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10.2.6
Improved my DPS but....
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Post by
jakerooni
Well in a nutshell I'm confused. (what's new right?) Let's go to the beginning. Back when I dinged 85 and got a lot of my 346 gear I decided to start running the heroics. Think I ran BM and MM back then. Thought I knew what I was doing. pulling a massive 5-8k DPS.. as you can probably guess I was shown the kick button more than once.... Was told to learn my class. etc etc..
So I did.. I found places like Eilitest Jerks, WarcrafthuntersUnion, ask mr robot. etc etc etc.. Read all the article changed up rotations enhanced the gear (got better gear) and man did I start seeing some huge improvements. Started seeing consistent 11k-15k DPS scores. Thinking cool. Made some great leaps really paying some dividends. Kept running the heroics. Got into the Zul's, Maxed out my gear they had to offer.saw a few more improvements. Thinking I'm doing quite well.
Which brings me to now. Sitting at a 361 iIvl. Have little issues with any runs at all for Cata Dungeons. Even the Zul's present little to worry about and I can consistently see 13k-17k with spikes on some bosses up in the 18k-22k range. To me this isn't to bad.
Until that is I ran BWD for the first time and the other Hunters in there we're seeing DPS ratings in the mid 20ks with the top guy into the 30K's. Check their gear and yes they are better (a lot of 378 gear on) while I was pulling 15k. Buff's maybe? But double the DPS? Now it's got me thinking..
I've read the preferred talent tree's on wowpopular.com I've read the rotations on both EJ and WHU. And then I saw the article about Gear v. Skill and it makes me think even more. I'm doing the suggested rotation listed. I've seen some great improvements. And so far personally from what I've seen the other Hunters that really out DPS me are better geared. But the difference is so great that there's gotta be something else I'm just missing. What skills don't I have that I'm missing out on 10K worth of DPS? And why do I see better AP ratings on BM spec over my SV spec.. (I get roughly the same overall DPS scores regardless of which spec I'm in)
Now I know there are a LOT of much much better hunters out there than me. And maybe someone is seeing an obvious flaw I'm missing. Rotations are exactly as you see listed on WHU for both BM and SV. No macro's but I do have a naga mouse that helps with all the clicking. But overall for a 361 ilvl BM/SV spec'd hunter what "Should" I see as a normal range for DPS? Is my average 15k decent am I way off the mark Should I be closer to 25-30K? I can't imagine a few better pieces of gear would make up that much of a difference. Maybe I'm close to the mark, maybe I'm way off. I know I saw some huge improvements. But it seems as there's still a whole other plateau I need to get to yet.
Thanks for reading and any advice given in advance. And sorry for a "My DPS is low" type of thread even though it's really not (or at least I didn't think it was) It's more of a "Made some good improvements but is there more? and how do i get it" type of thread.
link to armory if it helps....
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/durotan/Shambooga/advanced
Post by
Lorkin
Here's a few things:
MM is king, running BM/SV you are bound to see lower results.
You are new to the Tier 11 raids like BWD. Once you get more familiar with them, you will perform better.
Those numbers probably include AoE. Take static single boss fights like Atremedius, Chimeron, and even the Omnitron bots and only compare the damage in those fights.
It doesn't matter what your online stats are, use femaledwarf to analyse your potential damage.
MM depends on gear, so those FL: geared folks just have better gear than you. You are in ZG/ZA gear and they are rocking FL gear, almost 2 tiers above you.
Post by
greywolfsage
It could also be a matter of muscle memory.
They have the rotation ingrained by likely raiding a lot more frequently and finding the information that you did a lot sooner.
Also, are hotkeyed? the "helps with the clicking" bit makes me wonder. Clicking is most definitely slowing your rotation down in gimping your dps.
Post by
Mikzor
Get
woodchucker
on your ranged wep.
Reroll
surv
or
marks
spec (i went marks at about your gear lvl and not going back)
Spent some time running between target dummy and reforging place to fit your gear/spec to proper spots and learn the prio rotation by heart.
You should be then rocking the 20kish+ dps on every fight!
now looking at your surv spec.
kill command glyph? :D could help switching that to arcane shot.
Also i tend to keep Kitty, wolf, ravager + demon dog for the looks if group doesnt need any of my buffs.
So you can switch to pet that brings most benefit to the group
Post by
Jeremypwnz
I thought EJ was way overcomplicated for the normal mind to take. I found WarcraftHuntersUnion to be a easier to understand source.
