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The world should actually be rewarding
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Post by
zsar
Throughout world of warcraft's history we've seen a lot of changes with the focus of raiding, we went from one raid size (40 man), then to another (25 man), then to two separate raid sizes(10 man - easy -, 25 man - difficult -), then to two difficulties in different raid sizes (10 man, 10 man heroic/25 man, 25 man heroic), then the implication of LFR as well as those two sizes/difficulties, and now we have a system that increase in difficulty but doesn't have raid sizes determining so. So we have the same raid 4 times over. Easiest, easy, easy, wtf is this? (most difficult of the difficult).
Now I'm not saying that I disagree with having wtf is this, difficulty, but I'm saying that we should lessen the focus on raiding to get all of our gear. WE SHOULD HAVE REWARDS from other parts of the game aside from the occasional mount, and follow/misc item. We should have huge rewards, and not just mounts, for going out into the world, ALL around the world, not just draenor, and having to do things, for example, kill 25 people in the open world ANYWHERE (pvp) at the same time as having a quest to go kill a random spawning group of mobs somewhere in draenor or azeroth in a closed area, or run a dungeon similar to how they are soon to implement timewalker. These quests should have rewards that help someone gearup or give items to later on get gear.
Now this is the catch to all of this, and is one of the reasons why many people will either agree or disagree with this proposal. I say we get rid of rewarding those who queue for dungeons, and have reward more for creating a group, and running to the dungeon (anywhere in the world on that given weekend or day). Also, getting rid of LFR COMPLETELY, and maintaining 2 difficulties: normal mode, heroic mode, and/or mythic mode (I think it should be normal and heroic again, or normal and mythic, I don't think calling something heroic, that isn't heroic, is a good thing, could just be me though) and have a scaling difficulty raid as you progress through the raid IE the hardest bosses are toward the end.
So to sum all of this up, instead of making 4 separate raid difficulties, have a scaling difficulty of raids but with more bosses. The easier version (normal) will allow for you to complete the entire raid (EVENTUALLY) with the completion of the dailies and dungeon groups (getting the rewards from doing these activities - adventuring out into the world), and the harder version will not scale as easily with gear - there's increased individual responsibility, and more difficulty throughout. However this would have to be so that those who are good enough to get out of the easier version do not suffer immensely as we see today in mythic, but not so that the best of the best complete the harder version within the first 2 weeks of release.
TLDR; make it so that those who want to progress the fastest feel the wall of difficulty faster than those who want to see the content/enjoy raiding at a medium to hot pace in a world where there is not medium, sorta medium, medium, and then hot for a raiding pace.
So I wrote this strictly to see what the community would say and it'd be great to hear from people in a critical fashion without being negative.
-Thanks
Post by
Adamsm
Also, getting rid of LFR COMPLETELYI don't work a regular job where I have standard hours; my shifts change almost constantly as do my days off. The only time I get to raid is in LFR; yes it's the tourist mode but so what? It lets me see content, get some gears and complete quests.
. I say we get rid of rewarding those who queue for dungeons, and have reward more for creating a group, and running to the dungeon (anywhere in the world on that given weekend or day).So back to the days of 'oh I have to go sorry' 'okay, send one person back to a major city and hopefully we aren't sitting on hold for hours depending on our server population and that someone is willing to come to an already in progress instance with no chance to go back to those bosses they are missing today'...... yeah that was so much fun in Vanilla, BC and early Wrath.....
Post by
Interest
Oh this is going to be fun. *cracks mental knuckles*
The world should actually be rewarding
So first of all this premise strongly implies it isn't already when treasures, rare hunting, and the like are quite rewarding in themselves. They're probably not going to give you raid gear, but then again, it hasn't exactly had a history of doing so. To put it another way, you may want to reconsider your thread title.
