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Organized Religion, the Bible and the Will of God
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Post by
Gone
I guess going directly against the deceased's wishes can be construed as disrespectful. But I also think, for an atheist or anybody else who doesn't believe that what happens to their body effects them in an afterlife, denying a wish that wouldn't effect you at all, and would give some measure of comfort to your family, is selfish.
All I'm saying is that the flip side is equally selfish. Elura makes a really fundamental point - what if you don't want to spend an eternity with God? What if baptising a Muslim means he doesn't get his eternal salvation?
Like I said, I was speaking form the perspective of somebody who doesn't believe that what happens to your body after death makes a difference in eternity.
Post by
Squishalot
I don't know. I know very little about Islamic beliefs in the afterlife. That would be something to ask a Muslim.
Would it be disrespectful to baptise anybody for whom you know little about their beliefs in the afterlife then?
I would point you at my original post (a reply to Asakawa, no Adamsm), which is clearly asking a question dealing with idea of "a being that has ceased to exist." I was as clear and succinct as I could be with that question. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it might have anything to do with a set of beliefs that holds existence after death.
I meant when you were continuing to discuss with Adamsm. But fair enough in relation to asakawa.
Like I said, I was speaking form the perspective of somebody who doesn't believe that what happens to your body after death makes a difference in eternity.
Same question as posed above to HSR then - what about people that you don't know?
Post by
Aimsyr
Some questions for religious people here, not trying to cause any offence, I would be interested in hearing your perspectives:
Is baptism after death enough to excuse absolutely anyone of their sins? Hypothetically speaking, if I killed someone in cold blood without any provocation whatsoever, would baptism be enough to "cleanse" me of my sins and grant me passage into heaven? What if I killed several hundred people in cold blood, would that be any different?
Likewise, how do you feel about deathbed confessions? Is it enough to excuse all your crimes in life?
If yes to the above, why make the distinction between heaven and hell? Is it simply to separate those who have been "saved" from those who have not?
Post by
Gone
@Squish
Not only disrespectful, but I think it should be illegal as it violates their freedom of religion.
@XD4
Is baptism after death enough to excuse absolutely anyone of their sins? Hypothetically speaking, if I killed someone in cold blood without any provocation whatsoever, would baptism be enough to "cleanse" me of my sins and grant me passage into heaven? What if I killed several hundred people in cold blood, would that be any different?
No.
Likewise, how do you feel about deathbed confessions? Is it enough to excuse all your crimes in life?
Yes, if the person is truly remorseful and sincere, remember Christ saved a criminal dying next to him on the cross who repented.
Post by
Squishalot
Not only disrespectful, but I think it should be illegal as it violates their freedom of religion.
How does that change for people you do know then? Where is the line that you draw?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Would it be disrespectful to baptise anybody for whom you know little about their beliefs in the afterlife then?
I think you're confusing my line of inquiry. I'm not talking about disrespecting people's beliefs. I'm speaking about reality. If the typical atheist position of absolutely no afterlife is true... If the Christian view is true.... If the Muslim view is true... and so on. There is no point in which I'm considering that it might be
offensive
pertinent to one dead person but not another.
Post by
Aimsyr
Likewise, how do you feel about deathbed confessions? Is it enough to excuse all your crimes in life?
Yes, if the person is truly remorseful and sincere, remember Christ saved a criminal dying next to him on the cross who repented.
No matter how severe the crime? Pulling numbers out of thing air here, but would it still apply if they say wiped out half the Earth's population? Or would some form of punishment still ensue?
Post by
Gone
Not only disrespectful, but I think it should be illegal as it violates their freedom of religion.
How does that change for people you do know then? Where is the line that you draw?
It doesn't change for anybody. My point was that if you are an atheist, or a Christian who believes as I do, then there is no reason not to let your family do what they want with you after you're dead. Legally I'm pretty sure that if you leave a will saying what you want done with your body, then that's what is going to be done with it. Assuming your estate pays for it at least, if your family is paying for the burial, then I think there is some leeway.
Post by
asakawa
@asakawa
I notice you kind of take things like this personally, when you believe religion may impact or influence what you believe is your own, even if it's in an arbitrary sense. I remember you got offended when MyTie said that marriage was something he believed was designed by God, like it somehow detracted from your own marriage.
The marriage thing I took personally, my relationship with my wife is the most important thing in my life. I can't remember the specific point of the other discussion but, yeah, I had a personal stake in the conversation. This, for me, is just an interesting point. Have I sounded especially passionate?
