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DOTD - Debate of The Day #52
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Post by
Squishalot
I'm going to say no, as it is an invasion of privacy. It is forcing the student to do something they may not feel comfortable doing, whether or not they actually do drugs.
How is it different from breath-testing them before letting them into school functions?
I'd be more concerned about how they determine who is getting tested and screened and the process by which that's done, rather than the actual testing itself.
Post by
Atik
How is it different from breath-testing them before letting them into school functions?
I can't say as though I've ever seen that done.
And again, students attending school functions have the option to just not attend if it makes them uncomfortable to be tested.
Randomly testing all students all the time? They have no option to avoid it, no matter how uncomfortable it may be for them.
Post by
FatalHeaven
I went to a school that did school wide random drug tests. They started doing such about two years before I entered the school. It wasn't a huge breach on privacy. It was completely random and computer generated. I think I may have heard my name once in four years. It wasn't embarrassing; a simple 15 second mouth swap which was then sent to a local doctors office/lab for testing.The only people at school or in town for that matter that ever caused a big deal about it were either students or family of students who tested positive. In the time since they implemented the policy, grades and attendance increased, while violence outbreaks on campus decreased. Go figure.
My daughter is seven currently and quite a way from high school but once she is there, I would have no problem with it being implemented, for two reasons. For one, I do not believe she would ever do drugs. Or drink or smoke for that matter. Thats not me being biased, that is simply based on comments she makes when others drink, smoke or speak of drugs. Secondly, if when she gets older she is dumb enough to do drugs, she deserves any 'breach of privacy' being tested might make her feel. I love her but I have a zero tolerance for drugs. I'm not saying I expect any school to do the testing for me. As, I may very well test her periodically myself as well. But I wouldn't be offended or appalled if a school did. I entrust my child to them. All they are doing is taking an even bigger step forward in an attempt to keep her in a drug free environment.
Post by
Atik
It wasn't a huge breach on privacy. It was completely random and computer generated. I think I may have heard my name once in four years. It wasn't embarrassing; a simple 15 second mouth swap which was then sent to a local doctors office/lab for testing
Do you understand that there are people with paranoias of such things? Who literally have panic attacks at the thought of someone testing them like that (Or in any way)?
What is the school to do about them? Tell them to suck it up? Immediately label them as druggies and expel them?
Post by
Orranis
Drug testing students is entirely unnecessary and invasive. If they have a drug problem, it will become apparent without having them tested.
I wanted to emphasize this. If it's not a problem than I don't see why it's necessary, if it is a problem it can really only be labeled as a problem once it starts reflecting on their other behavior, at which point you don't need a drug test any more.
Post by
FatalHeaven
It wasn't a huge breach on privacy. It was completely random and computer generated. I think I may have heard my name once in four years. It wasn't embarrassing; a simple 15 second mouth swap which was then sent to a local doctors office/lab for testing
Do you understand that there are people with paranoias of such things? Who literally have panic attacks at the thought of someone testing them like that (Or in any way)?
What is the school to do about them? Tell them to suck it up? Immediately label them as druggies and expel them?
At the school I attended, if you refused it wasn't nearly an automatic expulsion or even suspension. They would call in your parents and discuss it from there. Honestly, beyond calling the parents in, I don't know what happened since I never refused nor did any of my friends.
Yes, I understand people have paranoias. People also get over them. Yes, I'm harsh. But I'm okay with that. Policy is policy. Not to mention that I am sure if it was THAT severe, it wouldn't be hard to get some sort of medical documentation to supply the school as to why the test is being refused. In which case I would think, though I admit I'm not 100%, the school would make exceptions.
Post by
FatalHeaven
Drug testing students is entirely unnecessary and invasive. If they have a drug problem, it will become apparent without having them tested.
I wanted to emphasize this. If it's not a problem than I don't see why it's necessary, if it is a problem it can really only be labeled as a problem once it starts reflecting on their other behavior, at which point you don't need a drug test any more.
Okay but say a school wants to call an expulsion hearing based on the fact a kid came out of the bathroom and it appeared evident he had used.
Lets first go with your logic. No test. How far would that hearing get?
Now lets assume, that as a student was coming out of a bathroom appearing to have used, the school automatically has him take a drug test. How far would THAT hearing get?
Albeit, this isn't going along the line of the random drug testing I had been referring to. But would drug testing in this scenario be acceptable per your standards?
Personally I'd rather just have random testing that encourages kids to stay sober since they don't know when the test would be. Lesser of two evils in my own opinion.
Post by
Atik
In that event, it isn't random at all.