Now I'm not saying that I disagree with having wtf is this, difficulty, but I'm saying that we should lessen the focus on raiding to get all of our gear. WE SHOULD HAVE REWARDS from other parts of the game aside from the occasional mount, and follow/misc item. We should have huge rewards, and not just mounts, for going out into the world, ALL around the world, not just draenor, and having to do things, for example, kill 25 people in the open world ANYWHERE (pvp) at the same time as having a quest to go kill a random spawning group of mobs somewhere in draenor or azeroth in a closed area, or run a dungeon similar to how they are soon to implement timewalker. These quests should have rewards that help someone gearup or give items to later on get gear.
This more discusses a problem with the current state of the game where Warlords of Draenor is pretty lacking in terms of what a player can do by themselves. There is content - no doubt about that, but a lot of it lacks persistence, is too briefly episodic, or lacks significant reward for the work done. I have addressed this myself a while ago and made a few suggestions to alleviate the issue. 6.2 seems to go a good way towards addressing the aforementioned problem as well.
Now this is the catch to all of this, and is one of the reasons why many people will either agree or disagree with this proposal. I say we get rid of rewarding those who queue for dungeons, and have reward more for creating a group, and running to the dungeon (anywhere in the world on that given weekend or day).
While I will agree that premaking groups could have (more of) a reward than it currently does (it exists, but it's rather obscure). For instance, call to arms bonuses could be shared with the group (a frequently made suggestion), etc. However, I strongly disagree with removing rewards for queuing up. As it is, there's less incentive to run (Heroic) dungeons than ever and killing incentives even further could potentially result in a wasteland that was once the LFD queue, which would be a shame considering the convenience of the feature in itself is nice accessibility-wise.
Furthermore, Challenge dungeons partially accomplish the need to premake, and Heroic Scenarios, from what I remember,
were complained about a bit
(could probably hunt for more similar statements) due to their forced premade group requirement.
Also, getting rid of LFR COMPLETELY
Why exactly? It fills a potential niche for a surprisingly large number of players. It allows more inexperienced players to have an environment where they're less likely to ruin the run. It provides more experienced players with a fallback to finish their legendary quests, acquire gear, and practice if they cannot do higher difficulty raids or were unlucky in them. It's generally not that time consuming or demanding compared to a raid since you can join and drop at your own leisure - no questions asked. These strengths alone justify keeping the mode around.
Yes, it's not necessarily a fun mode considering players can be total asses (much like with any convenient "matchmaking" style system), but this is largely a player behavior problem that frankly, needs to be addressed in itself. Also, refer to
this
(the person who replied to me deleted their post but I quoted a majority of it).
and maintaining 2 difficulties: normal mode, heroic mode, and/or mythic mode (I think it should be normal and heroic again, or normal and mythic, I don't think calling something heroic, that isn't heroic, is a good thing, could just be me though) and have a scaling difficulty raid as you progress through the raid IE the hardest bosses are toward the end.
These modes were deliberately relabeled. Normal is the old flex, Heroic is the old Normal, and Mythic is the new Heroic. While there ARE problems with say, the Heroic to Mythic transition (because that 20-person requirement kills the guild from what I hear), scaling back to two difficulties, while potentially easier on development, may not be the best approach. Also, ideally, a raid in itself is supposed to have the most difficult bosses at the end (apparently this is a problem in Hellfire Citadel, but hopefully it'll be addressed and Mannoroth won't be harder than Archimonde). If the progression curve of a raid instance in itself is poorly done, that's a design issue that requires feedback.
So to sum all of this up, instead of making 4 separate raid difficulties, have a scaling difficulty of raids but with more bosses. The easier version (normal) will allow for you to complete the entire raid (EVENTUALLY) with the completion of the dailies and dungeon groups (getting the rewards from doing these activities - adventuring out into the world), and the harder version will not scale as easily with gear - there's increased individual responsibility, and more difficulty throughout. However this would have to be so that those who are good enough to get out of the easier version do not suffer immensely as we see today in mythic, but not so that the best of the best complete the harder version within the first 2 weeks of release.
