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A student's prayer.
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Post by
ElhonnaDS
No offense, MyTie, but I side with the school on that one. Your religion might preach that it's wrong to be gay, just as other religions may teach that someone is going to hell for being a different religion, and other general belief systems may teach that other ethnicities are inferior. But justifying intolerance with religion doesn't mean that the school should ease up on rules about students not saying intolerant things.
I know you don't think it's the same, but when you say "It's wrong to be Gay" I don't think of it as being any different than someone saying "It's wrong to be Black" or "It's wrong to be Jewish." You might believe it, and you have the right to teach your kids to be intolerant as well, but being intolerant of other people is not something the school has to condone just because you encourage it.
Just because it says in your book that people of another religion are going to Hell, doesn't mean that the school has to let your kids tell children of another religion that they are, or make statements in class about how they're going to Hell. Your personal morals might dictate a certain dress code for your children, but that doesn't give them the right to call someone else a &*!@. If you belong to the Neo-Nazi belief system, that's not a justification for you children to use racial slurs in school. And if you believe that there is something wrong with someone who is Gay, your children can't go around telling other students that there's something wrong with them as a result.
I would think treating other people with basic levels of respect, and trying to teach children not to hate would be considered "decent" or "common sense". Aparrently it's actually "Liberal."
EDIT: I know I haven't really ever typed much about my own personal beliefs- partially because debating them in my eyes makes them no more or less true, and partially because one of the primary things I believe is that NO ONE has all the answers.
What I will say, is that I do believe in God, and I do believe that for thousands of years people have tried to figure out who he is and what he wants. I think that over and over they have come to the same general conclusions- that he wants us to treat each other decently, and love each other. He wants us to take responsibility for being a good person, not harming others or putting ourselves first. He wants us to be honest and to act in the way that is right, and not the way that is easy. And I think every time someone had gotten that message, and written it down we've been too damn busy screaming at each other and starting wars over who got the message exactly right to remember what it was.
I think that if there is some evil force, or influence, that the biggest victory it had was weaving ideas of hate and intolerance into all of the major religious doctrines of the world. The majority of what a religion teaches is about self-sacrifice, charity, honesty, humility- all things that make the world better, and that cause you to act in a way that benefits others. They teach you that your actions should harm none, and help where they can.
But the commonly accepted doctrines that it's a sin to be gay, or that you are right to despise those who believe different things than you do, play on a completely different set of human attributes. They play on vanity and pride- of course you're better than those who don't believe the same as you, of course you can judge them. They play on selfishness and cruelty- of course you can say mean hurtful things to them- you're doing what God said. They teach that someone can be damned to hell for harming no one, and despite being filled with love and taking time to give of yourself and be charitable, because of an accident of birth, or a difference in opinion about which person had the best set of rules for being nice to each other.
I don't know about you, but to me those seem to be two contradictory kinds of ideas. Maybe both are products of man's attempt to understand life. Maybe some of it was divine inspiration, and some of it was men twisting their position to cater to their vanity. What I will say is that I cannot imagine a God that creates creatures capable of love, understanding and self sacrifice, and set them on the Earth with orders to hate each other for how they were born, or where they were born, and by what name they call him.
Post by
MyTie
No offense, MyTie, but I side with the school on that one. Your religion might preach that it's wrong to be gay, just as other religions may teach that someone is going to hell for being a different religion, and other general belief systems may teach that other ethnicities are inferior. But justifying intolerance with religion doesn't mean that the school should ease up on rules about students not saying intolerant things.
I know you don't think it's the same, but when you say "It's wrong to be Gay" I don't think of it as being any different than someone saying "It's wrong to be Black" or "It's wrong to be Jewish." You might believe it, and you have the right to teach your kids to be intolerant as well, but being intolerant of other people is not something the school has to condone just because you encourage it.
Just because it says in your book that people of another religion are going to Hell, doesn't mean that the school has to let your kids tell children of another religion that they are, or make statements in class about how they're going to Hell. Your personal morals might dictate a certain dress code for your children, but that doesn't give them the right to call someone else a &*!@. If you belong to the Neo-Nazi belief system, that's not a justification for you children to use racial slurs in school. And if you believe that there is something wrong with someone who is Gay, your children can't go around telling other students that there's something wrong with them as a result.
I would think treating other people with basic levels of respect, and trying to teach children not to hate would be considered "decent" or "common sense". Aparrently it's actually "Liberal."He wasn't belittling anyone with his statement, and he attributed his statement to his personal opinion. It wasn't as if he was mocking someone, or speaking down to anyone.
Furthermore, I have difficulty seeing the parallel between skin color and sexual preference.