However, I would STILL be against the kid being forced to take a drug test, as I feel it would still be an invasion of privacy. The evidence is there to support him having used the drugs, and can be used in the hearing towards him being expelled.
If everyone was 100% convinced he had used the drugs, then he could very well suggest giving him a drug test to prove his innocence (or lack there of). But in no way should he be forced to.
As I said NOONE as it stands is forced to take drug tests. Sports players can choose not to play the sports, people going into certain jobs can choose not to take those jobs, noone is forcing the tests on them.
And, simply put, I am convinced that is how it should stay.
Post by
Ksero
No, definitely not. I would say 60-70% of my high-school had used drugs at least a few times over 4 years i was in high school, and i was in the cleanest school in the region drug-wise, of that 60-70% most went on to university or college, the ones that didn't went to jobs within the family. You seem to have an attitude that trying drugs will destroy your life, while that may be true with some like MPDV and meth, things like weed won't mess up your life unless you let them, random drug tests will do nothing but ruin peoples future in school. It has already been said, if drug use becomes a problem, the drug test isn't even necessary.
Post by
Sas148
Ok, I am not arguing the point with you, I am just saying I read the "YOUR OWN". I am prepared to concede that maybe I read that wrong. Lets leave that for sas148 to answer.
Moving on, Adam didn't have an answer, but what are peoples thoughts on those who want to end their suffering, but physically are not capable of "pushing the button" themselves?
I suppose technically speaking I was referring to either option. I don't think it's my place to say no to suicide or assisted suicide. However, my statement was primarily in relation to assisted suicide.
Post by
Sas148
I don't think a student should be required to undergo drug testing with an exception, possibly, for those who receive federal/state financial aid.
Post by
FatalHeaven
No, definitely not. I would say 60-70% of my high-school had used drugs at least a few times over 4 years i was in high school, and i was in the cleanest school in the region drug-wise, of that 60-70% most went on to university or college, the ones that didn't went to jobs within the family.
You seem to have an attitude that trying drugs will destroy your life, while that may be true with some like MPDV and meth, things like weed won't mess up your life unless you let them, random drug tests will do nothing but ruin peoples future in school.
It has already been said, if drug use becomes a problem, the drug test isn't even necessary.
I have, in ElhonnaDS' QOTD thread, mentioned how against drugs I am, ALL recreational drugs, including weed. I have never done any of it nor will I ever. But it runs in my family. Both my parents and my brother. Today, my parents are clean. As far as my brother, who knows, I don't speak to him. Want to know what it started with for my brother? Marijuana. Want to know what happens when you do so much weed so often that you no longer feel the high? You're body makes you crave for a stronger high. What happens when you want a stronger high? You get into worse drugs. What happens when you get into worse drugs? It ruins yours, and everyone around you's lives.
Drug tests don't ruin your life or your future. Drugs do. Including weed. You do the drug, not the person doing the test.
Edit: As far as the "..unless you let them." part of your response. I realize not 100% of people who smoke weed will in fact move on to worse drugs. But a damn scary amount of them do.
Post by
Atik
Drug tests don't ruin your life or your future.
Unless they find you positive.
At which point, all they care about is the drugs. All the media cares about is the drugs. All your parents care about is the drugs.
Straight A student without a single problem ever? They don't care.
Post by
FatalHeaven
Drug tests don't ruin your life or your future.
Unless they find you positive.
At which point, all they care about is the drugs. All the media cares about is the drugs. All your parents care about is the drugs.
Straight A student without a single problem ever? They don't care.
Again,
the drugs,
and
you
doing them ruined your life. Not the drug test. The drug test just brings light to the issue. It didn't cause the issue. It isn't the tests fault you did drugs.
Post by
Orranis
Drug tests don't ruin your life or your future.
Unless they find you positive.
At which point, all they care about is the drugs. All the media cares about is the drugs. All your parents care about is the drugs.
Straight A student without a single problem ever? They don't care.
Again,
the drugs,
and
you
doing them ruined your life. Not the drug test. The drug test just brings light to the issue. It didn't cause the issue. It isn't the tests fault you did drugs.
The question is if their lives would have been ruined otherwise. I started smoking pot in seventh grade and only smoked very infrequently in freshman high school year, due to a mix of raiding and schoolwork. I don't think I've smoked since last summer, having just graduated from sophomore, until today (though I'm not in school anymore woo summer). Funnily enough, my grades have scaled inversely, though I'm still a mix of B's and A's and like a C+ in Latin. I've never come close to getting caught by an authority figure (though I have admit it to my parents, who didn't seem to overly mind assuming it doesn't affect the rest of my life).