I will admit the idea put forth, while essentially a "go back to Wrath/Cataclysm-style progression" (or really just pre-flex mode) idea, has potential. I could see them scaling back to 2 difficulties (+LFR - LFR should stay for the reasons mentioned above), smoothing out the progression curve, and working on more encounters or even multiple raids over working on balancing 4 sets of values, plus also adding scaling mechanics based on group size, which in itself is resource intensive. I agree with the possible concept if only for those aforementioned reasons.
Based on that idea and what I've said regarding it, a revised idea could be like:
LFR still exists. Pretty easy and designed for multitudes of players while providing an environment for players to learn with lessened personal responsibility.
Normal Mode is between where Normal and Heroic currently are, scaling from the Normal end earlier on in raid progression up to the Heroic end near the end. 10-30 players can be in the group.
Heroic Mode is between where Heroic and Mythic currently are, scaling from the Heroic end earlier on in raid progression up to the Mythic end near the end. Like with Normal mode, 10-30 players can be in the group,
removing the forced 20-man requirement entirely.
Party-based play can be further incentivized if needed (Mythic Dungeons seem to partially accomplish this) to help provide another gearing option to at least meet the requirements to do and progress through Normal mode raids.
...Yeah, I could see this working (yes, seriously!)
So I wrote this strictly to see what the community would say and it'd be great to hear from people in a critical fashion without being negative.
I know what you're probably trying to say, but this comes off as pompous and, in a way, kind of sad. There really shouldn't be any need to even have to make this kind of statement at all, but I guess that's the way society has developed. On the off chance this doesn't essentially mean "constructive criticism is appreciated - don't just be a verbally abusive jerk" criticism can have a negative tone (e.g. "your opinion or idea is poor because...") but still be constructive. I'm probably reading too much into this statement though.
Edit: Blog article idea is had - aw yiss.
Post by
cephadex
So back to the days of 'oh I have to go sorry' 'okay, send one person back to a major city and hopefully we aren't sitting on hold for hours depending on our server population and that someone is willing to come to an already in progress instance with no chance to go back to those bosses they are missing today'...... yeah that was so much fun in Vanilla, BC and early Wrath.....
Actually, leaving mid-instance used to be unheard of. Instances weren't this thing you signed up for if you couldn't make it and it looked really bad to leave in the middle. Instances did not used to be seen the way they are today, so this wasn't so begrudging, it was a commitment you didn't make on a whim. But hey, go on everyone and chew this guy out for having the gall to say anything.
Personally, back in vanilla I never raided, and I never took issue with not seeing raid content, because I didn't perceive it as something I was entitled to see. Kind of like I don't perceive, oh, outer space as being something I'm entitled to see irl, that should be dumbed down so that every person has a shot at it. There's always something in-game not everyone can get to, and I don't see this perception that supposedly everyone should get to do anything regardless of the amount of effort they can put in. I don't buy this argument of "well I don't have a job that allows me to do such and such so I should be able to get those same rewards and experiences without doing that work." No, I personally also don't have the time to raid hardcore, but I don't think that means I should get to see things people who do have that time get to see. It's just not relevant whether or not you have the time, that reward shouldn't be adjusted to my or your time availability.
Post by
Nulgar
But hey, go on everyone and chew this guy out for having the gall to say anything.
It's just that we have heard this "it was better in the past" all too often now.
Post by
asakawa
I must admit that I read the entire OP and I don't really know what problem is that's being identified... nor do I have a good grasp of the solutions being presented.
The TLDR suggests that your issue is that the 4 difficulties of raid provide 3 easy versions and a Mythic, overly hard, version. I don't think I agree with this premise but my position is that of someone currently raiding Mythic (we're at 6/10, expecting to be 7 or
maybe
8 before 6.2). What I guess is the case is that you're (the OP) a solid Heroic level raider, maybe Mythic level but in a guild that is only Heroic level. This would skew your perception of things as you're not seeing the kinds of people for whom Normal mode is the perfect difficulty or for whom Mythic is pretty easy. We're reaching the end of this raid tier so those for whom Heroic is in the Goldilocks zone of 'just right' but for whom Myhtic is 'too hot', are at a wall with nothing to do.