But this topic isn't about gay intolerance. It is about school agendas. I disagree with school agendas on a whole. I want my daughter to learn facts and information and leave the agendas out of it. I mean, why is a student in a German class learning about homosexuality? Why not German? It isn't the fact that homosexuality were brought up, but the off topic and agenda nature of the teacher. I would have the same problem if a Muslim teacher were to explain the virtues of Islam, and a student were to say "I'm Christian and I think Islam is wrong", then the kid were to get suspended. It isn't that I agree that Islam is wrong. I think that the attitude that one position is acceptable and the other is unacceptable. Where we are going here seems to indicate that many of you believe that school agendas are ok, as long as they think "X". In this case, X being that homosexuality is acceptable, and opinions to the contrary are not tolerated.
I agree, to a degree. However, I think some kids can go ahead and be racist against blacks, and even say so, as long as they aren't treating anyone poorly or being disruptive, it isn't a problem. This doesn't mean I endorse racism. I just don't endorse the stifling of opinions by schools.
Post by
Monday
Furthermore, I have difficulty seeing the parallel between skin color and sexual preference. The fact that it might be something you're born with?
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I think that was what Ashelia, Jubilee, Doctorlore and myself were trying to point out. Pray whenever, and wherever you want to, and blessed be, The rest is irrelevant. I don't think disparagement of a person's sexuality, or a focus on doctrine helps anybody. It only drives us apart, when all religions teach that everybody is equal before "God".I agree with this. There is no need to condone religion in school, or make rules against it. Let's get back to math, science, literature, etc...Please lock this thread. I'm sick of all the immature, bigoted, verbal scrapping.Who is immature and bigoted? I think this is a worthy topic, and people are being fairly mature.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pezz
Furthermore, I have difficulty seeing the parallel between skin color and sexual preference.
You're right, there. You can change your
skin color
but not your sexual preferences, so that's a big difference.
Post by
gamerunknown
Blargh. Wrote up a fantastic post and firefox had to crash...
Well, reconstructing it from memory.
make rules against it.
I went into America's rank on the world stage earlier in terms of schooling and I've discussed the apportionment of the budget in other threads, but this segment is fairly important. When it comes to promoting an anti-scientific doctrine over the truth, it is fairly important to divorce religion and science. I'm talking, of course, about Intelligent Design.
I think some kids can go ahead and be racist against blacks, and even say so,,,
I used to agree, but since then I've changed my mind. Firstly, I think the school does not have to be a platform to every view. For example, a student should not casually place pornography in their homework, but that doesn't mean pornography itself ought to be banned. My primary objection to racism is that one should not marginalise a group based on something about themselves that they cannot change. I think a logical correlate of this may extend to paedophilia, but there is a useful distinction between child rape and homosexual sex - an adult can understand the implications of having sex, they are less likely to be coerced and they are less likely to sustain damage as they have reached full physical development. I also think that in most cases, it can be permitted to ridicule that which a person can change about themselves.
The second objection I have is that insults can cause stress and stress has a fairly clear correlation to illness. For example, the stressors and uplifts scale can accurately determine whether an individual is at risk of illnesses such as irritable bowel disease. Prolonged low level bullying can lead to more problems in the long term than a slap in a face, but is probably much less likely to lead to prosecution.
I think I've demonstrated (in a roundabout way) why an opposition to homosexuality is categorically different to opposing eating shellfish or a Muslim opposing charging interest (or usury, as one may remember from Economics lessons). The one consistent approach which may be worth mentioning is that an individual believes that sexual intercourse is solely intended for generative purposes and that any misappropriations of its use are wrong. Sexual pleasure would merely be an unfortunate side effect of sexual intercourse. This conception (har har) would rule out infertile (including postmenopausal) couples having sex, along with anal and oral sex, masturbation and contraceptives, along with a whole host of deviancies in between that I probably don't want to familiarise myself with. Fortunately in a liberal Western world (that has the benefit of knowing that sexual pleasure was probably an evolutionary mechanism to ensure we continued to consume resources doing it) we can tolerate all the old fogies that want to have sex without worrying about children and a whole host of other people as well. Including those that believe that a natural, explainable phenomenon such as hurricanes are God's punishment for homosexual sex. Laughing at such people is tolerated too.
Edit: I remember some quote along the lines of "it is the mark of a bigot to refer to an individual by the plural" or similar. Sort of relevant, if one wants a definition of "marginalisation".
Post by
296147
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Levarus
I saw this on Facebook (anyone but me HATE the new Facebook, BTW?), and I had to post it here. Should make for a good thread for the weekend.
Now I sit me down in school Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God Finds mention of Him very odd.
If scripture now the class recites, It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow Becomes a Federal matter now.
Our hair can be purple, orange or green, That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise. Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
For praying in a public hall Might offend someone with no faith at all.
In silence alone we must meditate, God's name is prohibited by the state.
We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks, And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible. To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen, And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong, We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
We can get our condoms and birth controls, Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed, No word of God must reach this crowd.
It's scary here I must confess, When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make: Should I be shot; My soul please take!