MM: I tend to not move that much during fights so I use the Aimed Shot glyph (I also keep Arcane Shots down to zero unless I'm moving). Get to the 1235 haste plateau w/o the Chim Shot glyph. Having the 10% melee/range haste buff in the group helps dps more than any other buff from what I've experienced. Pop your trinkets and cooldowns on the initial pull if you know how to not pull aggro. Aimed Shots going off every couple seconds above 90% sees big numbers.
When I was at 359 ilvl, I was pulling 18-22k avg on boss fights. I'm at 371 right now and pulling 23-26k. (Fights like Baleroc when I'm not on crystals, aka Patchwerk, I do a bit more)
Post by
izuul
In general i prefer AiS focus dump too (and i used it for most of the T11 encounters), but I've gotten a bit better results using AS focus dump w/ AS glyph on all of the FL encounters except Baleroc and Beth.
It only takes a few interrupted AiS or other hitches in your rotation to put AS focus dump on top and things like Leaping Flames and Magma Trap can do that quite easily. Not to mention you can't even use AiS while moving which is required quite a bit on those final two encounters.
Post by
Lorkin
Does SV use that much haste?
I checked your gear and if you did switch to MM, reforge a lot of that haste into crit. I generally run a much higher crit build and as MM the rest of my haste turns into mastery.
In terms of AS vs AiS, I prefer AS lately. I think EJ said if you missed 1-2 AiS shots in a 5 min fight (non CA phase), AS pulls ahead. I just find it easier to use and better for positioning. I have more of my attention focused on avoiding crap vs staring at my focus bar ensuring I have enough focus for an AiS and not clipping other shots etc.
Post by
Magician22773
First off, BM is just going to get rocked by both SV and MM right now. Luckily, it does "decent" enough DPS to be viable to raid with if you choose to, but don't expect to top the meters.
For what its worth, I tend to run as BM about 75% of the time, only swapping to SV when I KNOW we need the extra DPS, or on "Patchwerk" style fights with little movement. Why? I just prefer the BM playstyle. For me, its easier, more forgiving to movement and target swaps, and it pretty much takes focus issues out of the equation. But in exchange, I give up at least a couple thousand DPS, maybe more.
As for SV vs. MM, Marks is generally still going to come out on top, but not always, and not by as much as against BM. Both specs require more focus management than BM. And this is really where you find your swings in DPS. Always having the focus to fire your "nuke" shots (Explosive and Black Arrow for SV), but never having more focus than you need (AKA "Dumping") is really the key here. Knowing exactly when you can fit in an Arcane Shot or a Kill Command in, without making you wait on your next ES or BA is a big difference.
Also, trinket and proc use is big as well. Blowing your trinks at the right time to get the most out of them can be a ton of extra damage, as well as getting procs at the right time. Procs are huge for us, since depending on what shots are ready, and whats on cooldown, is going to make a huge difference to us.
TL:DR...Hunters are an easy class to play, not so easy to master. Try not to compare yourself to other hunters unless they are equally geared, and spec'd. And even then, you may see big swings in DPS.
Post by
jakerooni
Thanks for the replies. A lot of information to go through and digest. Somethings bring up a slew of more questions and other things seemed answered pretty well.
Somethings to clear up I guess. I ran MM for most of the time. Started out in BM till 30 then duel spec'd MM and SV till 85. Never was able to really get the rotation down well for MM because at least to me fights happen quick enough and switching my rotation mid battle got confusing and I was always seeing more DPS from the SV side of things. I might give MM another shot here soon. But I'm pretty comfortable running BM and SV now. Feel I got both rotations down decent enough to put up decent enough numbers for the groups I'm used to. However venturing into new territory usually means a re-vamp on the status quo and I don't rule out anything. So MM might just make it back into my spec's. (But the new spirit beast are pretty cool looking LOL)
As far as "Does SV use that much haste?"
Not really sure. Basically what you see in my enhancements/reforges. is 99% of just what I get off ask mr robot. If it tells me to reforge for haste I tend to follow it. Not knowing all the little details behind why I need this over that I tend to be a little trusting on the fact that what I see is probably what I need. The only thing I really know for sure is my hit cap is 8.00% I try to stay as close to that as possible and the rest I just follow what the optimize tells me ( a couple of enchantments aside due to mats and such)
By the sounds of it there does seem to be another plateau I should definatly be looking at. Although it doesn't seem like I'm too far off the mark. And maybe the whole practice makes perfect will be the answer to those last few thousand DPS I need to be averaging.
