - I am not comparing hacking a PS3 to child pornography. I'm simply using it as a tool to show you how dense your argument is.
Edit:
Also, torrenting music and making bombs is not illegal.
Actually, making bombs is. Explosive devices of greater than a certain power level have to be registered. Possession of explosive material without a license is an offense in most jurisdictions.
Well, I dunno about you, but I've never found any child pornography on the Internet. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it's obviously gotta be a bit harder to find that regular porn, otherwise it would be taken down or blocked. If you were to just Google it, I'm sure all you get is a bunch of parody images and articles on people being arrested for it.
As for the bombs, you didn't say high-yield explosives or specifically bombs that were above the legal limit - you just said bombs. Just "bombs" aren't necessarily illegal. I see you didn't mention anything regarding the music portion of the debate, either.
Post by
Squishalot
1. Jail-breaking iPhone = legal
2. Jail-breaking PS3 = illegal
Wrong. Jail-breaking a PS3 is just as legal as jail-breaking an iPhone. I've already said as much:
Hotz is allowed to crack his own PS3. All he does is stuff up his warranty. The illegal bit is uploading the details and spreading it online. This, I believe, is still consistent treatment between the PS3 and jailbreaking mobile phones.
What you said was that you think uploading details on jailbreaking for one is legal and the other is not legal:
So it is legal for someone to upload the details of jail-breaking an iPhone and spread it online, but not to do so with a PS3. That is what we are stating is not fair.
This statement is incorrect. It was illegal to upload details of how to jail-break an iPhone in the sense that Apple have the right to sue them over it.
Having said that, a bit of digging shows that the EFF won an exemption from the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) in relation to jailbroken iPhones. So technically, it's only legal because they have obtained an exemption for it, and was previously illegal up until July 2010. By definition, if nobody has obtained an exemption from complying with the DMCA in relation to the PS3, it is still illegal at present. If you think it's not fair, then apply for an exemption via the normal legal channels.
I see you didn't mention anything regarding the music portion of the debate, either.
All I need to say is that numerous torrent sites have been taken down over the years, including many sites sharing music illegally. The existence of new torrent sites doesn't mean squat.
Well, I dunno about you, but I've never found any child pornography on the Internet. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it's obviously gotta be a bit harder to find that regular porn, otherwise it would be taken down or blocked. If you were to just Google it, I'm sure all you get is a bunch of parody images and articles on people being arrested for it.
I can't say that I've looked, but given the number of people and politicians being found with child pornography stashes, I'd warrant that it's not actually that hard to find. Just like illegal music downloads.
Post by
Adamsm
Therefore distributing the PS3 jail-break should not be illegal either.Except...it is? Since again, Hotz agreed to never release how he did it online and settled with Sony.
It's illegal for Hotz to do it now since he made an agreement with Sony. It's not illegal for anyone else to crack it and post it online.If they do, just like Hotz, they'll get slapped by orders from Sony; you are free to crack your own PS3 but don't brag about it where the law can actually reach out and smack you.
This is my point completely, why can Hotz not distribute the jail-break? iPhone users distribute their jail-breaks. Here is the link to one
http://torrents.thepiratebay.org/4989699/redsn0w-win_0.8.zip.4989699.TPB.torrent
Also here is the link to his "Dev-Team Blog" about his iPhone jail-break.
http://blog.iphone-dev.org/post/126908912/redsn0w-in-june
So why can they do that but Hotz not? You still cannot tell me this.
Because Hotz made an agreement with Sony that he won't apparently; if he does, he'll lose out on the settlement and probably end up in jail. Seems that Apple doesn't care as much about their hardware secrets as Sony does...which makes sense, since the Iphones are made to be modular and the PS3 isn't. We can't tell you why exactly, because unlike the PS hacking, there was no open court case for jailbreaking a phone.
Post by
Xil3
1. Jail-breaking iPhone = legal
2. Jail-breaking PS3 = illegal
Wrong. Jail-breaking a PS3 is just as legal as jail-breaking an iPhone. I've already said as much:
Hotz is allowed to crack his own PS3. All he does is stuff up his warranty. The illegal bit is uploading the details and spreading it online. This, I believe, is still consistent treatment between the PS3 and jailbreaking mobile phones.