The idea of religions baptising the dead was tangential or illustrative of the point I was trying to make which was that I often feel that religions -
in fact I should be specific and say Catholicism here because that's been my personal experience and I don't know if this applies to other religions
- want to lay claim to people in a way that I see as... unseemly at best. I was raised and educated in Catholic schools. I was baptised before I could speak and confirmed before I could think - at no point was I offered alternative options or encouraged to think anything other than what I was told. I thought (perhaps wrongly, I'm very willing to admit) that the Pope was suggesting something similar.
This
, it's fair to say, is a point of passion for me. The side-thought about baptising the dead, not at all. It's just interesting.
We're getting two angles here though; one saying that their faith is their own and can't be altered by others, presumably before or after death; the other saying that if one doesn't belong to the club that gives credence to practices then one has no need to be concerned with them.
For me, I have no wish for people who know me to spend years wearing black and weeping over me when I'm gone but it would sadden me to think that I was so misunderstood or so bereft of respect for my views when alive, that anyone who knew me would seek to do something like that. I'm not in the club that sees baptism as important or meaningful, but as a living person thinking about how the people I love will deal with my death, I find the idea horrifying.
To be a little clearer (perhaps) If some church in America read my obituary and decided to take it on themselves to save my soul then,
that
, I don't care about.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Magician22773
What if baptising a Muslim means he doesn't get his eternal salvation?
This would imply that both religions views of God and the afterlife are "valid", and I do not think you will find many people on either side that would feel that way.
I guess that is a big part of what I like about Christianity. You (or anyone else) cannot alter my relationship with God, in this world, or after I leave it. Perform whatever ritual you like on my body after I am gone if it makes you feel better. I still know where I will be.
And thats a big part of what I don't like about Catholicism, or any other "Christian" religion that believes that works, either by me, or for me, play any part in my salvation. For starters, it is in direct opposition to Jesus's own words,
and
that is a pretty heavy burden to lay at the feet of the family and friends of someone who has died. If you don't perform the right ritual, say the right prayer, or bury the body just right, then that person may not have salvation.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
If you don't perform the right ritual, say the right prayer, or bury the body just right, then that person may not have salvation.
That's not even remotely Catholic in nature, just FYI.
Post by
Magician22773
If you don't perform the right ritual, say the right prayer, or bury the body just right, then that person may not have salvation.
That's not even remotely Catholic in nature, just FYI.
Yes, I realize that. That is more associated with Islamic, and even to some extent Jewish religions that focus a lot of attention on preparation of the body and who and where it is buried.
Post by
Gone
If you don't perform the right ritual, say the right prayer, or bury the body just right, then that person may not have salvation.
That's not even remotely Catholic in nature, just FYI.
Yes, I realize that. That is more associated with Islamic, and even to some extent Jewish religions that focus a lot of attention on preparation of the body and who and where it is buried.
Actually there isn't even really a consensus in the Jewish community on if there is a Heaven and a Hell. Well there is a belief in Heaven as a place where God and his Angels live, and something called Sheol, which translates either to a pit, cave, or cavern, or 'land of the shades'. But there isn't a clear consensus on whether or not people go to Heaven when they die.
Depending on who you ask you will get an answer ranging from yes, to maybe.
Post by
Nathanyal
Seeing as the previous discussion is diminishing, I have a question about divorce for Catholics.
Several years ago my grandmother and grandfather split up, and my grandmother is very Catholic in her beliefs. She mentioned something about yes they are divorced, but she couldn't marry again because of her being Catholic and having to go through some kind of process for it.
I'm not really sure what she meant by that and was wondering if HsR could explain it for me. I'm sure I could look it up, but I figure this way it would be a little simpler.
Post by
Adamsm
They have to get a full on Annulment, which would then state that the marriage never existed in the first place.
Post by
Nathanyal
Ah okay. Do you know why that is?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Yes, there is no divorce as far as sacramental marriage is concerned (you can obviously get a civil divorce). What can happen is an annulment, where a tribunal (a Catholic court) can determine if a marriage can be constituted invalid and annulled.
This
gives a list of things that a tribunal would look to to determine if a marriage was invalid. The verdict essentially would state that the sacrament of marriage never took place due to some impediment that was not known at the time.
Post by
Nathanyal
Damn, the Catholics sure take their marriages seriously.
But they probably don't uphold all of the rules, like most other things in the Bible, though. Such as "They can only marry if they intend on having children".
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I am really, really confident that nothing happens after your dead, so I'm not really concerned with what happens to my body after I'm dead.
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