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WoD: Balanced storyline for both factions?
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Post by
Skreeran
Again though, I'd happily concede you center stage if it was a whole expansion about killing Night Elves or Dwarves or whatever and the Horde got to be the good guys again.
I fell in love with the Horde in Warcraft 3, back when it was Thrall's band of outcasts trying to secure a place in the world. They didn't always make the right choices, but really, they were just trying to do the best the could in a world that was trying to keep them down. If I could have that back, I'd give you every city/raid/book/expansion we have.
You lost Theramore.
We lost the whole Horde.
Post by
Rankkor
From everything we see, once again and orc is the centerpiece
I disagree. Pretty much half the zones in Draenor are Draenei centric.
Not to mention the only "good" (as in, GETS TO LIVE) figure to show up on the trailer was Velen.
Grom Hellscream
The same idiot i spent half of the orc campaign saving from his own @#$%ups.
You know, that has always irked me. In the game, grom really was an idiot, an orc version of Leeroy Jenkins, but in the books, OH.MY.GOD, he was not just a true badass, he was one hell of a fantastic orc, and a supremely well written character. He was more than just unstoppable (not a single alliance hero ever so much as nicked him, let alone defeat him) he was also incredibly cunning, smart, a tactical genius, extremely genre savvy, very honorable, and put the safety of his people as his number one priority. This can be seen all the time in both Beyond the Dark Portal (the book) and in Lord of the Clans. Even in Rise of the Horde this core of his character was preserved, he had a lust for battle yes, but also the drive to keep his people safe, and the tenacity to avoid making so many stupid screwups.
Heavy HEAVY contrast with the character we see in war3. the orc who's first appearance was to be captured by alliance (how the hell did that happened? he fought an entire army with less than 50 units in blasted lands AND WON), who fell for the most obvious traps, who was brash and hot headed with zero regard for tactics, and who brazenly drank from demon blood AGAIN when in previous books not only he deeply regret having done so in the first place, he made it a point to state that he never makes the same mistake twice.
its almost as if the producers of warcraft 3 weren't exactly on the same page as the book authors, because Grom is two completely different characters in war3 and in the other books he showed on.
He narates the whole thing
The Lich King narrated the whole WOTLK trailer. Didn't see you complaining back then. Deathwing narrated the cataclysm cinematic, didn't saw you complaining about that one either. Its not so uncommon to have an antagonist narrating trailers. This even goes for patches, since Zul'jin narrated the Zul'aman trailer, and Kael'thas narrated the sunwell patch.
he's the last guy you see in the trailer
I'll get back to you on this in a little bit.
all but 3 of the characters on the site are orcs.
I already told you, so? all but ONE character in the site is non-alliance and non-antagonist. All of those orcs, are targets we have to kill, and the only exception is Durotan. Everyone else is either alliance, or an enemy. So what if Grom is the first and last character we see in the trailer? he's an antagonist. meanwhile, velen shows up on it, but did any playable, friendly, New Horde-aligned character shows up? nah.
To put this in perspective, to help you see where skree, morgrinar, myself and many upset horde fans are coming from: How would you feel, if the next expansions showed on the website, full frontal row and center
Uther, Lothar, Turalyon, Alleria, Trollbane, Kur'dran, Arthas, Varian, Muradin, Vol'jin, Nazgrel, Sylvanas.
And out of that line-up, as you saw, 3 of them are horde, therefore your enemy, only one of them (varian) is aligned with you, and EVERYONE ELSE IS AN ANTAGONIST. They're not lists of protagonists you'll be working with, they're a list of targets you have to kill.
Would you feel happy about that? would you gladly welcome that change? would you openly embrace what it feels like to be "the center" of the expansion, when Center = big giant bullseye on your rear end?
Trust me, the Draenei are just a second thought to keep alliance from leaving altogether.
I've half a mind to bookmark this, then when proven wrong and you see just how big a role the draenei have, make you eat these words :P
Care to make a wager? I'm willing to bet for you a Pierre Pet (I'm an engineer) that this will not happen. Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? Pets are cross-realm, I could easily make a toon on whatever realm you tell me, and personally handle you a pierre pet, complete with screenshot on this very forum admiting I was wrong. Are you willing to make the same bet/compromise?
So.... are you willing to do it? are you willing to prove there's more to your words than just simple words? willing to back up your claims with something a little more solid? Or are you afraid that you're not as right as you think? Because I am so utterly convinced I'm willing to put something valuable on the line for it.
Post by
Monday
I think platy is just annoyed at how much screen time the orcs are getting. I kind of have to agree. The Horde is more than orcs. I'd gladly see more of the Tauren or how the Blood Elves are doing, now.
