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New Warchief?
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Post by
4dehorde
Technically Rankkorr the Alliance did in fact break the treaty first. Daelin Proudmoore, Grand Admiral of the Alliance Navy, invaded Durotar and the Barrens years before WoW vanilla and tried to genocide the Horde. Even after his defeat the Alliance did not reign in the troops he left behind. Tiragarde Keep and Northwatch Hold were filled with Alliance troops in Horde lands, hell, Tiragarde is in DUROTAR, Orc central. Also, Alliance forces were moving against the Forsaken in Hillsbrad and Silverpine over in Lordaeron with skirmishes for years since vanilla. At the same time the Horde was moving against night elf Ashenvale and the night elves were moving against orcish Ashenvale. Overall both sides kinda ignored the treaty, but in my view based on what I've gathered from the lore, the Alliance broke it first.Incorrect as the Tiragarde forces are not part of Theramore? Also, when Daelin invaded Durotar, he imprisoned his daughter(you know, the rightful leader of Theramore?) and conscripted her people to join him.
Actually yes it is correct. I hate to break this to you, but the soldiers at Tiragarde Keep before Cataclysm were from Kul Tiras, one of the kingdoms of the Alliance. Rather obvious by the insignia on their uniforms. And they had been there since the invasion, so it doesn't matter if they were renegades by modern definition. They were still invaders, Alliance invaders. I played through the Orc campaign of Frozen Throne, I saw what happened. To be frank, it really doesn't matter what Daelin did on Theramore. He used his own forces and Theramore's troops, all Alliance soldiers, to attack the Horde, blatantly ignoring the treaty. So yes, there is no question, no doubt, the Alliance broke the treaty years before Cataclysm. Like I've already stated, this is off the subject and as such it should not be pursued any further.
As for Saurfang, your opinions as to why he can't lead are just that, opinions. I am allowed to have my own, and I believe he can lead.
Your word is not absolute.
I really hope all this can get back on track without further incident. This is not an Alliance VS. Horde discussion, its a future Warchief discussion.
Post by
Adamsm
Actually yes it is correct. I hate to break this to you, but the soldiers at Tiragarde Keep before Cataclysm were from Kul Tiras, one of the kingdoms of the Alliance. Rather obvious by the insignia on their uniforms. And they had been there since the invasion, so it doesn't matter if they were renegades by modern definition. They were still invaders, Alliance invaders. I played through the Orc campaign of Frozen Throne, I saw what happened. To be frank, it really doesn't matter what Daelin did on Theramore. He used his own forces and Theramore's troops, all Alliance soldiers, to attack the Horde, blatantly ignoring the treaty. So yes, there is no question, no doubt, the Alliance broke the treaty years before Cataclysm. Like I've already stated, this is off the subject and as such it should not be pursued any further.Except......The Treaty was created
AFTER
the fall of the Lich King; it was not in existence at that point, so the fact that a rogue faction, which was from the days of the
Grand Alliance
(which is not the same thing as the current Alliance) does not mean a single thing.
Edit: And when you bring up points, of course people are going to discuss them. And since Golden(read as Blizzard) states that Saurfang is tired of warfare and doesn't want to lead, seems like it's fairly obvious he won't be the Warchief.
Post by
Rankkor
Post Shattering, yes it's Northwatch soldiers who are under the Alliance, but as it's back to war at that point(since the breaking of the treaty happened before the Shattering occurred), Garrosh attack on the ships at sea were the original opener to the return to war, and then add in the Ashenvale assault right after the Shattering well....
ejem, Garrosh's attack on the ships at sea, while despicable, was not breaking any treaty, as those ships where on horde waters (yes I know, it was due to the storm, but garrosh is a jerk enough to abuse loopholes like that)
Besides, the book said that their ship was sinking anyways, garrosh could had A: helped them, B: ignore them and let them die anyways, or C: kill them due to being in horde waters. He chose a mix of A and C, he killed some of them, then let the rest live. If it was me, I'd choose A; but I'm not garrosh.
and the attack on the ashenvale druids was after the Shattering.