What you said was that you think uploading details on jailbreaking for one is legal and the other is not legal:
So it is legal for someone to upload the details of jail-breaking an iPhone and spread it online, but not to do so with a PS3. That is what we are stating is not fair.
This statement is incorrect. It was illegal to upload details of how to jail-break an iPhone in the sense that Apple have the right to sue them over it.
Having said that, a bit of digging shows that the EFF won an exemption from the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) in relation to jailbroken iPhones. So technically, it's only legal because they have obtained an exemption for it, and was previously illegal up until July 2010. By definition, if nobody has obtained an exemption from complying with the DMCA in relation to the PS3, it is still illegal at present. If you think it's not fair, then apply for an exemption via the normal legal channels.
Hmm thank you finally you realized you were wrong.
So here is the facts.
Jail-breaking and distributing how to do so with an iPhone is legal, however Jail-breaking and distributing how to do so with an PS3 is illegal.
Now I want you to tell me how much #$%^ing sense that makes.
It doesn't. Period.
Now all that took was a little research from you. yay.
If any of you had bothered clicking my links you wouldn't have been arguing for nothing.
Also Apple DID try and sue, however unlike Hotz this user went to court with them. The ruling was that it is legal. Honestly Hotz should have just taken Sony to court and embarrassed them, however I can see how a multi-billion dollar corporation can scare a kid (Hotz is only 21 at this time.)
Post by
Cambo
Xil3, you should keep an eye on your attitude.
Discussing and debating is fine, but be less angry and don't get personal. Or a mod may step in.
Post by
Xil3
Xil3, you should keep an eye on your attitude.
Discussing and debating is fine, but be less angry and don't get personal. Or a mod may step in.
I am not getting personal, I am getting aggravated that the past 3 or 4 posts the person I was arguing with didn't even know that Jail-breaking an iPhone was legal. I feel like it was a waste of my intellect. I apologize for seeming to be angry, however do not confuse my passion with anger. <3
Post by
Adamsm
Every company is different which is what it boils down to; and I still don't think Sony did as much wrong as everyone says they did for this: But again, the person who jailbroke it already admitted he won't post how to do it....so seems like Sony won, and now that they have the win, they've set precedent for any and all future cases and will more then likely keep winning.
Post by
chaosultimamage
I see you didn't mention anything regarding the music portion of the debate, either.
All I need to say is that numerous torrent sites have been taken down over the years, including many sites sharing music illegally. The existence of new torrent sites doesn't mean squat.
Well, I dunno about you, but I've never found any child pornography on the Internet. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it's obviously gotta be a bit harder to find that regular porn, otherwise it would be taken down or blocked. If you were to just Google it, I'm sure all you get is a bunch of parody images and articles on people being arrested for it.
I can't say that I've looked, but given the number of people and politicians being found with child pornography stashes, I'd warrant that it's not actually that hard to find. Just like illegal music downloads.
Illegal music downloads are easy. Hell, they're basically advertised.
New torrrent sites isn't at all what I'm talking about, though - I'm talking about the fact that using BitTorrent to download music isn't illegal unless the music is copyrighted and the artist / label says they don't want you doing it. There are many artists, including several that are already pretty famous, that just don't care, because they'd rather have their music heard than be $%^&s.
There are also a good many indie films that are available for free via torrents because they aren't trying to necessarily make money off the movie / music. They know that it will promote them.
Also, certain media that is licensed outside of the United States and media that is not endorsed (I guess that's the right word) by the RIAA/MPAA is essentially fair game as long as you're not re-distributing it for profit.
Post by
Squishalot
Jail-breaking and distributing how to do so with an iPhone is legal, however Jail-breaking and distributing how to do so with an PS3 is illegal.
Now I want you to tell me how much #$%^ing sense that makes.
...
Also Apple DID try and sue, however unlike Hotz this user went to court with them. The ruling was that it is legal.
This is where you were wrong. Apple did sue, and did so successfully. As a result, because the jail-breaking was a breach of copyright, EFF applied to the copyright office to grant an exemption on the basis that a non-jail broken iPhone is essentially anti-competitive (being that Apple restricts the apps for development). The copyright office sided with Apple on the basis that it is a breach of their copyright, but believed that the need to restrict anticompetitive behaviour was more important than the copyright.