Amen
Argh, this angers me. Medieval Europe had it's shot at theocracy, and it sucked. The Inquisition, The Dark Ages, spending the entirety of the treasury on glimmering chapels adorned with richly vast paintings. Religion is a drain on society. Look at the Middle-Eastern Islamic cultures, who are still ruled by the word of their god, they suck. America promotes freedom of speech, allowing Muslim, Christian, and all types of religions within it, if either lashed out at eachother, it would be just like the olden days where people would fight wars because their god was cooler.
Like the Crusades for a good example. America is one of the most highly technological and sophisticated societies in the history of man, I'm glad of the foundations our ancestors enlaid on it, they wanted to flee the manipulative and controlling demands of the local Pope and King in Europe, where they were peasants trying to fend for their lives, and built one of the best societies on Earth, The United States. So this poem, good ser, is rubbish.
Post by
Atik
*Claps for Levarus*
Wow... I never expected to write that... ever...
No offense Lev...
Post by
MyTie
Like the CrusadesThis poem is nothing like. Without disagreeing or agreeing. To be fair, no one is calling to arms people to slaughter any other religion. No one is comparing schools to Nazi Germany, so try to keep a level head yourself.
Post by
Atik
Like the CrusadesThis poem is nothing like. Without disagreeing or agreeing. To be fair, no one is calling to arms people to slaughter any other religion. No one is comparing schools to Nazi Germany, so try to keep a level head yourself.
Physically calling arms to outright kill people? No.
Religions are molding the minds of children before they can decide themselves. From birth, the majority of children more-than-likely are taught some sort of religion.
The wars are no longer fought with swords and shields, but with the leaders of tomorrow.
Post by
Adamsm
Argh, this angers me. Medieval Europe had it's shot at theocracy, and it sucked. The Inquisition, The Dark Ages, spending the entirety of the treasury on glimmering chapels adorned with richly vast paintings. Religion is a drain on society. Look at the Middle-Eastern Islamic cultures, who are still ruled by the word of their god, they suck. America promotes freedom of speech, allowing Muslim, Christian, and all types of religions within it, if either lashed out at eachother, it would be just like the olden days where people would fight wars because their god was cooler.
Like the Crusades for a good example. America is one of the most highly technological and sophisticated societies in the history of man, I'm glad of the foundations our ancestors enlaid on it, they wanted to flee the manipulative and controlling demands of the local Pope and King in Europe, where they were peasants trying to fend for their lives, and built one of the best societies on Earth, The United States. So this poem, good ser, is rubbish.
If I can interject something....doesn't it say in 'God We Trust' in nearly every State Capitol building, courthouse, and a large number of other locations of power all across America? Also.....the original settlers of America? A very very religious society; how do you think said religions started in North America?
Post by
Atik
If I can interject something....doesn't it say in 'God We Trust' in nearly every State Capitol building, courthouse, and a large number of other locations of power all across America?
Which is extremely offensive, and I have always found it so. I usually just try not to think about it when spending money; as it sas it too.
Also.....the original settlers of America? A very very religious society; how do you think said religions started in North America?
They were also hypocrits a lot of the time. They fled religious discrimination, then turned around and did the same things that were done to them.
Noone said the pilgrims were trustworthy or a good role model.
Post by
Adamsm
Noone said the pilgrims were trustworthy or a good role model.Read the last part of Levarus post again.
Post by
Atik
Noone said the pilgrims were trustworthy or a good role model.Read the last part of Levarus post again.
They were fleeing the pope and the tyranny of Europe. The original settlers were of the religious sects that did not believe in following the pope, which lead to them being prosecuted against. Or they just didn't like the current state of things in Europe.
Or you happened to be a prisonner and were sent to Georgia...
Post by
Magician22773
Religions are molding the minds of children before they can decide themselves.
Nah, parents are doing that.
But, why, you ask?
Because thats what the Bible says to do.
Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.
Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.
Teach God's laws to your children and to their children after them.
Post by
Atik
And why are you blindly following a book?
And if it says to do that, it is pretty much the religion molding the minds of kids...
Post by
Magician22773
And why are you blindly following a book?
And if it says to do that, it is pretty much the religion molding the minds of kids...
For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty
We do not "blindly" follow a book. We read that book, and study its content, and then choose to believe what is written in that book. The "gospel" books of the Bible (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) are eyewitness accounts of the life of Jesus, written seperately by four men who walked with him, and witnessed His miracles, and learned His teachings.
If 4 scientists observed some molecular event, then wrote about it, it would be called a textbook, and would be taught in schools.
Acts 1:3 says Jesus “presented himself to and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.
Jesus did this so we would not have to rely on "Blind" faith. He showed Himself to thousands of people so that their would be "Proof" of the ressurection. Believing in Jesus, to me, is no more difficult than believing in ancient Rome.
And the most importantly,
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Romans 8:16
This is the part where as a Christian, I get all the "proof" I need. God's spirit is felt within my own, assuring me that I am saved.
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