While the alliance forces invading Durotar, AND them attacking honor point were stuff that happened BEFORE the shattering, making THEM the ones who trew the first stone. The one concession I'm willing to make to the alliance is that from THEIR point of view, the horde broke the treaty first with the attacks on both the sentinels and the druids in ashenvale. But from OUR point of view who know better, those attacks where the result of Twilight hammer, not horde forces. Making the alliance the ones who trew the first stone.
Edit:
Except......The Treaty was created AFTER the fall of the Lich King; it was not in existence at that point, so the fact that a rogue faction, which was from the days of the Grand Alliance(which is not the same thing as the current Alliance) does not mean a single thing.
not quite bro'.
The "grand alliance" and the current alliance as I told you before, is still the same political body, still the same morals, still the same religion, still the exact same thing. The only change the alliance has had in the past years is that 4 nations (Dalaran, Lordaeron, Alterac, and stromgarde) are no longer a part of it, and 2 new nations (Exodar, and Darnassus) are a part of it now.
I do agree on one thing though: That old treaty that Thrall and JAINA signed was exclusively between the horde and theramoore, the other alliance nations never signed or agreed to uphold said treaty, and so they weren't bound by it. Much like the blackrock orcs, who are part of the OLD HORDE (one that is DEFINITLY DIFERENT from the current horde) never signed the new treaty after the lich king's death, and so they continued their attacks against stormwind and lakeshire.
Post by
Adamsm
If that was true Rank, then the Gilneas Worgen would not had to have been voted back into the Alliance; as part of the original Alliance, they should have just been welcomed back, no vote. It's the same for Kul Tiras: Until someone from it comes forward, they are an ally nation but not part of the new Alliance at this point, as Jaina is the leader of Theramore and the Lordaeron survivors.
I know you don't want to read Wolfheart, but you should.
Post by
Rankkor
If that was true Rank, then the Gilneas Worgen would not had to have been voted back into the Alliance
they are the exeption because they LEFT bro' they built a massive wall, and when the alliance needed THEM, they turned their backs and said "go bother someone else". But I bet you 50 bucks that when Kul Tiras gets re-introduced, they wont have to make any sort of deal, or plead, or anything, because, hey, they never stoped being alliance.
Best example: Baradin wardens. Military force of Kul Tiras, we haven't seen them since....... ever. Introduced in cata, and automatically are treated as part of the alliance.
I know you don't want to read Wolfheart, but you should.
blech, do I really have to? I skipped Stormrage and look, turned out that book was a waste of time, nothing of real significance happened there AT ALL, every single event on that book had no real repercution on the game. Other than of course explaining malfurion's return, and Xavius demise, and one minor character (Fandral) going wacko.
Post by
Adamsm
If that was true Rank, then the Gilneas Worgen would not had to have been voted back into the Alliance
they are the exeption because they LEFT bro' they built a massive wall, and when the alliance needed THEM, they turned their backs and said "go bother someone else". But I bet you 50 bucks that when Kul Tiras gets re-introduced, they wont have to make any sort of deal, or plead, or anything, because, hey, they never stoped being alliance.
Best example: Baradin wardens. Military force of Kul Tiras, we haven't seen them since....... ever. Introduced in cata, and automatically are treated as part of the alliance.Yeah but since the Horde has a faction for that as well, not sure if I'd count the Warden as the official members of Kul Tiras as it is now; I'm still interested to see what will happen when Tandred Proudmoore shows up: If he's going to continue his father's legacy or join with his sister or not.
I know you don't want to read Wolfheart, but you should.
blech, do I really have to? I skipped Stormrage and look, turned out that book was a waste of time, nothing of real significance happened there AT ALL, every single event on that book had no real repercution on the game. Other than of course explaining malfurion's return, and Xavius demise, and one minor character (Fandral) going wacko.
Well other the Golden referencing the Nightmare War, and explaining why Fandral was in prison and the rest. And should still read Wolfheart anyways Rank; or at least my review of it lol =P, cause not sure if you have or not yet.