The reason why it's legal is because of anti-competitive reasons, not because it's not a breach of copyright. There isn't the anti-competitive case to be made for Sony, and therefore, there is no reason why the PS3 jail-break and distribution should be legal.
So, research. What research did you do exactly?
New torrrent sites isn't at all what I'm talking about, though - I'm talking about the fact that using BitTorrent to download music isn't illegal unless the music is copyrighted and the artist / label says they don't want you doing it. There are many artists, including several that are already pretty famous, that just don't care, because they'd rather have their music heard than be $%^&s.
I know, and that's not a breach of copyright, obviously. I'm not overly fussed about that. Feel free to swap the link to include 'illegal music' instead, and it applies just as well.
You're still not responding to my point. The fact that something is available online doesn't make it legal simply because 'if it were illegal it would be shut down'.
Post by
chaosultimamage
New torrrent sites isn't at all what I'm talking about, though - I'm talking about the fact that using BitTorrent to download music isn't illegal unless the music is copyrighted and the artist / label says they don't want you doing it. There are many artists, including several that are already pretty famous, that just don't care, because they'd rather have their music heard than be $%^&s.
I know, and that's not a breach of copyright, obviously. I'm not overly fussed about that. Feel free to swap the link to include 'illegal music' instead, and it applies just as well.
You're still not responding to my point. The fact that something is available online doesn't make it legal simply because 'if it were illegal it would be shut down'.
Illegal things on the Internet are shut down on a daily basis. That's why when you search "asian ass porn", you get what you searched for, but if you search "child pornography", you get news articles and arrest reports.
Youtube is constantly petitioned by companies over copyright issues and videos are taken down. The shear volume of sites, videos, and downloads for the software is proof that it isn't illegal and that Apple knows they can't do anything about it. Now, what you do with it, however....
That's the principle that you're failing to understand. Cracking and modding consoles or mobile phones is fine. Posting How-Tos and information regarding it online is fine. Selling it as your own, or selling your doing it as a service is not fine. Pirating games is not fine.
Post by
Xil3
Jail-breaking and distributing how to do so with an iPhone is legal, however Jail-breaking and distributing how to do so with an PS3 is illegal.
Now I want you to tell me how much #$%^ing sense that makes.
...
Also Apple DID try and sue, however unlike Hotz this user went to court with them. The ruling was that it is legal.
This is where you were wrong. Apple did sue, and did so successfully. As a result, because the jail-breaking was a breach of copyright, EFF applied to the copyright office to grant an exemption on the basis that a non-jail broken iPhone is essentially anti-competitive (being that Apple restricts the apps for development). The copyright office sided with Apple on the basis that it is a breach of their copyright, but believed that the need to restrict anticompetitive behaviour was more important than the copyright.
The reason why it's legal is because of anti-competitive reasons, not because it's not a breach of copyright. There isn't the anti-competitive case to be made for Sony, and therefore, there is no reason why the PS3 jail-break and distribution should be legal.
So, research. What research did you do exactly?
Could you please provide me the link where Apple took someone to court and won for jail-breaking, I would like to read it and I cannot find it on Google, thanks.
Here is a little section from an article on the EFF's website.
"Apple's shackling iPhone owners to the iTunes App Store has nothing to do with protecting Apple software from piracy. Instead, it's all about
limiting competition and innovation on the iPhone platform.
For example, Apple has refused to approve iPhone apps that compete with Apple's own software, such as Mail, Safari, and iTunes. Apple has also censored ebooks from the App Store. And developers of iPhone VoIP applications have also encountered inexplicable delays in app approval. "
Source:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/01/iphone-developers-support-effs-dmca-exemption-jail
Sony is doing the SAME thing. Limiting innovation on the PS3. Below I will give an example of a jail-break for the PS3 which adds a TON of LEGAL functionality to the PS3. I am sure all of you would enjoy these functions to be added into the actual PlayStation. Well guess what Microsoft has done this. When the original Xbox was modded and people were adding all this functionality Microsoft took notes on what they were and added those functions to the Xbox 360. This furthered the console. An example is support for the media player. Yea you know the whole let me play music from my computer playlist on my Xbox 360, well that came from a modder on the original Xbox. You cannot deny that Sony can improve on the PlayStation.