Perhaps
the ramp up through the difficulty levels could be smoother but that would be an issue of execution rather than a fundamental issue with the system in place. The other solution is to simply release more content, faster but there will always be those for whom new content comes too soon or too late.
I don't understand the stuff about the wider world being rewarding but that sounds like the same 'Garrison Prison' effect that's being discussed a lot in WoD, combined with the normal issue of the main world and zones of each expansion being part of the base expansion content and not being constantly updated to compete with the ramping tiers of raid and PvP gear.
Personally, back in vanilla I never raided, and I never took issue with not seeing raid content, because I didn't perceive it as something I was entitled to see. Kind of like I don't perceive, oh, outer space as being something I'm entitled to see irl, that should be dumbed down so that every person has a shot at it. There's always something in-game not everyone can get to, and I don't see this perception that supposedly everyone should get to do anything regardless of the amount of effort they can put in. I don't buy this argument of "well I don't have a job that allows me to do such and such so I should be able to get those same rewards and experiences without doing that work." No, I personally also don't have the time to raid hardcore, but I don't think that means I should get to see things people who do have that time get to see. It's just not relevant whether or not you have the time, that reward shouldn't be adjusted to my or your time availability.
This argument doesn't hold much water I think. Blizzard wants people to be able to experience the content they design so they make versions of it for people on different commitment levels. The raiding that you didn't care for (or at least were happy to miss out on) in vanilla is still in the game now, as Mythic, but now you can go into those raid zones if you wish at a different level. It's an MMO and this is big group content. I think it's totally correct that Blizz finds ways for anyone that wants to see the content, to take part in it. Nothing is taken away, stuff is added. Win-win.
Personally I couldn't raid much in Vanilla either. I had some friends that ran some stuff in an Alliance of a few guilds so I'd occasionally get to see MC, ZG or BWL. However, raiding for me happened in tBC with the 10 man Kara content and I haven't looked back since. Basically I think that offering different, less awkward ways for people to experience group content is important and very positive.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
jarycu
It's just that we have heard this "it was better in the past" all too often now.
I'm with Nulgar here...I tried Vanilla and hated it. TBC - hated it. LK - guess what? I hated it too. I played each for a week or so and gave up.
The changes made in Cata, while I understand were mostly-loathed, were what brought me into the game. The addition of LFG/LFR, the dumbing down to a more casual perspective, etc., made the game more inviting to casuals like me.
I'm not in favor of some of the recent changes of the game, but I've not complained about them in 3-4 weeks because I reflected and realized that we're making progress. Since the big "no flying argument" (which I was vehemently against), I've leveled 2 more toons from 92-100 and really took the time to look around more without doing randoms, and staying on the ground actually is kinda fun. I'd still love to fly, but I don't hate not flying like I thought I would.
There's nothing to stop people from playing like they did back in whenever...if you don't want to use LFR, don't use it. It you want to stand in SW Trade District and spend 3 hours looking for 4 more people to run a dungeon with, go for it.
I'll take advantage of the tools and shortcuts provided and enjoy the game I'm playing, though.
Post by
crsh1976
I don't know about adding rewards, there's already so much stuff worth using despite being outleveled; I'm currently running old raids on my priest, both because I missed out on a great deal of them (last time I was a serious raider was in BC and early Wrath) - sure there are a few very rare mounts to farm, but sometimes I'm just happy getting one of the tons of pets they added on old bosses, collecting crafting patterns or keeping some drops for their awesome models/skins (then I make "BC vintage" sets or just keep them for future transmog).
Personally, thank $deity the old stuff is still there, I love this game but I'm totally bored with WoD content and especially garrisons.
Post by
Adamsm
So back to the days of 'oh I have to go sorry' 'okay, send one person back to a major city and hopefully we aren't sitting on hold for hours depending on our server population and that someone is willing to come to an already in progress instance with no chance to go back to those bosses they are missing today'...... yeah that was so much fun in Vanilla, BC and early Wrath.....
