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Blood Death Knights Need a Serious Nerf In PVP
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Post by
b4xx
Bah we still going at it?
Blood was never OP in pvp. It had (and still has) a low learning curve, which basically makes it easier for bloods to kill bad players with ease. However, skilled players can kill bad players with ease anyways. The only difference was (and still is) that bloods didn't have to make as much effort doing this, so it was a perfect spec for a not-too-skilled player. However, the fact alone that a class has a low learning curve doesn't make it OP. It is an easy spec to play at first (randoms, 2's), but in the higher rated arenas and RBGs blood is useless (and that's where the gameplay gets balanced). However, it was an annoyance for the (bad) majority, so Blizz took away some of the damage.
Maybe it's better this way, people have less to cry about.
Post by
588688
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Post by
870547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
Or you're playing against a double blood. Or you're playing against something like Blood/Rogue. The way vengeance scaled in 4.3 if Howling Blast cleaved onto a Blood DK he'd get vengeance capped.
balanced around 3's / 5's and RBG's
balanced around 3's / 5's and RBG's
balanced around 3's / 5's and RBG's
balanced around 3's / 5's and RBG's
I repeated this 4 times, to add to the multitude of times it's already been said. If you're talking about balance, random battlegrounds, duels, or 2v2 have no place in the discussion. That's not a debatable point. Saying that most people do them is irrelevant.
Blood Death Knights, and to a lesser extent other tanks, are not seriously overpowered in significant PvP content. What does bother me, however, is the content that causes them to be overpowered, is due to a completely unnecessary mechanic. Vengeance is brokenly powerful in PvE as well, and with the 500% threat buff, entirely unnecessary. In my opinion bring the 33% down to 10% or something, but tanks do insane damage in PvE as well. It's just not necessary.
I don't see why people really care if Blood DK's damage is nerfed. It's too high without enrage dispels in PvP, and it's overall too high in PvE. Anyone defending Blood is arguing that it's not viable in arena anyways, so they shouldn't mind.
Okay, but, for everyone who argues Blood is fine, why should we not nerf vengeance anyways? It causes tank damage to be too high damage in PvE and would help make certain comps not get completely destroyed by Blood DKs, while if you're already claiming it's unviable in 'real PvP' would make no difference there. So where's the down side?
Blood will be just as strong as it was in 4.2, which I am absolutely fine with. It gives people a lot of time to breathe to employ strategies to kill the DK rather than just get run up to smacked in the face with a train and then told they should have kited it better.
So if it was already irrelevant to competitive PvP, and it was causing serious problems in two's, and there was an incredibly easy fix for the problems that did exist, what reason was there not to fix it? I agree that it's generally better to balance around higher levels of play, but if you can make an easy fix to low level play that would not effect high level play what-so-ever, why wouldn't you?
Sorry I already beat you to the quote-spamming myself to make my point clearer. Though at least I had multiple different posts.
Edit: And if you're against 2 stacked up blood dk's using Howling Blast (see: ANY AoE), you have no right to be discussing balance issues. That's again a problem with the player, not the mechanic.
This is adorable. I can play this game too. KITE THE BLOOD DK AND KILL HIM FROM RANGED, BUT DON'T USE YOUR RANGED ABILITY! HAMSTRING HIM BUT DON'T BE IN MELEE RANGE! SHIV VENGEANCE WHILE BEING A PALADIN!
Or I could play it differently.
And if you're running double Blood and getting kited to death you have no right to be discussing balance issues, That's again a problem with the player, not the mechanic.
Post by
Orranis
As for explaining
why
rogues are doing so much damage, we're all aware of it. It was a hypothetical discussion point I offered as a relief from people !@#$%ing about vengeance (see the actual context for more info).
Umm... Why? That's the point of my thread.
