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Question to high end raiding rogues from a guild leader...
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Post by
Qlix
Hey guys I have a question for all of the seasoned raiding rogues out there:
Why do our rogues suck?
Now I've seen all the WWS reports and all the statistics saying the rogues are
usually
the highest dps in game. I play on Gnomeregan and to be honest i have never seen a rogue break 900 dps on ANY fight.
My armory link is in my sig. Would anyone mind takinga look at the rogues in my guild, for starters, and please give me some kind of insight as to why this might be the case.
I cannot argue with numbers and statistics and say that rogues just suck, Im more logical than that, but i also cannot argue with what Ive seen personally in my own raids on my server.
Please dont post "well your rogues just suck" comments... thats not really helpful nor is it constructive. I really am just looking for some insight as I said. This is a topic that comes up regularly in officer chat, anything helpful would be MUCH appreciated.
Thanks in advance!
Post by
pete007
you could have posted a WWS.
also helps to know what rogues are active raiders... but
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gnomeregan&n=Zalast
20 agi on MAINHAND is awful, it's not a good "until I get mongoose mats" enchant either.
surefooted on boots is inferior to both dex and cat's.
TT is not really a rogue trinket... =/
it's probably something that you can't see in his armor that's holding him back on dps. like... not potting.. or not using the correct combat rotation, or not understanding how a rotation works.
Post by
133983
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pete007
TT is not really a rogue trinket... =/
I was with you up until this, TT is a perfectly fine rogue trinket.
It's much better for some other classes, I guess I could understand TT if you don't have better and everyone else already has one.
Post by
Qlix
you could have posted a WWS.
also helps to know what rogues are active raiders... but
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gnomeregan&n=Zalast
20 agi on MAINHAND is awful, it's not a good "until I get mongoose mats" enchant either.
surefooted on boots is inferior to both dex and cat's.
TT is not really a rogue trinket... =/
it's probably something that you can't see in his armor that's holding him back on dps. like... not potting.. or not using the correct combat rotation, or not understanding how a rotation works.
funny you pic Z... Hes our main rogue...
and i didnt agree with the TT going to him... he actually outrolled me on it... and loot council (after much debate) awarded it to him over me.
as far as the main hand enchant... should he have mongoose on it? or something else? and will losing the hit from Surefooted not hurt as much as gaining +12 agility from Dexterity?
what rotation
should
he be using?
also the other 2 raiding rogues that worry me are
Supergypsy
(who admittedly is more PvP than PvE) and
Wherdhego
and i would post WWS but we dont use it. Ive just looked at statistics on the WWS website to compare. We use recount as our main damage meter.
we always have the melee with a shammy and/or feral druid btw.
Post by
pete007
funny you pic Z... Hes our main rogue...
and i didnt agree with the TT going to him... he actually outrolled me on it... and loot council (after much debate) awarded it to him over me.
as far as the main hand enchant... should he have mongoose on it? or something else? and will losing the hit from Surefooted not hurt as much as gaining +12 agility from Dexterity?
what rotation
should
he be using?
also the other 2 raiding rogues that worry me are
Supergypsy
(who admittedly is more PvP than PvE) and
Wherdhego
and i would post WWS but we dont use it. Ive just looked at statistics on the WWS website to compare. We use recount as our main damage meter.
mongoose is by FAR superior. no questions about it.
uh, yeah, hit is pretty much never 20% better then agi, meaning 12 agi is better then 10 hit. cat's is the best enchant though.
rotation should be determined by him using a spreadsheet. many newer rogues tend to only use the rotation though and not understand you have to react during the fight to constantly change your rotation.
The other two rogues have gear issues, as far as quality of gear, gemming and enchanting
Post by
133983
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Qlix
ok so heres my next question... cuz I just noticed something and it comes up a lot:
for rogues is there that big of a difference in PvP vs PvE gear?
I mean you have no mana to deal with so all the normal differences between PvP and PvE gear dont really apply. the only thing i notice being different is hit. But the AP, Crit, Agil, and Stam itemizations are pretty similar arent they?
i mean couldnt a full S3/4 rogue put out as much damage as a T6 rogue? I mean (no offense to you guys) but youre pretty much there for one reason in both PvE and PvP and thats DPS... so whats the difference?
or is it the spec?