Actually, leaving mid-instance used to be unheard of. Instances weren't this thing you signed up for if you couldn't make it and it looked really bad to leave in the middle. Instances did not used to be seen the way they are today, so this wasn't so begrudging, it was a commitment you didn't make on a whim. But hey, go on everyone and chew this guy out for having the gall to say anything.
I saw a lot of people bail during BC and again in Wrath before LFD was implemented.....and I saw multiple groups from hell in Vanilla that ended horribly.
Post by
Wombat62
So back to the days of 'oh I have to go sorry' 'okay, send one person back to a major city and hopefully we aren't sitting on hold for hours depending on our server population and that someone is willing to come to an already in progress instance with no chance to go back to those bosses they are missing today'...... yeah that was so much fun in Vanilla, BC and early Wrath.....
Actually, leaving mid-instance used to be unheard of. Instances weren't this thing you signed up for if you couldn't make it and it looked really bad to leave in the middle. Instances did not used to be seen the way they are today, so this wasn't so begrudging, it was a commitment you didn't make on a whim. But hey, go on everyone and chew this guy out for having the gall to say anything.
.
what game were you playing --people leaving mid instance happened quite regularly and it was an absolute pain to find more --actually it was an absolute pain to find 5 to start the instance in the first place
OP - I will never understand why people who don't raid want raid gear , it may allow you kill a mob in .02 of second instead of .05 of a second but you wont notice the difference . The only one of my toons that have raid gear is my raid toon . The other 14 don't and don't need it .
anyway garrisons let you get raid gear without having to set foot in a raid , something that I think should be changed , you shouldn't start getting the missions till you have killed 5 bosses in normal
Post by
Nulgar
OP - I will never understand why people who don't raid want raid gear , it may allow you kill a mob in .02 of second instead of .05 of a second but you wont notice the difference .
Well, my DK couldn't solo Elegon with 630 gear, but can with 655 BRF LFR gear :P
Post by
banokawow
Dungeons and Raids...... No matter what level of content you choose, it is good for your style of play. If you are a player who likes, and has time, to be the top tier of the game, then Mythic is your choice. If you play when time constraints allow you to and you are trying your best to do what you can, then LFG/LFR is your choice. This doesn't make the game any less fun for anyone. If I go into LFR and down a boss, it won't alter your boss kill in Mythic. I'll get my gear and you will get yours. You will still get to show off your shiny high ilvl gear and all players will know you are a high end player... BUT it still won't affect my play style nor will my lower level gear yours.
Post by
rabican1
The OP's post does really make any sense because the game already has everything he is asking for.
Now I'm not saying that I disagree with having wtf is this, difficulty, but I'm saying that we should lessen the focus on raiding to get all of our gear. WE SHOULD HAVE REWARDS from other parts of the game aside from the occasional mount, and follow/misc item. We should have huge rewards, and not just mounts, for going out into the world, ALL around the world, not just draenor, and having to do things, for example, kill 25 people in the open world ANYWHERE (pvp) at the same time as having a quest to go kill a random spawning group of mobs somewhere in draenor or azeroth in a closed area, or run a dungeon similar to how they are soon to implement timewalker. These quests should have rewards that help someone gearup or give items to later on get gear.
There are plenty of ways to get gear out side of raiding. Crafting, Folllower Missions, world bosses, PvP rewards, Apexis Crystal purchases, random drops, blue dungeons.
Now this is the catch to all of this, and is one of the reasons why many people will either agree or disagree with this proposal. I say we get rid of rewarding those who queue for dungeons, and have reward more for creating a group, and running to the dungeon (anywhere in the world on that given weekend or day). Also, getting rid of LFR COMPLETELY, and maintaining 2 difficulties: normal mode, heroic mode, and/or mythic mode (I think it should be normal and heroic again, or normal and mythic, I don't think calling something heroic, that isn't heroic, is a good thing, could just be me though) and have a scaling difficulty raid as you progress through the raid IE the hardest bosses are toward the end.
What would this acheive? And it flies in the face of what you proposed in the paragraph above. Also there is already a higher reward system for those that build groups, it is called normal and above raids.
