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10.2.5
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Bear -Dodge vs. mastery
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Post by
874244
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
curlymon
Potentially yes, but not anytime soon.
Post by
Uiselveti
Yes, there is and it depends on the interaction of agility, stam (yes, stam), expertise, hit, crit, and of course mastery. Due to the way that agility & stam work with our mastery, you can make some generalizations based on item level.
Depending on how you have allocated your stats this can be anywhere from around ilvl365 to around 370ish.
Post by
Zakkhar
Yes, there is and it depends on the interaction of agility, stam (yes, stam), expertise, hit, crit, and of course mastery. Due to the way that agility & stam work with our mastery, you can make some generalizations based on item level.
Depending on how you have allocated your stats this can be anywhere from around ilvl365 to around 370ish.
Actually it only depends on crit. Hit and exp have nothing to do with it at current gear levels.
Post by
curlymon
Yes, there is and it depends on the interaction of agility, stam (yes, stam), expertise, hit, crit, and of course mastery. Due to the way that agility & stam work with our mastery, you can make some generalizations based on item level.
Depending on how you have allocated your stats this can be anywhere from around ilvl365 to around 370ish.
Actually it only depends on crit. Hit and exp have nothing to do with it at current gear levels.
Actually they all matter, but not even close tot he degree that he is suggesting.
Stam increases Vengeance pool which increases the size of the absorb. But Each point of stam only increases HP by a flat amount, which is then only increases Vengeance on the off chance that fight mechanics has not caused it to drop and then gets halved to be a boost to SD... the boost is there but quite small... Almost lost in the math actually.
Crit is a fairly obvious boost to SD procs.
Expertise is actually ranked almost even with but slightly higher then Crit in the stat weights for survivability.
Hit is worth about half of what Expertise is.
And Agi is just a flat beast.
All this said, NO, dodge is NOT falling behind mastery anytime soon. The DR is not nearly as severe as some seem to think it is.
Back in the day we never even though about the DR until we got over 55% dodge and that is WELL into the DR.
Post by
Zakkhar
Yes, there is and it depends on the interaction of agility, stam (yes, stam), expertise, hit, crit, and of course mastery. Due to the way that agility & stam work with our mastery, you can make some generalizations based on item level.
Depending on how you have allocated your stats this can be anywhere from around ilvl365 to around 370ish.
Actually it only depends on crit. Hit and exp have nothing to do with it at current gear levels.
Actually they all matter, but not even close tot he degree that he is suggesting.
How do hit and exp affect mastery effectiveness again? Got to crit cap yet?
Post by
Raleandris
They still increase the uptime of SD, which is what we care about in this context. Getting to the crit cap has nothing to do with it. If we had free GCDs to play around with then I would agree with you. As it stands though, we don't, and thus, expertise (and to a much lesser extent, hit) are valuable in heightening SD uptime.
Post by
Zakkhar
They still increase the uptime of SD, which is what we care about in this context. Getting to the crit cap has nothing to do with it. If we had free GCDs to play around with then I would agree with you. As it stands though, we don't, and thus, expertise (and to a much lesser extent, hit) are valuable in heightening SD uptime.
But SD procs only of crits and crits occur regardless of hit and exp (additional hit and exp switches misses and parries/dodges to simply hits). If you miss or get parried you wouldnt crit anyway.
Post by
Raleandris
Special attacks are on a 2-roll system.
Post by
Zakkhar
Special attacks are on a 2-roll system.
Care to find my a source to that information? According to my knowledge only spells were on 2 roll system.
I found some theories that rogues attacks are on 2 rolls as well, but nothing about druids.
Post by
Thror
I am afraid the only source I would have for that is "Everyone says it is true". It has been proven by the end of WotLK when some people could get the crit cap somehow.
Still, the importance of Dodge and Mastery didn't shift with item levels yet.
Curlymon
's reply in here was all that needed to be said. What did shift though is the importance of Crit and Expertise. It is covered in my guide.
Post by
Uiselveti
All this said, NO, dodge is NOT falling behind mastery anytime soon. The DR is not nearly as severe as some seem to think it is.
Back in the day we never even though about the DR until we got over 55% dodge and that is WELL into the DR.
The reason that Mastery is catching Dodge has nothing to due with DR, but rather the scaling of Mastery.
I would love to see your source or calculations on how this is not possible. My calculations seem to state otherwise, as do Mr.Robot & Tangedyn's spreadsheet.
Stam increases Vengeance pool which increases the size of the absorb. But Each point of stam only increases HP by a flat amount, which is then only increases Vengeance on the off chance that fight mechanics has not caused it to drop and then gets halved to be a boost to SD... the boost is there but quite small... Almost lost in the math actually.
Certainly not lost, but not nearly as large a player in the calculation as Agility. This is primarily due to the fact that
raw
Stamina adds to the AP pool at 10% value whereas
raw
Agility adds to the AP pool at 200% value, and not as you suggest due to Vengeance dropping. The way raid buffs work skews this considerably, but the net effect is that Stamina is much less valuable as a mitigation stat (this should not be interpreted to devalue Stamina as a survivability stat) than Agility.
Expertise is actually ranked almost even with but slightly higher then Crit in the stat weights for survivability.
Higher is correct, slightly higher is not.
Hit is worth about half of what Expertise is.
Up to 26 Expertise, then they are even. The reason should be absurdly obvious.
And Agi is just a flat beast.
Agility makes the largest impact by far and like Stamina & Armor, is fixed by item level; which is what makes generalizations about gear level breakpoints even remotely possible.
Edit: wow, tea time.
Post by
874244
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
236320
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Thror
If no-one minds, I would like to put my two cents in here. I started feral tanking using Thror's guide (ty so much for that btw) and initially geared the first way he speaks of; reforging the most useless secondary stats into dodge leaving mastery/crit when possible esp with mastery. Recently, after reading his section labeled "the secret third way of gearing" I decided to give that a try; reforging everything that doesn't have mastery to have mastery on it and hitting the 26 expertise cap, only reforging into dodge when you have a piece with crit/mastery and you don't need any expertise. I have to say that people really should try it out, I haven't noticed any real change in my mitigation and my dps, which was already not bad at all, is now usually in the top/second spot when I run 5-mans. Haven't tried raiding with the tanking spec yet, can't really speak on that behalf but I don't see why you would have any problems raid wise either. The amount of absorbs I see pop up on my little druid is insance! Thanks again Thror for making such a great guide, feral has definitely been my favorite tanking experience so far.
A few guys from The Inconspicuous Bear and the US battle-net forums have reported the method you use to receive 5~7% of extra damage on raid bosses. Mind you, that is a very bad information to base any conclusions off, because the sample size of fights where the third method was compared to the common agility method by the same tanks is very small, and there is a lot of space for error. By calculation, you take more damage with Expertise>Mastery>Dodge in raids. I can see how it could lead to less overall damage taken in 5-men instances though.
And I am glad you like my guide.
Post by
TheReal
Thror, your guide is one of the gems here at Wowhead. It's the one reason some people get on this site at all, I'm sure.
Post by
Uiselveti
Rhyolith
I gimp my mitigation a bit on this fight by shedding a lot of Mastery in favor of an Agility trinket (my survivability is a non-issue, and the majority of the damage is fire damage not physical anyway), but other than the trinket swap I run the setup I recommend over and over in this forum.
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