Post by
pete007
ok so heres my next question... cuz I just noticed something and it comes up a lot:
for rogues is there that big of a difference in PvP vs PvE gear?
I mean you have no mana to deal with so all the normal differences between PvP and PvE gear dont really apply. the only thing i notice being different is hit. But the AP, Crit, Agil, and Stam itemizations are pretty similar arent they?
i mean couldnt a full S3/4 rogue put out as much damage as a T6 rogue? I mean (no offense to you guys) but youre pretty much there for one reason in both PvE and PvP and thats DPS... so whats the difference?
or is it the spec?
it's the same amount of differnce for every class really. you have an item with a certain item lvl, it has a certain amount of stats dedicated to dps stats and certain amount dedicated to defensive stats...
s1-s4 have little differnce in defensive stats... meaning s1 has extreamly little in offensive stats... s4 helm is a great raiding helm, s4 gloves is not.
there is no blanket statement you can make about pve gear vs pvp gear.. you have to check each item for what it is.
s3/s4 is close to t5 in dps depending on each peice of gear.
but of course they could not keep up with a t6 rogue... it's basicly the same item lvl only the pvp gear uses more stats for res and stuff......
Post by
Lohr
Supergypsy --
Bad: Hit Rating is LOW (200 at least for Karazhan) and Sub is not a good spec for raids (caught in pvp gear?)
My view/Suggestions: The AP is good but there is no point to it if you can't hit the mob. He should get his engineering up and get the goggles to replace his helm. I don't like his enchant on his boots I'd rather put Dexterity on them. I wouldn't wear PvP gear in a raid as it lacks a lot of important stats. Also I would suggest he goes ALDOR as the inscription is better then Scryers for raiding. I would also suggest getting exalted with SSO to get the neck piece.
Zulast
Bad: Main Hand w/ agility enchant. Work on getting the MH Merc and farm the mats for mongoose.
My View suggestions: Focus more on Hit Rating. I would suggest the 100 badge trousers and put the nethercobra on it. Take off the boot enchant and put Dexterity on it. Everything else seems fine for now. I envy most his gear.
Wherdhego:
Bad: Low Hit Rating, mixing pvp with raid stats, hands have a bad enchant
My view/suggestions: Get teh neck piece from SSO , get the 100 badge trousers /w nethercobra as stated above
Sevvyst:
I think he just turned 70 so I won't comment. Although he seems to be on the right path with stats.. The only thing is that I wouldn't put anything in the sub tree.
Bandefaca:
Bad: Belt has bad gems; bad enchant on shoulders
My view/suggestions: He's diong pretty good so far. Really don't see anything then getting trousers again which will help him a lot..
Pathosym:
Bad: LOW HR ; mixxing pvp with pve
Rogue caught in PVP gear?
Onem
Bad: LOW HR; mixing with pve stats
Rogue caught in PvP gear?
Rean:
PvP also?
Anywhooot.... I may not be in BT/Hyjal or Sunwell but I think I know my rogue! Whatsup reaper!
Post by
pete007
Supergypsy --
Bad: Hit Rating is LOW (200 at least for Karazhan) and Sub is not a good spec for raids (caught in pvp gear?)
My view/Suggestions: The AP is good but there is no point to it if you can't hit the mob. He should get his engineering up and get the goggles to replace his helm. I don't like his enchant on his boots I'd rather put Dexterity on them. I wouldn't wear PvP gear in a raid as it lacks a lot of important stats. Also I would suggest he goes ALDOR as the inscription is better then Scryers for raiding. I would also suggest getting exalted with SSO to get the neck piece.
no magic numbers, you've got to know this already. the rogues should focus on increasing their DPS, not their hit rating.