The issues with 'soft' drugs (as opposed to hard drugs) are not really the drugs themselves as much as the people you might be doing them with or how they affect the rest of your life. Drug tests do not bring to light the issues, maybe had you been having issues they could bring to light (no one's noticed the pun yet?) the cause. The issue is not drugs, it's how they affect your life, and a drug test does nothing for that.
Post by
Ksero
No, definitely not. I would say 60-70% of my high-school had used drugs at least a few times over 4 years i was in high school, and i was in the cleanest school in the region drug-wise, of that 60-70% most went on to university or college, the ones that didn't went to jobs within the family.
You seem to have an attitude that trying drugs will destroy your life, while that may be true with some like MPDV and meth, things like weed won't mess up your life unless you let them, random drug tests will do nothing but ruin peoples future in school.
It has already been said, if drug use becomes a problem, the drug test isn't even necessary.
I have, in ElhonnaDS' QOTD thread, mentioned how against drugs I am, ALL recreational drugs, including weed. I have never done any of it nor will I ever. But it runs in my family. Both my parents and my brother. Today, my parents are clean. As far as my brother, who knows, I don't speak to him. Want to know what it started with for my brother? Marijuana. Want to know what happens when you do so much weed so often that you no longer feel the high? You're body makes you crave for a stronger high. What happens when you want a stronger high? You get into worse drugs. What happens when you get into worse drugs? It ruins yours, and everyone around you's lives.
Drug tests don't ruin your life or your future. Drugs do. Including weed. You do the drug, not the person doing the test.
Edit: As far as the "..unless you let them." part of your response. I realize not 100% of people who smoke weed will in fact move on to worse drugs. But a damn scary amount of them do.
Im assuming you don't know many marijuana users, well i do, and believe me 95% of them would never touch any kind of harder drug. Of the 5% who do maybe 1 of the 5% will stay with the harder drugs, the other 4 will say its too much to handle and either (A) quit drugs altogether or (B) go back to weed. People from Canada tend to smoke weed, and stick with it, when they dont feel the high, they stop for a month, or a year, or for the rest of their lives.
Regarding drugs/drug tests ruining your life, Atik and Orranis have already answered that.
Post by
Nathanyal
I have done weed once. It was after a long night of work and I went over to the guys house. I haven't had any cravings to smoke weed and this was about 2-3 years ago. And this isn't because I can't get weed, because my dad has been smoking since he was 16. He is now 57.
Now I'm not sure what all kinds of drugs he done, but I believe he has done acid. But since I was born he only has smoke weed. Smoking doesn't make him crazy or anything, it just mellows him out. And for a lot of people that is all they smoke it for. In the last 20 years he has never been to a doctor, and the only pills he takes are vitamins.
Drugs don't always ruin lives.
As for schools testing them. I personally don't really care. The larger schools might do it, but I went to a small school and we never really had a problem with it. The last time I remember something happening was last year when a few kids were caught coming back to school after leaving during lunch to go smoke some spice.
Post by
asakawa
If someone created a pill in a lab that had all the effects of alcohol on the human system except didn't cause liver (or other health) problems most western governments would seek to ban it as quickly as they could.
If I took various drugs in my school years then who would have been served by my getting into legal trouble. I did work for a year after school then went on to university and then into a career. If I'd got into trouble in school for taking drugs would my life have taken that positive path?
There are lots of issues surrounding the taking of drugs and further issues when the people taking drugs are young but I don't see anyone in society is better off when the users of drugs are demonised. I know that UK drug policy is in an awful state where none of the legislation is evidence-based at all. The approach to drug should be pragmatic, measured and caring to those who have issues with addiction.
I can drink a Jack Daniels and ginger (om nom nom) without developing any social or addiction issues. Some people can't (and they should be cared for as anyone else with a psychological condition would be) but that doesn't mean that JD is bad, that I'm bad for drinking it or that a shop is bad for selling it to me.
If marijuana is a gateway drug to harder drugs then is that because people who take it really do crave a higher high or is it because society criminalises them all equally?
I play games in a guild with several people from the Netherlands. Several of them take marijuana but none of them have any problems in their life caused by this. In fact one seems to have more problems due to too much gaming than anything drug related. The point is that the way society deals with these things makes them an issue (or not).
I just realised I'm a touch off topic here actually. TL;DR - I think it's terribly wrong to make students undergo drug tests.
Post by
gamerunknown
I don't think we'd end up with fewer drug users. I think we'd end up with fewer educated drug users.
In the time since they implemented the policy, grades and attendance increased, while violence outbreaks on campus decreased.
This is deriving causation from correlation.
You get into worse drugs.
Slippery slope.
Post by
134377
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