Post by
4dehorde
Actually yes it is correct. I hate to break this to you, but the soldiers at Tiragarde Keep before Cataclysm were from Kul Tiras, one of the kingdoms of the Alliance. Rather obvious by the insignia on their uniforms. And they had been there since the invasion, so it doesn't matter if they were renegades by modern definition. They were still invaders, Alliance invaders. I played through the Orc campaign of Frozen Throne, I saw what happened. To be frank, it really doesn't matter what Daelin did on Theramore. He used his own forces and Theramore's troops, all Alliance soldiers, to attack the Horde, blatantly ignoring the treaty. So yes, there is no question, no doubt, the Alliance broke the treaty years before Cataclysm. Like I've already stated, this is off the subject and as such it should not be pursued any further.Except......The Treaty was created
AFTER
the fall of the Lich King; it was not in existence at that point, so the fact that a rogue faction, which was from the days of the
Grand Alliance
(which is not the same thing as the current Alliance) does not mean a single thing.
Edit: And when you bring up points, of course people are going to discuss them. And since Golden(read as Blizzard) states that Saurfang is tired of warfare and doesn't want to lead, seems like it's fairly obvious he won't be the Warchief.
That is not the treaty I am talking about, I am talking about the original treaty signed at the end of the Third War, which, despite what you may believe, is canon and applies to ALL of the Alliance nations. Why do you think published lore states "The forces of Kul Tiras under Proudmoore launched a full scale invasion, ignoring the treaty"? Neither Theramore nor Kul Tiras are considered "rogue factions" in the slightest. They are still part of the Alliance to this day, and their actions are accountable to the Alliance because they are part of it. If a nation signs a treaty and then proceeds to violate it, it is accountable for that, no matter how you spin it.
Besides, there are some in the fan community who believe that treaty mentioned in The Shattering is not canon. It has come under questioning because it conflicts with the declaration of war made at the Battle for the Undercity, which is considered canon. I'm not saying I'm one of them, but a number of people do believe that treaty ever even existed.
Also, I did not bring up those points, I simply explained to Rankkorr that his point was missing a few facts. Finally, we just went over this, your opinion is just that, an opinion. You can have your opinions, and, despite what you may think, I too can have my own.
I'm dropping this Alliance VS. Horde discussion you started. I'm going to stick to the topic I created this whole thread for. This is meant to be about who you think would be a good future warchief to replace Garrosh, and my honest opinion is Varok Saurfang.
Post by
Monday
I'm dropping this Alliance VS. Horde discussion you started. I'm going to stick to the topic I created this whole thread for. This is meant to be about who you think would be a good future warchief to replace Garrosh, and my honest opinion is Varok Saurfang.
If you debate with somebody, you can't just say: This is what I think. Now shut up and don't respond to me, because it's off topic. If you say something, everyone else has the right to respond to it.
If you really want to get the discussion back on track, sneaking in the last word isn't going to help. Just don't respond to his comments and bring it back on track. Attempting to stick in one last argument
then
bringing it back on track just makes you look like a $%^&.
Post by
Rankkor
Yeah but since the Horde has a faction for that as well, not sure if I'd count the Warden as the official members of Kul Tiras as it is now
why not? Hellscream's Reach is just a new faction added as a counter-part to the wardens because no military unit of the old horde exists in the new one (hell, the old horde didn't even HAD named military units, they just zerg-rushed everyone) But the wardens have been an established part of the lore for quite a while, and being from kul tiras, they show up in cata, and TA-DAH, are treated like they never left, because they didnt'. The Gilneans DID left, and this is why they must be voted back.
(I do wonder why the high-elves were accepted back without a voting, because if I recall correctly, Silvermoon semi-left the alliance after the second war)
I'm still interested to see what will happen when Tandred Proudmoore shows up: If he's going to continue his father's legacy or join with his sister or not.
indeed, but lets face it bro' NOBODY follows jaina these days U_U. Most of the alliance seem to have Daelin's mentality these days. But yes, I am curious to see his reaction.
Well other the Golden referencing the Nightmare War, and explaining why Fandral was in prison and the rest
golden's reference was nothing more than a simple common recognition, but asides from a 1-time mention in the first chapter of the shattering, the "Nightmare war" has never been mentioned, discussed, or even acknoledged in any other book, much less the game. Fandral is a very minor character, the events in Stormrage are very negligible and can easily be overlooked without becoming lost.