Post by
Qlix
right... the difference being the pvp gear comes with a lot more defensive stats... but from what ive seen PvP gear usually has just as much offensive stats as PvE... and the defensive stats obviously dont effect damage output, just survivability, for the most part (i understand its different but for the DPS difference im talking about it shouldnt be THAT different)
Post by
pete007
right... the difference being the pvp gear comes with a lot more defensive stats... but from what ive seen PvP gear usually has just as much offensive stats as PvE... and the defensive stats obviously dont effect damage output, just survivability, for the most part (i understand its different but for the DPS difference im talking about it shouldnt be THAT different)
do you understand how item lvl and stat allocation works?
Post by
Qlix
Bandefaca:
Bad: Belt has bad gems; bad enchant on shoulders
My view/suggestions: He's diong pretty good so far. Really don't see anything then getting trousers again which will help him a lot..
funny you mention this guy... he is actually someones main but hes an alternate raider. and he by far is the worst rogue we have.
the others besides Gypsy, Wheredhego and Z are all ppls alts as well. Correction... Gypsy is the alt of one of our main hunters (who is semi-retired, so hunter comes only when needed) .
But I guess from what Im gathering we have too many PvP rogues... I thought this
might
be the case but I really didnt think it would impact
that
much
Post by
Qlix
right... the difference being the pvp gear comes with a lot more defensive stats... but from what ive seen PvP gear usually has just as much offensive stats as PvE... and the defensive stats obviously dont effect damage output, just survivability, for the most part (i understand its different but for the DPS difference im talking about it shouldnt be THAT different)
do you understand how item lvl and stat allocation works?
apparently not as much as I thought I did. I mean my arena gear took me pretty far in PvE i thought.
Post by
Kelborn
Higher item lvl = higher amount of stats allocated to it. Forget exaclty what the little nifty formula is, but I know enough to grab PvE gear over PvP gear. Isnt it that the stats added together are equal to the item lvl?
Anway, have your rogues read our little Compenduim here and follow the described rotations. Also they should look at the PvE enchant and gem list.
Post by
107997
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
CoroHD
Make sure you give them a warrior with battle shout and an ench shaman with windfury/unleashed rage/strength of earth, as well as might kings salv. A good group set up is extremely important for rogues doing good dps. Make sure they are also flasking with flask of relentless assault and using the food buff from spicy hot talbuk (+20 hit).
PvP gear will cut it for t4 raiding, most t5 raiding, and even early t6, but really rogues should be picking up bits and pieces of gear upgrades through almost all levels of content even if they have full s4 and are gearing with pve in mind. Hit > crit for pve, and a decent number of itemisation points are spent on stam and resil instead of dps stats.
Also, Sub sucks really really hard for raiding.
Tell Wherdhego if he wants to raid in pvp gear to get at least s2. He has 3 pieces of s1 which should be just embarrassing for him whether he's pvping or pveing.
Get all your rogues to start spending their badges on all the sunwell badge gear.
Post by
Lohr
right... the difference being the pvp gear comes with a lot more defensive stats... but from what ive seen PvP gear usually has just as much offensive stats as PvE... and the defensive stats obviously dont effect damage output, just survivability, for the most part (i understand its different but for the DPS difference im talking about it shouldnt be THAT different)
do you understand how item lvl and stat allocation works?
apparently not as much as I thought I did. I mean my arena gear took me pretty far in PvE i thought.
It did when I was a hunter as well but the problem is that there is a lot more to a rogues needed stat then there is to a hunter.
142 & (forget what it was for survival) Hit Rating vs 363 w pre
Post by
pete007
Anway, have your rogues read our little Compenduim here and follow the described rotations. Also they should look at the PvE enchant and gem list.
problem is, as far as their "main raiding rogue." if he's having dps problems, it's probably something in practice. his boot enchant is sub-optimal, but not detrimental.
basically just look at it this way.
s3 helm
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33701
t6 helm
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31027
both 146 item lvl. but t6 helm has more of its item lvl based in dps stats, and often pve gear has "better" stats like hit. you can ignore the defense stats on both, and s3 helm would actually end up with a lower pve item lvl then the t6 helm, but you don't judge on how "dps oriented." an item is.
but REALLY you can't make a blanket statement about "pvp gear takes you until.." because it's going to depend on each peice...
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