Post by
Adamsm
A: Thrall is not listed as a major player in this expansion, his story centers around his interaction with his ancestors, but that's about it. Velen is listed as a major player, and his story centers around actually fighting the iron horde.I just have this funny feeling, in the same place that allowed me to properly predict the Undead Onyxia, the addition of the Dragonmaw to the Horde, and a few of the other things I've gotten right over the years =P.
Post by
RipperGand
From everything we see, once again and orc is the centerpiece,
Grom Hellscream
The same idiot i spent half of the orc campaign saving from his own @#$%ups.
He narates the whole thing, he's the last guy you see in the trailer, all but 3 of the characters on the site are orcs.
Trust me, the Draenei are just a second thought to keep alliance from leaving altogether.
Thank you! You put my words in a direct, simple sense.
Adding to this, I see a lot of bias and fanboy-ism involved in the replies above.
Remember to stay neutral and evaluate this without feeling like you're the lawyer of the Alliance or of the Horde. Arguments like
The Lich King narrated the whole WOTLK trailer. Didn't see you complaining back then. Deathwing narrated the cataclysm cinematic, didn't saw you complaining about that one either.
are unnecessary and biased. Let's keep it civil and neutral, yes? I see by the name that you're an avid fan of orcs, but perhaps you're being blind to what others are saying and merely focusing on attacking right away, rather than thinking "maybe they have a point". I, on my hand, have already said you made some good points. Perhaps you could be a little more flexible?
Let's keep it civil, gentlemen!
Post by
Rankkor
I think platy is just annoyed at how much screen time the orcs are getting.
Why? their entire screen time consists of getting butchered by the thousands. Considering how much he enjoys killing orcs, I would had guessed he would like that, not hate it.
The Horde is more than orcs. I'd gladly see more of the Tauren or how the Blood Elves are doing, now.
Well, MoP showed a lot of extra lore for the Trolls, Blood Elves, and a little for the goblins too. The forsaken was pretty much the only horde race that didn't had anything interesting happening to them.
A: Thrall is not listed as a major player in this expansion, his story centers around his interaction with his ancestors, but that's about it. Velen is listed as a major player, and his story centers around actually fighting the iron horde.I just have this funny feeling, in the same place that allowed me to properly predict the Undead Onyxia, the addition of the Dragonmaw to the Horde, and a few of the other things I've gotten right over the years =P.
Meh, that was.......... ok you were spot on when guessing those xD but I got a feeling this one is about to shift in a different direction.
Remember to stay neutral and evaluate this without feeling like you're the lawyer of the Alliance or of the Horde. Arguments like
The Lich King narrated the whole WOTLK trailer. Didn't see you complaining back then. Deathwing narrated the cataclysm cinematic, didn't saw you complaining about that one either.
are unnecessary and biased.
Why? he pointed out that Grom narrated the WoD trailer. I pointed out how the Lich king narrated the Wrath trailer, and Terenas narrated the Cinematic, as well as the 3.3 trailer, as well as the ending.
It seems when humans are the ones narrating stuff he doesn't mind, but hey, let an orc do anything and suddenly the game is all about horde, and the alliance are just an afterthought. Even though in the list of heroes for WoD only 1 of them is horde (Durotan) and 3 are alliance (Velen, Maraad, Kadghar) while everyone else, while they're orcs, they're enemies we have to defeat.
Let's keep it civil and neutral, yes? I see by the name that you're an avid fan of orcs, but perhaps you're being blind to what others are saying and merely focusing on attacking right away, rather than thinking "maybe they have a point".
Let's keep it civil, gentlemen!
I have been civil, as far as I know, attacking would be to openly insult someone, calling names, or dismissing someone's point with a simple "you're biased, you're wrong, I'm right"
Every time I debunk someone's point (be it yours, or platypus's point) I offer a reason for why, I don't just say "you're wrong, just cuz I say so, end of story". While I am passionate (sometimes a tad bit too much) when discussing the lore of the game, I do my best to shy away from bashing my opponents, because that's just not fun.
I, on my hand, have already said you made some good points. Perhaps you could be a little more flexible?
I am flexible when the points opposite to mine are reasonable, and in fact if you check my review of MoP, I conceded that the alliance players had valid concerns regarding the little focus received in MoP.
It is true they received very little focus, HOWEVER, the grass is NOT greener on the other side, because the attention given to the horde, was extremely negative, it was a downright depressing story. Imagine someone taking something you love and beating the living pulp out of it. Would you like that? or the status quo to remain the same? its about the lesser of two evils, and as far as I'm concerned, the alliance could had have it waaaaay worse. How? they could had gotten OUR story, and have their faction battered and beaten, their city invaded, their leaders either killed off or deposed, fan loved characters killed, etc etc etc.
But asking to be flexible just for the sake of being flexible even when someone is blatantly saying things like "WoD is all candy for the horde" when in reality its just another "kill a billion orcs" expansion is asking too much.