So to sum all of this up, instead of making 4 separate raid difficulties, have a scaling difficulty of raids but with more bosses. The easier version (normal) will allow for you to complete the entire raid (EVENTUALLY) with the completion of the dailies and dungeon groups (getting the rewards from doing these activities - adventuring out into the world), and the harder version will not scale as easily with gear - there's increased individual responsibility, and more difficulty throughout. However this would have to be so that those who are good enough to get out of the easier version do not suffer immensely as we see today in mythic, but not so that the best of the best complete the harder version within the first 2 weeks of release.
What? None of that makes any sense.
TLDR; make it so that those who want to progress the fastest feel the wall of difficulty faster than those who want to see the content/enjoy raiding at a medium to hot pace in a world where there is not medium, sorta medium, medium, and then hot for a raiding pace.
Well this "Too Long Did not Read" (moronic reddit lingo for summary) really doesn't sumarize anything the OP said and at best contradicts what he said in the openning paragraph.
Post by
Scrumptous
The title is misleading... It should be titled: Dungeons / Raids Should Be Rewarding
He did nothing to address the massive world, which in my opinion, is quite rewarding. Tons of hidden treasures, jump puzzles, rare spawns, rare world bosses, bonus objectives, daily quests, pet battles, herb/ore/skin gathering, rep grinding, follower collecting... The list goes on and on. I fail to see how they could make it much more rewarding?
So you hate the LFR, don't do it. Some of us can't dedicate ourselves to a strict raid schedule and still want to see content.
You mention getting raid level gear for doing PVP? What? So do you think raid bosses should drop PVP gear? That makes no sense. Killing players in the open world is neat... unless you're on a PVE server then it's almost impossible. That idea would only work on PVP servers and in which case who would EVER raid when you can just sit in Nagrand and gank new 99s and 100s for raid level gear? it would be MAD EASY to get your kills.
Offering raid level gear for daily quests seems... Well it seems incredibly dumb to me. It's like, if you had all the ingredients to make your favorite cake, and you also had a button that made you the same cake instantly, which would you choose? There would be nobody raiding if the same gear was dropping from solo daily quests.
What I am gathering here is that you want LFR/LFG removed COMPLETELY and in its place, you want daily quests to poop out raid gear? And you want content to be EVEN FASTER? ..........wow...............ok........
The problem with people who make these "here is how I would fix WoW" posts is that they almost always speak from where
they
are in the game. The hardcore PVPer wants all the changes made to PVP and wants raid gear to be less powerful than PVP gear. The hardcore raider wants LFR/LFG removed because screw those casuals... And so on and so on... What you meant was "here is how WoW would be better for me"
We need to remember that Blizz is not stupid and their job is impossible. You CANNOT put out content that all players will think is flawless. For me, Padaria was built pretty perfectly while cataclysm was terrible for me, so I quit for most of it. But Cata was fantastic for MILLIONS of people that weren't me. While you have a problem with LFR/LFG there are MILLIONS of players that depend on it to challenge them in their limited time. Many people call pet battles "blizzard pokemon LOL" but hundreds of thousands of people LOVE collecting pets and battling with them.
Post by
Evilry
Those claiming "getting rid of LFR" is simply inconsiderate.
Just like a billionaire claiming building and selling any house smaller than a football court is a waste of time and resources.
Post by
Nulgar
Haha, well said. However, I do think having 3 separate difficulties for pre-formed groups is too much. It leads to faster burnout even for those not aiming to run Mythic at some point.
Post by
asakawa
I don't understand how. Do you mean because people have run through two difficulties before they've even got to Mythic? In which case I don't think any serious Mythic guild is running Normal.
Post by
Nulgar
I don't understand how. Do you mean because people have run through two difficulties before they've even got to Mythic? In which case I don't think any serious Mythic guild is running Normal.
No, I mean it's the ToGC/ICC multi-ID thing all over again. Sure, you usually don't run more than two difficulties with the same character per week, but the logical progression path is there. And just look at what it's doing to the itemlevels, they're exploding all over the place.
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