This is from Section III B of the exemption for all handsets.
"Computer programs that enable wireless telephone handsets to execute software applications, where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability of such applications, when they have been lawfully obtained, with computer programs on the telephone handset."
Source:
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2010/07/dmcaexemps.pdf
Those programs would be the distributed jail-breaks. I am not sure where you are getting this "anti-competitive" notion from, however it isn't in the legal documentation. What this says to me is that the circumvention is accomplished for enabling applications that Apple doesn't want on your phone to work together. The lawfully obtained part is not a problem as Hotz was not advertising "here is how to steal PS3 games" In fact here is what he posted that he was sued over.
"Hello hypervisor, I'm geohot
I have full read/write access to the entire system memory, and HV level access to the processor.
In other words, I have hacked the PS3. The rest is just software. And reversing. I have a lot of reversing ahead of me.
Took 5 weeks, 3 in Boston, 2 here, very simple hardware cleverly applied, and some not so simple software.
Shout out to George Kharrat from iPhoneMod Brasil for giving me this PS3 a year and a half ago to hack. Sorry it took me so long
As far as the exploit goes, I'm not revealing it yet. The theory isn't really patchable, but they can make implementations much harder. Also, for obvious reasons I can't post dumps. I'm hoping to find the decryption keys and post them, but they may be embedded in hardware. Hopefully keys are setup like the iPhone's KBAG.
A lot more to come..."
Seems pretty innocent to me, doesn't look like he is telling everyone to pirate games.
Thus you could say the same for the PS3. Hotz was trying to add further functionality to the PS3 that Sony didn't like. Like Apple, Sony would enjoy keeping you contained so you have to purchase all of their stuff and only use your PS3 the way they intended. In fact PS3 jail-breaks add some pretty cool functionality if you ask me. Here is an example of one. It is called X3MAX Jail-break.
"• NEW ADDED FEATURE! Onboard microSD Slot (will support 32GB) for future programming capabilities!
• 128KB Programming memory
• Strong 32-bit Processor
• 16K RAM
• Easy to use installer and GUI takes you step by step.
• Compatible with all production models FAT and SLIM.
• Supports all regions: USA, JAP, PAL and KOREA X3 Max disables forced software updates and will never brick your console.
• Supports high % of games
• Backup to your internal hard drive or external hard drive through USB, and boot directly off GUI.
• Eliminating the need for expensive blueray burners and costly blank media.
• Play off your hard drive which is 2x faster boot time
• This eliminates lags and glitches to provide you with smoother gameplay
• Open up your console to a new generation of homebrew applications
• Load homebrew apps/games off any USB hard drive/flash drive"
Source:
http://www.acekard.ca/X3Jailbreak-X3Max-Jailbreak-USB-Stick-for-PS3Playstation-3_p_84.html
Now tell my why the iPhone users can add functionality to their phones, yet we can't add functionality to our consoles. We purchased the consoles, they belong to us. Don't go back to the distributing argument please as we already know that distributing this for the iPhone is legal.
Post by
Azazel
One thing's for sure: LulzSec ain't bad when it comes to putting down govermental websites.
Also, this probably is on some other page, but filtering it out between the legal jailbreaking discussion thing is a little difficult, Anonymous and LulzSec have joined forces and are starting a group called AntiSec.
Post by
chaosultimamage
What I'm wondering is how a bunch of 19 year old kids are doing so much damage to government sites. It's just sad.
You'd think these people would have enough security to keep DDoS attacks from taking down everything.
Post by
Xil3
One thing's for sure: LulzSec ain't bad when it comes to putting down govermental websites.
Also, this probably is on some other page, but filtering it out between the legal jailbreaking discussion thing is a little difficult, Anonymous and LulzSec have joined forces and are starting a group called AntiSec.
Yes is was Stated before, but it was simply linked.
Holy $%^&.
^^There is the original post for it.
Post by
Patty
What I'm wondering is how a bunch of 19 year old kids are doing so much damage to government sites. It's just sad.
You'd think these people would have enough security to keep DDoS attacks from taking down everything.
To quite a few of them, it's probably pretty much their life. It's bad that they can do so much damage though, definitely. On the other hand, that helps point out errors in the government sites' systems, which should then be rectified.
Edit: Also, dunno if people are aware of
this
.
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