Post by
Adamsm
Meh, that was.......... ok you were spot on when guessing those xD but I got a feeling this one is about to shift in a different direction.All depends on who the main view point character is of the next book...if it's Thrall again, we have the true answer =P.
Post by
Rankkor
Meh, that was.......... ok you were spot on when guessing those xD but I got a feeling this one is about to shift in a different direction.All depends on who the main view point character is of the next book...if it's Thrall again, we have the true answer =P.
not necessarily.
Prior to cataclysm there were three books. One centered around malfurion, one centered around varian and one that didn't had a central character and was equal screentime for Anduin, Baine, Cairne, Garrosh, Thrall, and Moira.
Prior to MoP there was only one book with Jaina as a central figure.
In neither case was Malfurion, varian or jaina the sole focus of the expansion (though Varian and Jaina were undeniably the focus of the alliance side)
Just because a book will have X or Y character as protagonist doesn't mean the next expansion will have that character as central focus. For all we know, the protagonist of the next book could be *shudder in disgust* Garrosh, to explain how he escapes from his trial, as well as to wrap up the story of MoP and show exactly what sort of reparations or negotiations the alliance and horde make to establish a lasting peace. Such as the liberation of Gilneas, and the liberation of the blood elf hostages by jaina.
Post by
Adamsm
Stormrage was about the end of the Nightmare War, which set up Malfurion's quest lines in the Cata zones and the war in Hyjal.
Thrall in Twilight of the Aspects was all about him taking the center stage.
Tides of War was why Jaina had suddenly got off her ass and started being a war figure.
Wolfheart was about why Varian's rage and bloodlust suddenly vanished, which is what set up him up for MoP.
And of course, Shadows of the Horde, which was the set up for Vol'jin to take the reins of the Horde.
The books set the tone Rank; if Thrall ends up the main character, I have a feeling we are gonna see a repeat of the Dragon Soul.
Post by
Rankkor
Stormrage was about the end of the Nightmare War, which set up Malfurion's quest lines in the Cata zones and the war in Hyjal.
Thrall in Twilight of the Aspects was all about him taking the center stage.
Tides of War was why Jaina had suddenly got off her ass and started being a war
figure
criminal.
Wolfheart was about why Varian's rage and bloodlust suddenly vanished, which is what set up him up for MoP.
And of course, Shadows of the Horde, which was the set up for Vol'jin to take the reins of the Horde.
The books set the tone Rank; if Thrall ends up the main character, I have a feeling we are gonna see a repeat of the Dragon Soul.
Fixed.
Well, I still don't believe thrall will be the main character of the new book. His story-arch is pretty much complete, and now that he's never gonna be warchief again, there's no reason to keep expanding on him, plus a tie-in book for WoD would deal with far more important things that were left unsaid in the game.
I gave a few examples above, we still need to see the trial of garrosh, how he escapes, and more importantly, on what terms the alliance and horde are right now. Including what kind of concessions both sides will have to make in order to have a lasting peace. Apart from the liberation of Gilneas and the release of the Hostages that jaina took, there are other issues that BADLY need to be addressed, such as the warsong presence in ashenvale. Will they be forced to withdraw? if they are, will the alliance sell the horde the wood and timber they need?
There's a lot of stuff that needs to be cleared up, and I doubt they're gonna waste a book with thrall as centerpiece when there's so much else that needs to be expanded on. Just airing my thoughts on the matter.
Post by
Adamsm
Yes but like you just Rank...this will probably be about the Orcs; and who speaks for the Orcs now?
Post by
Rankkor
Yes but like you just Rank...this will probably be about the Orcs; and who speaks for the Orcs now?
Next expansion maybe, but the book will not be about the events in WoD, its a wrap-up of the MoP plot, as such it involves more than just orcs. The Horde is a coalition of several nations, and its representative is Vol'jin, not Thrall. We will see when more details are announced, but right now, I think it unlikely it will be orc-centric, given that the "True Horde" has been deposed, and now the alliance and horde have a lot of negotiations to deal with.
Wouldn't even surprise me if the protagonist is Anduin. Not only he's by far the most prominent diplomatic figure in the game (Now that jaina has gone full rage-bull) but there was that vision of him visiting garrosh on his prison cell.
Post by
Adamsm
Vol'jin is the representative, but as the trial seems like it going to take place in Pandaria, he would be there at the side lines, same as the Alliance. But I just have this feeling that Thrall is going to be the view point character for the book for several reasons: 1) To show him taking power as the new Orc leader 2) Probably to have some grief over what Garrosh did and 3).....He's Golden's pet, nearly as much as Metzen's.
Post by
morginar
Anduin
AAARGGGHHHH!
I'd rather not see more of him.
I'd rather have tobias the filth gorger than over him in the new expanison.