Is not like..... say the shattering, one of the most important books they've made. One skips that and suddenly upon starting cataclysm, its one WTF after the other. Why is cairne dead? why is thrall no longer the warchief? why is magatha gone? why is garrosh warchief? and (this is why I like her) not just major events for the horde, major for the alliance too. Why is magni a statue? why is moira back? who are these 3 dwarves ruling ironforge? Anduin a priest? ect.
Way too important to overlook, its a must-read book, like Day of the Dragon, or Twilight of the Aspects. But Stormrage and Wolfheart are very VERY trivial, like the leader short stories published on the main site. One could skip them, and still not miss anything important.
And should still read Wolfheart anyways Rank; or at least my review of it lol =P, cause not sure if you have or not yet.
Ohh I'll definitly read your review, and even the resume in wowpedia (once its up and ready) but I'm feeling very unmotivated to read the actual book for several reasons.
One of the major plot points is wheter or not the worgen and highborn get accepted into the alliance, but due to Foregone Conclusion, we already know they do. The other plot point is demonizing the horde, and the orcs in general (showing once more that Knaak is an orc hater.) And the third is showing maiev as a crazed woman unable to let grudges go, even after thousands of years.
The book is not even based on recent events, its based back when worgens and highborne weren't yet a formal part of the alliance (way back to the beginning of cataclysm, shortly after the shattering) making it even more unappealing to me.
Faction-biased books are a no-no for me. Even books like Lord of the Clans, didnt' showed ALL of the alliance in a negative light, as there were good people in it. Ditto for "Of blood and honor" which also depicts some positive lights on the alliance, despite being horde centered.
Wolfheart is exclusively a book of "praise the alliance, loathe the horde", but since its knaak, i wasn't expecting anything less of him.
Post by
Rankkor
That is not the treaty I am talking about, I am talking about the original treaty signed at the end of the Third War, which, despite what you may believe, is canon and applies to ALL of the Alliance nations. Why do you think published lore states "The forces of Kul Tiras under Proudmoore launched a full scale invasion, ignoring the treaty"?
cough*cough, bro' even though i'm a horde fan I gotta correct you there. The treaty signed at the end of the third war was exclusive between Jaina and Thrall, who were the ones who fought and bled together at Hyjal.
The other nations like Ironforge, Stormwind, Gnomeregan, and other members of the alliance never traveled to Kalimdor to meet with the horde and sign any documents at all.
The reason published lore states "the forces of kul tiras under proudmoore launched a full scale invasion ignoring the treaty" is because they forcibly took command of theramoore and forced theramoore soldiers to invade, which WAS breaking the treaty.
But as stated above, said treaty was exclusive to Orgrimmar, and Theramoore. nobody else.
Besides, there are some in the fan community who believe that treaty mentioned in The Shattering is not canon. It has come under questioning because it conflicts with the declaration of war made at the Battle for the Undercity, which is considered canon.
Its because that treaty was never shown ingame, it was made "behind doors" after the death of the lich king, and this time it was signed by all members of the alliance and horde.
Post by
Atik
(I do wonder why the high-elves were accepted back without a voting, because if I recall correctly, Silvermoon semi-left the alliance after the second war)
They didn't iirc. Even after becomming Blood Elves, they remained with the Alliance right up until the end of WC3. One of the heroes is a blood mage.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
(I do wonder why the high-elves were accepted back without a voting, because if I recall correctly, Silvermoon semi-left the alliance after the second war)
They didn't iirc. Even after becomming Blood Elves, they remained with the Alliance right up until the end of WC3. One of the heroes is a blood mage.
well, that's why I said "semi-left"
Silvermoon itself left the alliance, but all the elves outside of silvermoon (Those living in lordaeron and dalaran, and other alliance nations) refused to leave and return to the motherland (thus being saved from the scourge purge :P)
My guess is, the alliance needed reinforcements to fight the scourge, so they dind't took very seriously the elven statement of leaving the alliance.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Link to my book review thread is in my sig there Rank, right below my Story thread.
