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Hate for the Retribution Paladins?
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Post by
Maradin
I think Coro has a point. A ret paladin does bring a buff to the raid (which is always good!), but when you work it out it doesn't necessarily make up for the lack of dps. The same is true for elemental shamans, boomkins, and a third SP - you'd have to put in the calculations for your party to work it out.
I've raided all of MH and BT while being raid led by a ret paladin, who despaired every time he got into the top 8 on the damage meters. During this time, he rarely got to 1,800 dps (maybe with a hunter stacked melee group, Coro), and the rogues have been putting out 2,300 dps recently...
The argument is exactly the same for several other classes. There is
absolutely nothing
stopping you taking an elemental shaman, boomkin, ret pally, prot pally, etc, to high end raids. But if you're trying to get the absolute min/max setup, you wouldn't include some classes. Most raids wouldn't be optimised with a ret paladin, so from an entirely objective point of view they are not going to be taken.
Unfortunately, this applies to prot as well. There are very few fights that can't be done using a prot pally tank, but many are much more difficult because of it. Sure, go and use it, but don't pretend for one minute that it's the absolute optimal setup. Of course, in your particular raid it might be (especially if you like to skimp on shadow priests and use him to judge wisdom).
There are very, very few guilds who will actually min/max their raids. The number of guilds taking particular specs to raids tells us nothing: I've raided as smite spam in the past!
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Post by
Maradin
Um, I think you missed my point a bit. The point is: if you are absolutely min/maxing your raid for the highest dps, elemental shamans, boomkins and ret paladins almost always get left out of the setup. This is because a rogue/warlock are higher dps than ret/boomkin even considering the buffs they bring, and an ele shaman is better replaced by a resto shaman who brings almost the same level of buff.
There are exceptions to this: it's possible to set up your raid with less hit rating and then bring along ele/boomkin. This does mean gearing exactly for that setup, though, so it's rarely done except by the very top guilds.
Either way, the question is not whether we can take encounters with those classes, or if we need to min/max. The question is: if you create your perfect raid, will those classes be in there? Only then can we determine whether those classes are on par with others. And the answer is no, not really.
However, as I pointed out, you don't have to min/max your raid for any encounter. So those classes will be able to raid after all. My objective point is exactly what I stated - in a min/max setup, they aren't included, mathematically, but that doesn't mean we go ahead and exclude them for that reason!
And finally, the point about prot paladins. You must recognise, for example, that a prot paladin on Archimonde is not the easiest way to do the fight. A warrior tanking is much more effective (and lower risk), and as for having the prot pally heal... why not use a healer? So my point is simply that while it can be done, it's not the easiest way to do it. I'm not sure the same is true for warrior tanks, with the exception of some trash fights and possibly the adds on Morogrim (though back in the old days pre prot buff, we'd use a holy paladin for this anyway).
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Post by
Maradin
Doesn't greatly matter - both give a buff, and neither would be in a min/max setup. Feral druids are great tanks, but less exciting dps.
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106896
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Post by
CoroHD
The min/max raid setup is a myth and it changes from encounter to encounter. Show me a min maxed raid group and i'll show you another raid setup that will allow for more dps/better healing/better tanking on specific encounters.
No raid is
ever truely min-maxed
, unless you start switching players on every encounter. Some encounters favor melee over magic dps. Some need one tank, others 4.
The comment about elemental shamans, moonkins and so is also crap. Just the simpel addition of battlerezzes and ankhs to raid, can make a big difference. (think of teron gorefiend, azgalor, ...) Not to mention they add a fault margin to most raids for when things go wrong. (and they will go wrong, especially in progression raids)
We get it, no need to quote yourself.
The point is, if we were showing you raids that we thought were "truely min-maxed", and you were changing the raid setup to what was "truely min-maxed", none of them would have a ret pally in them.
By the looks of it this will change considerably come WotLK with all the ret changes, in addition to all the raid wide totems and shouts and auras etc. They arn't putting Imp seal deeper in the tree, but they completely removed sanctity arua and made retribution aura good by making it +2% dmg AND +3% haste AND raidwide AND scaling. Plus because most buffs arn't group dependant now ret's get the buffs they want without nerfing another classes dps. And thats not to mention the changes to how seal's and judge's work and divine storm means that ret personal dps will be up.
Suffer as you may now ret's, in wotlk there will always be 1 raid spot for you.
Post by
Maradin
Ah! Well, I wouldn't have any faith in the WOTLK balance just yet. I don't think they're even close - look how many talents currently mention spellpower, and ask yourself just how they can consider this in beta!
Anyway, yes, that was exactly my point, thankyou. Tomas: min/maxing does mean changing players on every encounter. Another reason it doesn't get done very often. That said, I won't be taking the same raid to Kalecgos and Brutallus tonight, so you could argue a minimal amount of min/maxing right there.
Post by
Rubendesmet619
Paladins always used to do horribly low DPS. It was improved a bit now and then, but never really caught up with "real" DPS classes until recently. Now, retribution is a spec that provides as good DPS as any other class. But many people haven't gotten used to that fact yet, and still think of paladins as the worst possible DPS.
For me, the only reasons to reject a ret paladin for a karazhan raid would be if the raid were full on melee already or if the paladin was really poorly geared.
I agree, seriously, palie DPS is fine atm considered the fact that they can also tank/heal and bring blessings and stuf.
If you stil think palies are rubbish DPS get your facts straight.
My main is a furywarrior and while I stil meet the ocasial idiot in 5-mens mostly its like.
/g friend: need a DPS to daily heroic ramps, sombody wants some fast badges
/g me: yea sure, why the hell not.
I have been invited.
Random rogue/hunter(yes its always the same clas strangly) pff, a warrior, warriors cant DPS, kick that idiot.
Idiot leaves the party.