Post by
Rankkor
Vol'jin is the representative, but as the trial seems like it going to take place in Pandaria, he would be there at the side lines, same as the Alliance. But I just have this feeling that Thrall is going to be the view point character for the book for several reasons: 1) To show him taking power as the new Orc leader 2) Probably to have some grief over what Garrosh did and 3).....He's Golden's pet, nearly as much as Metzen's.
Rhonin was Knaak's pet in much the same way. Did he shoehorned him on every book he wrote? no. Thrall will likely be mentioned, but to go from there, to automatically assume a frontal row and center position is a long long stretch dude.
Thrall was not the star of the Shattering (he was only in about 20% of the book. Anduin and the whole crisis in Ironforge took 25% of it, Baine and the Grimtotem betrayal as well as battle for thunderbluff took another 25% Cairne, Garrosh and Hamuul took another 25% and the final 5% was for Jaina and Varian)
he also was not the star of Tides of War, or Rise of the Lich King, or Rise of the horde (Where he only did the intros for the chapters but was otherwise not involved on the story itself) or Beyond the Dark Portal. In fact, out of all the books writen by golden, Thrall has only been the central figure in a whooping total of TWO (Lord of the Clans and Twilight of the Aspects). The rest of her books had him either as a very minor character (with only an appereance in a chapter or two) or just a cameo (with one or two lines at most) or just briefly mentioned, or not at all.
Thrall was also neither present, nor even mentioned on the manga volumes written by golden, which is volume 3 (Her story was about a goblin) and Volumes 4 and 5 (where she writes the story of Thrall's mom)
I think you're taking your disliking of the authoress and the character a tad bit too far man.
I dislike Knaak with an intense hatred, but I don't auto-assume every single book he writes will be about King Chin and his "mane of hair that refuses to be tamed" or about "Mister Flame-o Hair Rhonin Master of the Silver-liquid swords that nobody else has"
Post by
Stabhorn
Wouldn't even surprise me if the protagonist is Anduin. Not only he's by far the most prominent diplomatic figure in the game (Now that jaina has gone full rage-bull) but there was that vision of him visiting garrosh on his prison cell.
I still think that Anduin in that scene is really Kairoz.
Post by
Adamsm
Rank...Thrall was the deus ex machina to hold off Jaina in Tides of War; had he not been there, she would have sunk Ogrimmar and Durotar.
And it's not that big of a stretch, especially considering how Blizzard feels about Thrall, and how Golden does.
We'll have to wait, but I'm putting in a prediction that he will be a major character in the book, and will end up a major character come Warlords.
Post by
Rankkor
Rank...Thrall was the deus ex machina to hold off Jaina in Tides of War; had he not been there, she would have sunk Ogrimmar and Durotar.
So? Krasus was also a big Deus Ex Machina on that very same book, because it was his idiotic prophecy which led to jaina being appointed as leader of the kirin tor, and we all saw how that colossal screw up ended up.
The point is, that Thrall was a very minor character in Tides of War, having only one significant scene, and if I recall correctly, Jaina stopped more because of Kalec than because of Thrall, and considering she defeated him thoroughly, had she refused to back down, it would had been up to Kalec to stop her, not Thrall.
You are taking a single scene in a really big "door stopper" book way out of proportion to inflate Thrall's involvement in the book.
To give you an example: in The Shattering, Jaina also played a very key Deus Ex Machina role, because she, out of the clear blue, with no apparent reason for doing it, financed the mercenary army to take back Thunderbluff. Without her, the grimtotems would had been in charge of the city today. Yet her actual involvement in the plot was very minor, at best she showed up in 3 or 4 chapters, and only with a small amount of lines each time.
And it's not that big of a stretch, especially considering how Blizzard feels about Thrall, and how Golden does.
=( sorry bro', you know I love you, but it will never cease to annoy me to what degree some people react to Thrall getting ANY form of love. Have Tirion be the omnipresent messiah of WOTLK, nobody bats an eye. Have Thrall show up for 1 dungeon, 1 raid, 1 zone and 1 questline in cata, and suddenly everyone goes "SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS"
We'll have to wait, but I'm putting in a prediction that he will be a major character in the book, and will end up a major character come Warlords.
Considering he doesn't narrates, nor even shows up on the trailer, or on the website of Major Characters, I doubt it. At best, he will show up for the story regarding the Frostwolf clan, but that's about it, from the build up both in the website and the trailers, it looks as if its gonna be the Draenei who are going to stop the Iron Horde.
Post by
Monday
Because Thrall is the acknowledged creator's pet of Metzen? Tirion got the shaft in every way imaginable before Wrath. He was kicked out of the Order, he lost the Light for a time, his son got involved in the Scarlet Crusade and then died, etc, etc...
Post by
Adamsm
I'm still seeing Thrall having a massive part of the expansion.
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