So new questions then. If "clicking" is bad what is the perfered method. Basically. I have my 1-12 hotkeys on my Naga mouse. And my thumb is quite acustom to hitting them with ease now (learning curve was interesting when I first got it) Which has my main rotations and a couple of extras I slide in for whichever situation I'm going into. I do turn, & run with the mouse. The only movement I really use the keyboard for is jump. (giant space bar is just easy to hit) To me this has worked. However if there's a better way to do things I'm all ears and willing to give anything a shot.
If it matter's on the pets. 99% of the time in BM I'm running the Spirit beast. (Migaria) Unless I'm doing dailies then it's the bear. (terropene has still never popped for me yet) Then in SV mode I run a wolf. Not really sure if there are better options. I have all the types of pets. including cats, dogs, Devilsuars, Chimmera's, Jadefang etc etc. But I know certain ones do give different special abilities that might be more desirable. Not sure if any of them piticuleraly result in more DPS or not.
Basically with current gear It sounds like I should be hitting at least 20K boss fight DPS in SV mode at least. So I will focus on getting to this. I will re-read on rotations. And take the advice given here to see if if I can get it up there. Thanks again guys/gals.
Post by
Magician22773
OK, First...this is all laid out in a lot more detail at Warcraft Hunters Union, so I would really say you need to check them out.
As for haste:
Hunters have a somewhat "unique" application of haste. Rather than a traditional "cap", we have Plateau's, or breakpoints. These are the points where we are able to squeeze in an additional "regen" shot (such as Cobra for SV or BM) inside of the cooldown of our "nuke" (Explosive Shot for SV, Kill Command for BM).
Once you have the required amount of haste to get your Cobra Shots off inside of your nuke cooldown, any additional haste beyond that point is no longer an optimal stat. HOWEVER, once you are able to reach the next plateau, it becomes your #1 priority.
This odd application of haste will often cause you to want to roll on gear that may not be an upgrade now, but will be later on, once you reach the next plateau. It also dictates how you reforge and gem your gear.
The plateaus for haste are:
BEASTMASTER
As BM, your first plateau is an easy one...its ZERO. Yep, you dont want any haste at all that can be avoided.
***Note, this does require that you keep Focus Fire up at all times.***
This obviously doesn't mean you want 0 haste, just don't go looking for it, as any other stat will be better.
The second plateau is 2265. This will allow you to get an additional Cobra Shot, or an Arcane Shot inside of you Kill Command cooldown. Since reaching any other plateau is impossible at this time, this is also what you would call the "Hard Cap" on BM Haste.
SURVIVAL
The first SV plateau is 758. I suggest, however to aim more for around 760-765 to account for lag, and just plain old human error. At this level you will get 3 Cobra's per Explosive.
At 2229, or so, you will be able to get a 4th Cobra, but you will be losing 1 sec on your Explosive Shot CD. It is still considered a "soft plateau" because of this, Other than when you have Black Arrow in your rotation, a 4th Cobra is actually not needed, as you will not need the focus, so inserting a Kill Command, or an Arcane shot will give you a little extra DPS.
The "Hard Plateau" for SV is 5279 without t11 4pc, or 3470 with the set bonus. This is the "Dream State" for SV hunters, as you will be able to fit 4 Cobra Shots inside every Explosive Shot CD.
I hope that helps. Again, WHU explains it a lot better than I could here.
Post by
250116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
jakerooni
Another question.... Add-on's.. Which ones are vital?
Currently using
DBM
Quartz
GTFO
Recount
Just getting into the Raiding I see there's something called raid ready. But it looks like it's just a beta at this point. But it tells which buffs are missing from the raid party. I think it would be great to use it as a "which pet do I need to bring to the dance" type of thing. Is this the right program for that or is there a better more tested one out there that does that?
Post by
izuul
Omen threat meter is pretty important, though threat generally isn't much of an issue now after the latest hotfix. Raid Ready is a pretty nice add-on. It's not perfect, but it can definitely help choose your pet faster.
There are a lot of other good add-ons that can be really helpful, but nothing else that's essential. Here are a few:
Bartender / Dominos (action bars)
OmniCC / FortExorcist (CD management and timers)
Hunter Focus Bar
Power Auras (shows procs)
Elkano's Buff Bars (can set these up to track just about any buff or debuff)
Shadowed Unit Frames / Xperl / etc, etc (unit frames.. tons of choices out there)
NeedToKnow (i use it to track ICDs on trinkets and stuff)
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