This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
I just realized......Grey Morality Doesn't Exist
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Orranis
You need to work on your strawmans.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
I'm sure that, somewhere, you can find someplace where those are not considered wrong.
Post by
Adamsm
Abuse and child molestation yes, but killing does have degrees : Manslaughter is nothing like premeditated murder after all.
But just because those are acts of evil, it does not mean there isn't any gray to the world.
Post by
Orranis
Unprovoked killing of an innocent human being
This never happens. And if it did, I could label the 'criminal' insane, and theoretically absolve him of immorality.
Post by
gamerunknown
I'm sure that, somewhere, you can find someplace where those are not considered wrong.
Well, we have to make a sober analysis of this: the violent rape after kidnapping of a child previously unknown to the molester as an extreme and thus very useful example.
Before we begin we should acknowledge that morality isn't established by fiat. Slavery wasn't "right" up until the 14th amendment, its moral validity hasn't changed throughout history. Likewise, if power is completely devolved, that wouldn't make gang rape moral because the majority of participants agree that it is.
So, first, we have to ask whether the individual would wish for the action to be committed against themselves. If not, then it's not so much that they consider it good, as that they are submitting special pleading.
So, we refine our example: a sadomasochistic child kidnapper and rapist. Now, the teleological departs from the pragmatic. We could use this as evidence that child rape and torture are not immoral, but I don't think any moral relativist expounds that doctrine. It's pragmatic to promote the general happiness where consent is forthcoming in society. We can say that the rapist is giving consistent support for their principles, but that's based on the rapist's consent without considering that of their victim. Their victim has a legitimate reason for special pleading, namely a different environmental and genetic background to the perpetrator. Should the behaviour go unpunished, society would certainly be worse off due to the reduced happiness and increased pain.
Post by
Pwntiff
Want to shoot your childhood memories of classic Disney movies squarely between the eyes? Read the original collection by the Brothers Grimm.
Morality is, by its very nature, subjective. Actions that are immoral in one society may be moral in another, and actions that are immoral to one person may be moral to another. The subjective nature of morality means that on the whole a strict dichotomy is impossible. And the fact that no human ever acts in a either a completely selfless or selfish way, the strict black and white scale cannot apply to reality.
The only way to say someone acted completely "in the white" would be if they acted for the betterment of another with absolutely no thought for themselves, and the only way to say someone acted completely "in the black" would be if they acted for their own betterment regardless of the harm done to others. While the former may actually apply to a very few people, the latter can almost only apply to complete sociopaths, which would mean they are actually amoral.
Post by
MyTie
I think you are going to run into problems when you try to define morals with colors. Interestingly enough, I'm watching "Watchmen" right now, which is all about moral questions, and right and wrong.
In the end, I believe that people are neither total good, nor total bad. The only exception is Jesus, who was a perfectly pure human being. But, I digress, people ACT in ways that are good and bad, or neutral. People themselves are not morally stable. Everyone falters, or steps up to responsibility in times of peril. Don't compare people to the color 'gray', or to an onion, or any other vegetable. It will only lead to confusion.
Post by
Thror
Want to shoot your childhood memories of classic Disney movies squarely between the eyes? Read the original collection by the Brothers Grimm.
Was the best read of my life. I am exaggerating, but it was still pretty awesome.
Post by
OverZealous
There are still many things that are universally accepted as wrong.
Such as :
Unprovoked killing of an innocent human being
Abuse
Child Molestation
&
Rape
These are not subjective, they're fact, because if any of these happen to you or someone you care about, you will find it wrong. Just like everyone else. So it's universally bad. Noone would want any of these things listed to happen to them or someone they care about, so that makes them universally bad.
And by that, I can deduce that morality is not subjective, at least not entirely.
"Innocent", however,
is
subjective. Who decides whether X person was innocent or not?
Post by
gamerunknown
"Innocent", however, is subjective. Who decides whether X person was innocent or not?
Take my example: someone that's a stranger and that one has no knowledge of committing any crimes. In other words, not motivated by political or financial reasons.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Jubilee
Sorry for swearing, but why the !@#$ is 90% of the discussion being framed in terms of (semi-)fictitious characters?
Because then they get to argue about which version of the pretend character is the real version.
Post by
Adamsm
Well since the topic itself is set up in a fictitious view anyways....
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Well since the topic itself is set up in a fictitious view anyways....
I could say morality being subjective is subjective.
.....That makes no sense.....
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Well other then reality showing otherwise.
Post by
Pwntiff
If two people can have differing morals, morality is subjective. Some people consider premarital sex moral; some don't. Q.E.D., morality is subjective.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.