So going by your information from that post:
Blood needed to be nerfed because it was too strong in 2vs2 (Irrelevant)
It was also too strong at certain times in 3vs3 (False)
Ferals are one of the strongest tanks in rbg's (False)
RLS is relatively new (False)
Rogue damage is high becase of PvE gear (Obvious)
1. I've made my counterpoints clear. Unviable in threes as you've said thus has no ramifications in competitive PvP, serious problems in other places in PvP, QED only pro's to nerfing.
2. Triple Blood vs. TSG, if the triple Blood doesn't win they're morons.
3. Never said that. I said they had utility and that there was a point to bringing them, and perhaps you could say I implied they're better than Paladins. I said they were viable.
4. I said that the number and frequency of RLS teams is higher than it ever has been before by a huge margin.
5. That's not even correct. Even outside of Vial and Daggers they have too much utility, survivability, and burst to all be in one package and that Find Weakness and 25% MS combined with 20% AP turned a strong class intro an (dare I say incredibly) overpowered one.
All you've done here is misstate my points and then claim that there's some sort of completely objective scale on which I am wrong.
Watch, I can do it too:
All you've said is:
It's okay to kill poor people. (False)
I am stupid (True)
Sweet is the best kind of taste. (False)
Post by
b4xx
It had (and still has) a low learning curve, which basically makes it easier for bad bloods to kill
bad
players with ease.
Fixed that for ya. Now they aren't op tho, they're a joke now, just a distraction or a flag carrier.
Now it's correct.
Post by
250582
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
Sorry I already beat you to the quote-spamming myself to make my point clearer. Though at least I had multiple different posts.
That's fantastic, except your entire argument relied around not having a reasoning to nerf vengeance, which I already gave you. If you want to nerf blood dk's damage then nerf their damage, don't break the defensive capabilities of another tank.
You asked for a reason to keep vengeance, I've just given you one. Reducing the defenses of one of the worst represented tanking specs in rated battlegrounds because of the damage of another is just stupid.
My point though is that you're not 'breaking' Ferals. Even in an RBG situations they really don't have enough uptime on a player target for Savage Defense to come into play much, and in an arena situations they're actually gravitating towards balance rather than away from it. Even in PvE Savage Defense isn't a ginormous part of the Feral defensive toolkit. And honestly, I'd rather they balanced around arena, than RBGs, at least for Feral. They definitely don't need survivability buffs.
The problems with Blood DKs was only the most obvious one, Paladin, Warrior, and Bear defensive spec damage was still ridiculously high all around. If there was a way to nerf the damage of all these specs that didn't involve vengeance and didn't affect PvE I'd be fine with it, but seeing as that's not happening I'm in support of this change.
This is adorable. I can play this game too. KITE THE BLOOD DK AND KILL HIM FROM RANGED, BUT DON'T USE YOUR RANGED ABILITY! HAMSTRING HIM BUT DON'T BE IN MELEE RANGE! SHIV VENGEANCE WHILE BEING A PALADIN!
Charge -> Hamstring -> Kite (Charge provides a small window of time in which hamstring can be applied)
I hear DK's have death coil bro.
You also cant dispel curses with certain comps, should they be removed from the game?
Will a curse hit me for more than 40k as the most survivable spec in game? And assuming the DK has chains up on the Warrior he'll be moving just as fast if not faster.
And if you're running double Blood and getting kited to death you have no right to be discussing balance issues, That's again a problem with the player, not the mechanic.
Earthbind, Frost Nova, Freeze, Polymoprh, Hex, Thunderstorm, Frost shock, Deadly throw, CoE, Imp. Fear, CoI to name but a few.
Blood has no stun, no cc, no mobility and little ranged capability.
Stuns are CC. Just saying. Blood has Strangulate which is a very powerful CC against casters (and if you're going to argue it needs CC on melee... Yeah), MUCH more mobility than you give it credit for (I say this as a Blood DK, between Unholy Presence, Bone Shield if glyphed, and AMS it is just as mobile as a Frost DK, and between Death Grip, Chains of Ice, and Desecration if specced it's counter-mobility is decent and well), and more ranged capability than a warrior of any spec.
.