/p friend: there we go, I kicked the idiot.
ffs I'm loved in my guild for ZA speedruns. On any fight I can stick to the bos I have the posibility to top the damagemeter as long as I have a shaman with me. It makes me wonder why you should use a feral druid while prot DPS is almost as high as cat DPS, did 800DPS in heroic UB once as protspec, told the feral druid to tank cause I was quitz sure I would do a lot more DPS as prot then he as feral.
Just get a decent guild and your sorted, its not like its importent what random people think, if your guildies know what you can do you can rest on your 2 ears. Just dont get into a fight with the arms warrior about weapons :p.
I think Coro has a point. A ret paladin does bring a buff to the raid (which is always good!), but when you work it out it doesn't necessarily make up for the lack of dps. The same is true for elemental shamans, boomkins, and a third SP - you'd have to put in the calculations for your party to work it out.
I've raided all of MH and BT while being raid led by a ret paladin, who despaired every time he got into the top 8 on the damage meters. During this time, he rarely got to 1,800 dps (maybe with a hunter stacked melee group, Coro), and the rogues have been putting out 2,300 dps recently...
I seriously thinking you underestimate +2% raiddamage.
lets say at SW, going to keep it easy here. a retridin does 1.8-2k DPS wich is quite easy to archieve with BT/SWP gear.
And you know the raid DPS needed for f.ex. brutalus.
Take that DPS and get the +2% with it, im quite certain that he gets passed rogues in damagedone if you actualy credit him for it, not talking about the +3% crit to the party wich you can put him with your survival hunter to keep the debuff up better or warrior(arms for debuff+rage and fury cause they simply live on crits).
Post by
buzz3070
i was wondering this myself as i have herd of people not liking ret pallies but this post cleared things up for me and not to change the subject but i havent had any problems raiding as a elemental shaman because most raids i have been in i was one of the 2 shamans in the group and i belive they like them is because of heroism and that i can provide a dps totem while the resto and enhancment can not and so we cna decied who sets what totems so we get the buffs we need to raid
Post by
PugnaciousOne
I've been playing a Ret pally for awhile now, and just for kicks I respeced him to prot, but I found that while playing a ret pally, I could do good dps when just using my weapon and that burst dps that comes with using your mana based skills is what puts a paladin up there near the rest of the pure dps classes. Just from playing, it almost seems that fully half the damage I delt was comming from my skills
Post by
Maradin
Just looking at the WWS scoreboard, average dps on Brutallus hits 2k for warlocks, mages, hunters, and rogues. Paladins come in at an almighty 1,588. Now, there is an argument that they buff other classes, and this works out at something like up to 16 people at 3% crit each. In real dps terms, this is probably only 1% more dps (crit scales, plus some things don't crit) - or 20 per person, so you're talking about an additional 380 dps for the raid. Which is still less than your 2k for the paladin! Incidentally, a very large part of this dps comes from having an enhancement shaman, so do we credit the paladin's personal dps to the shaman too? If we do, then ret is even less likely to be in a min/max raid...
My point still stands, and you still misunderstand it! It's fine to take a ret paladin. In raids, in 5 mans, whatever. But it isn't the optimum for most fights, just as the other classes we mentioned aren't.
Fury warriors, btw, should be getting a spot in raids. Their damage should approach rogues (but very often doesn't), and they buff the melee group. However, many guilds end up using an arms warrior for the physical debuff he puts on (plus the buff to the melee group, plus the only ~300 dps loss). The arms warrior debuff, incidentally, can be better than the ret paladin one - 4% physical damage scales regardless of the crit on the players. So if you're running with a feral tank, two rogues, an enh, and two or three hunters, this can be a very substantial buff (anything up to 500 raid dps from these alone).
Post by
Rubendesmet619
Just looking at the WWS scoreboard, average dps on Brutallus hits 2k for warlocks, mages, hunters, and rogues. Paladins come in at an almighty 1,588. Now, there is an argument that they buff other classes, and this works out at something like up to 16 people at 3% crit each. In real dps terms, this is probably only 1% more dps (crit scales, plus some things don't crit) - or 20 per person, so you're talking about an additional 380 dps for the raid. Which is still less than your 2k for the paladin! Incidentally, a very large part of this dps comes from having an enhancement shaman, so do we credit the paladin's personal dps to the shaman too? If we do, then ret is even less likely to be in a min/max raid...
My point still stands, and you still misunderstand it! It's fine to take a ret paladin. In raids, in 5 mans, whatever. But it isn't the optimum for most fights, just as the other classes we mentioned aren't.
Fury warriors, btw, should be getting a spot in raids. Their damage should approach rogues (but very often doesn't), and they buff the melee group. However, many guilds end up using an arms warrior for the physical debuff he puts on (plus the buff to the melee group, plus the only ~300 dps loss). The arms warrior debuff, incidentally, can be better than the ret paladin one - 4% physical damage scales regardless of the crit on the players. So if you're running with a feral tank, two rogues, an enh, and two or three hunters, this can be a very substantial buff (anything up to 500 raid dps from these alone).
Wait, sorry but isnt that +3% crit party only AND a +2% damageincrease for the entire raid, the 3% is nothing more then a bonus for the party to kep debuffs and flurry up f.ex. wich is for sure more then 1% DPS increase for some classes.
Post by
CoroHD
It's 2% damage for the party, not the raid, and 3% crit for the raid, not the party. 2% damage for the party isn't a good enough party buff to be worth putting the pally in the melée group because it's a net raid dps loss because one melée class loses all their party buffs and does less dps than the 2% dmg increases. 3% crit is worth bringing a ret over, but a prot pally (who you should already have one of) can spec into that talent, which eliminates the need for a ret.
This has already been covered multiple times in the past few pages.
Post by
109207
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