Post by
4dehorde
That is not the treaty I am talking about, I am talking about the original treaty signed at the end of the Third War, which, despite what you may believe, is canon and applies to ALL of the Alliance nations.
Did this come from a book I missed? Because I'd ask for a citation from that.
The only mentioning (that I know of) of the post Third War peace treaty that actually includes the surviving allied kingdoms of the east comes from the Warcraft RPG.
The treaty signed between Durotar and Theramore is binding to all nations in both factions, or at least it was. It did not just exist in the RPG, it was referenced in WC3 Frozen Throne and has been mentioned in WoW as well. However, most of references of it were in vanilla, which has been all but completely wiped from the game with Cataclysm.
Anyway, I agree with the notion that if the blood elves were to ever seek to rejoin the Alliance, which is very unlikely given the fact that the feelings of betrayal they hold to humans and dwarves is still present, they would be met with strong opposition form the high elves. We saw first hand just how the two groups react to one another at the Argent Tournament. The Sunreavers and the Silver Covenant were practically at each other's throats.
There is also another racial obstactle a blood elf reunion with the Alliance faces, the night elves. As far as the night elves are concerned, on average, the blood elves and high elves too are both considered "bastard races" (as mentioned by Maiev Shadowsong). They equate them to the Naga, former kal'dorei who have fallen from glory and good.
Post by
Rankkor
The treaty signed between Durotar and Theramore is binding all nations in both factions, or at least it was. It did not just exist in the RPG, it was referenced in WC3 Frozen Throne and has been mentioned in WoW as well. However, most of references of it were in vanilla, which has been all but completely wiped from the game with Cataclysm.
you may want to double-check that my friend. In order to sign a treaty, each alliance leader would had to travel to kalimdor. Neither did.
Jaina signed a peace treaty with the horde, but Varian, Magni, Gelbin, and the other alliance leaders never signed anything, nor agreed to anything.
That treaty was exclusively between Orgrimmar and Theramoore. Jaina didn't (and still doesnt) have the authority to bind unilaterally all the alliance nations to a treaty without their consent, unless each leader agrees to the binding and signs the treaty in person.
None of the alliance leaders did that. Daelin broke the treaty not due to invading durotar, but because he comandeered the Theramoore forces and forced them to invade, and that was a breaking of the treaty.
Post by
4dehorde
The treaty signed between Durotar and Theramore is binding all nations in both factions, or at least it was. It did not just exist in the RPG, it was referenced in WC3 Frozen Throne and has been mentioned in WoW as well. However, most of references of it were in vanilla, which has been all but completely wiped from the game with Cataclysm.
you may want to double-check that my friend. In order to sign a treaty, each alliance leader would had to travel to kalimdor. Neither did.
Jaina signed a peace treaty with the horde, but Varian, Magni, Gelbin, and the other alliance leaders never signed anything, nor agreed to anything.
That treaty was exclusively between Orgrimmar and Theramoore. Jaina didn't (and still doesnt) have the authority to bind unilaterally all the alliance nations to a treaty without their consent, unless each leader agrees to the binding and signs the treaty in person.
None of the alliance leaders did that. Daelin broke the treaty not due to invading durotar, but because he comandeered the Theramoore forces and forced them to invade, and that was a breaking of the treaty.
I strongly disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion. Regardless of the legal issue, either way Daelin violaed the treaty and even after his defeat the Alliance did not reign his troops in.
Post by
Adamsm
Because those weren't Alliance forces? Remember, Daelin was a rogue, and his attack on Durotar was not sanctioned by Theramore...since you know....Jaina helped to keep her people back so that Rexxar and his group could kill the Grand Admiral.
And it's still just a treaty between Theramore and Durotar, not the entire Alliance and Horde forces.
Edit: Also, not Rank's opinion, since it's the actual canon lore.
Edit 2: And if you except the Alliance forces to reign in rogue factions, then in the same vein of ideas, it's the fault of the Horde that the Blackrock Orcs are attacking the Alliance lands.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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