2. Triple Blood vs. TSG, if the triple Blood doesn't win they're morons.
My sincere apologies, I'm not playing at 1100mmr.
Pre-emptive edit before being called elitist for this: Triple blood is shockingly awful against almost every single comp imaginable. And if you're playing low enough to see triple blood as TSG, you're doing it wrong.
People have to get their from somewhere. It's true that the fact that it counters so few comps means it won't really go anywhere without the luck of the Gods, but it would really suck as a Warrior who's new to arena for his first PvP experience to get three shot by Death Strike before he can even pop Shield Wall. No other class counters what it does counter that hard.
3. Never said that. I said they had utility and that there was a point to bringing them, and perhaps you could say I implied they're better than Paladins. I said they were viable.
Untrue. Feral's still have some of the best passive magic and passive defense, extremely powerful cooldowns (Feral cooldowns are more powerful than Warrior cooldowns, though not as powerful as DK cooldowns), and the best pure mobility out of all the tank specs. They're nowhere near as lacking as say, Paladins, when it comes to FCing.
So, they have the best mobility and the second best defensive cooldowns. I think it's reasonable to take the leap here for you claiming them to be strong FC's? As for "possibly" implying that they're better than paladins, I'll re-quote it so you don't forget what you wrote again.
They're nowhere near as lacking as say, Paladins, when it comes to FCing.
That does explain why Yas gods, Gamesense, Sup maejt you jelly.. all run with a protection warrior amirite? With neither the best defense nor mobility, people must just like warriors best?
You still haven't explained this one by the way. I'm waiting.
Because it has the perfect balance of the two? Because it's mobility is less about getting across them map faster and more about getting into and out of hairy situations, which is more valuable at high levels of play? You will note I said pure mobility. It's ability to shift slows and it's travel form make it the best at getting across the field incredibly quickly and arguably tied with DKs at getting out of bad situations, but Warriors intervene, heroic leap, and resource-less charge could definitely be seen as more valuable in situations where you're trying to get through a wall of players in the middle ground. Sure, Paladins are worse FCs than Ferals. I'll admit I misspoke with the 'possibly.'
4. I said that the number and frequency of RLS teams is higher than it ever has been before by a huge margin.
Again, you've forgotten what it was you actually said it appears. Allow me to remind you.
RLS didn't rely heavily on switching before because it generally didn't exist before
To which I'll just remind you, the comp won IEM4
2 years ago
. Regardless of how popular it is, that has nothing to do with it's play style.
Jesus christ we were talking about Wrath? Because classes were entirely #$%^ing different in Wrath! What the hell point are you even trying to make here?
5. That's not even correct. Even outside of Vial and Daggers they have too much utility, survivability, and burst to all be in one package and that Find Weakness and 25% MS combined with 20% AP turned a strong class intro an (dare I say incredibly) overpowered one.
It's such a shame Blizzard added all those utility and survivability buffs to rogues in 4.3 right? I mean if they'd had them all throughout Cata they'd have been horrendously OP the entire time.
I will concede to forgetting the AP buff, but the entire discussion was on rogues damage and how it impacted the playstyle, making general OP claims is again, irrelevant.
They have always been as survivable as they are now, and had as much utility, but their burst and sustained damage was lackluster at the beginning of Cataclysm. Now they have huge amounts of burst, survivability, and utility, and that's not something one spec needs.
And actually, in a way they did. A huge portion of Rogue survivability comes from their ability to force teams to play incredibly defensively and the ability to do it so often.
But as you mentioned, it's irrelevant, so why in the hell do you keep trying to call me out on statements about it?
All you've done here is misstate my points and then claim that there's some sort of completely objective scale on which I am wrong.
Ooh this should be fun.
It was also too strong at certain times in 3vs3 (False)
And even 3v3 against certain comps.
Explain the misstatement.
Against certain comps. If a Triple or Double Blood loses to Ret DK Warr (not that I don't support counters to Ret DK Warr) or TSG loses to Double or Triple Blood they're clearly much much better than the team. Despite what you say, and I say this as a Blood DK, Blood DKs actually have a decent amount of mobility between Unholy Presence and Bone Shield if glyphed plus AMS making you unpeelable, and decent counter-mobility between a ranged slow, desecration if you pick it up, and Death Grip. They should be able to make mincemeat out of most meleecleaves, and at least turtle Kittycleave for a very long period of time.
Ferals are one of the strongest tanks in rbg's (False)
Untrue. Feral's still have some of the best passive magic and passive defense, extremely powerful cooldowns (Feral cooldowns are more powerful than Warrior cooldowns, though not as powerful as DK cooldowns), and the best pure mobility out of all the tank specs.
That again, seems like a relatively logical assumption to make based off what you said.
Relatively logical as compared to what, the rest of the don't nerf Vengeance QQ? Relatively logical implies it's logical only under certain conditions. Or rather, not logical. Either way, it's not what I meant to say.
RLS is relatively new (False)
RLS didn't rely heavily on switching before because it generally didn't exist before
However could I have not understood this one?
Because generally is a word, and it's also a word in that sentence. If that doesn't make clear what I meant to say, than I also told you what I meant, but it's also on a completely moot point that is entirely off-topic that really only serves as a strawman and a goal-post move.
Post by
250582
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
As I said, we agree on fundamentals. The only difference we have is that you think it's worse to nerf specs rather than teach people to play assuming they exist, I think it's worse to have a spec that doesn't require people to learn how to play.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Nathanyal
It had (and still has) a low learning curve, which basically makes it easier for bad bloods to kill players with ease.
Fixed that for ya. Now they aren't op tho, they're a joke now, just a distraction or a flag carrier.
You don't enchant and you use weapon imbues for aesthetics, you're still getting face rolled by dks.
I use frostbrand because it's awesome for kiting, and I faceroll blood dks now. Problem?
Problem is you couldn't do it before the nerf to Veng while everyone else could.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Nathanyal
It had (and still has) a low learning curve, which basically makes it easier for bad bloods to kill players with ease.
Fixed that for ya. Now they aren't op tho, they're a joke now, just a distraction or a flag carrier.
You don't enchant and you use weapon imbues for aesthetics, you're still getting face rolled by dks.
I use frostbrand because it's awesome for kiting, and I faceroll blood dks now. Problem?
Problem is you couldn't do it before the nerf to Veng while everyone else could.
Is that why everyone else was complaining that they were overpowered?
The only ones complaining were the ones who couldn't beat them. Those of us that knew how to play could beat them and weren't complaining they were overpowered. I never once saw someone say " I can easily beat blood DKs but they still need to be nerfed anyway". I saw them say "I cant beat blood DKs and they pwn me, plz nerf them blizz QQ".
Post by
Meldoron
I complained about Blood dk because I played on my poorly geared blood dk when I was bored. When a pathetically geared player in a non-viable spec can score a minimum of 25 kbs and be top damage every bg, there is something wrong. Troll healers with 65k crits was hilarious, but unholy is still more fun overall to me, so I don't miss blood pvp.
Post by
870547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
682479
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
250582
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
The only ones complaining were the ones who couldn't beat them. Those of us that knew how to play could beat them and weren't complaining they were overpowered. I never once saw someone say " I can easily beat blood DKs but they still need to be nerfed anyway". I saw them say "I cant beat blood DKs and they pwn me, plz nerf them blizz QQ".
So I did some research on you based on the elitism I found in your post. Judging by your Wowhead Characters, you have four 85's. Three of them have ever won an arena. One of them has broken thirty wins. Zero of them have broken 1500. Zero of them have positive win/loss ratios, the lowest being 0% and the highest being 49%. All four of them are counters to Blood DKs.
All of the OP's characters are doing better than you in this regard. I usually don't try and armory bash, but when people play at elitism at the level of play you participate in, I think its warranted when you start to call other players out on their personal skill and level of play.
Don't throw bladed grenades if you live in a glass house and have a heart condition.
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