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Seeing more total damage with haste
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Post by
Sgtpain
...but not really much more dps. Sounds odd, but, it's true. I am averaging a very similar dps as I did before I started stacking up the spell haste, but, my total damage for a run is much higher. I actually beat out a 1100 dps lock on a 5 man run by 200k damage by the end of the run, but only average 720dps.
This presents a real problem in raids. In boss fight, I am going OOM quite quickly, and total damage, due to the low dps, is actually coming out lower (not including if I need to melee a bit for a few seconds at the end of the fight). On trash, I am doing very well on damage because I can nuke them incredibly fast.
So, my question is, is the spell haste really worth it for raiding? This is my gear...
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shu%27halo&n=Moogly
Would I see more dps gemming for damage instead, or, is haste always going to give more dps than + damage?
Post by
Lightrain
IMO, you are sacrificing mp5 and int for haste. It's ok I guess if you have a sham and shadow priest in your group to make up for it, but not very good because of you going oom too fast. You probably more need mp5 and int. You want to try to achieve a big int number if possible, because that's where moonking regen really shines over others. Dreamstate is based on int, and you atm have pretty weak regen. I can see you being called the oomkin. =) I think in raid, you will get more out of being able to dps longer vs being able to put out more quicker, until you get into T6/sunwell content. Yes, you put out more damage in 5 man because you can start in quicker, and your burst dps will benefit, but your longevity suffers drastically.
I'm no moonkin expert, but this is my 2 cents knowing the mechanics of regen... Also, get into 490+int or higher, and you can use spirit over mp5, making you even more specializing in regen.
I hope this helps you. In 5 man, sure, haste rocks(hopefully they will let you drink after every pull). In raid, only when you have the crazy mp5 stats of t5/t6 gear do you start stacking haste to down bosses faster. IMO, your int is suffering at a really low point for your spell damage.
I'm thinking, you are itemized more as a shadow priest or lock, rather than a boomkin. Stack more crit, mp5, and int over haste IMO.
Post by
182246
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sgtpain
IMO, you are sacrificing mp5 and int for haste. It's ok I guess if you have a sham and shadow priest in your group to make up for it, but not very good because of you going oom too fast. You probably more need mp5 and int. You want to try to achieve a big int number if possible, because that's where moonking regen really shines over others. Dreamstate is based on int, and you atm have pretty weak regen. I can see you being called the oomkin. =) I think in raid, you will get more out of being able to dps longer vs being able to put out more quicker, until you get into T6/sunwell content. Yes, you put out more damage in 5 man because you can start in quicker, and your burst dps will benefit, but your longevity suffers drastically.
I'm no moonkin expert, but this is my 2 cents knowing the mechanics of regen... Also, get into 490+int or higher, and you can use spirit over mp5, making you even more specializing in regen.
I hope this helps you. In 5 man, sure, haste rocks(hopefully they will let you drink after every pull). In raid, only when you have the crazy mp5 stats of t5/t6 gear do you start stacking haste to down bosses faster. IMO, your int is suffering at a really low point for your spell damage.
I'm thinking, you are itemized more as a shadow priest or lock, rather than a boomkin. Stack more crit, mp5, and int over haste IMO.
You really think my int is that low? You do realize that I am geared wearing alot of items that were made for Moonkins, right? I think I might be able to squeeze a little more into what I have, but, if I go any farther, my dps and my + hit will go down so much that I will no longer be able to raid the material I am currently in.
So crit, MP5, then haste? Your idea of prioritizing stats based on their worth per point is a bit off. Damage should be socketed before crit, and hit should be socketed before damage.
I think what you're telling me is, that haste shouldn't ecven be considered until T6? I am wearing alot of items geared for the Boomkin and I even got a new meta gem for more int. I am still only at around 440 int. I know I am not going to see 490int until T6.
Post by
Lightrain
By mp5, I of course mean +spell damage with +mp5 on it. Or +spell damage and +int gems. Haste is kind of a wasted attribute if you don't have the int and regen for it.
Also, just because the badge vendor has it, doesn't make it the best for your toon. I would rock Mage gear if it had the same +spell damage and int with crit on it. You are boom. Your dps depends on crits. Just like feral druids. You want big, dirty, nasty crits. Look at how much gear you have that doesn't have crit rating on it.
Remember, if you didn't realize it, using pvp as an example because it is the most apparent and easily associated to gear itemization, S1 had no crit on it. S2 had no crit on it. S3 finally got some crit on it, followed by some uber S4 gear.
Same goes with the badge vendor gear. Check Ger'as or whatever it's name is. Very little, if any crit on that gear. Why would you spec for bigger crits, have an aura for more crits, and not have gear with crit all over it? Especially since it's a known fact that IS scales poorly with +spell damage, and moonfire, well... we like crit moonfires as well.
Now, how many pieces of your gear has MP5 or crit on it?
I'm not saying your horribly geared. Don't get me wrong. Just saying, the itemization for the level of gear you are wearing is poor, and now you know why. You do remember the nick name of oomkin right? It's not so much anymore in T6 and sunwell content that I've heard. Now they are BOOMCHICKENS! WOOT! It is content based.
You need MP5 and int for your longevity, and crit for your dps. Gear it. I'm not sure on the boomkin spirit issue. If you hit the int level, go for spirit. That is a very crazy goal tho. I wouldn't expect you to get there. I was just using it as a goal you should aim for if you can. Gear with more int, less stam, same +dmg? Gimme gimme.
I haven't even looked, is there a spell damage with spirit gem? I'll put it simple. Your spells cost a LOT of mana. My resto has more regen in MP5 without specing for more spirit, and way less gear level, but that's kind of expected. I'm not sure on the boomkin stats. I could be completely wrong too. =)
Post by
Sgtpain
I am getting alot of information that gemming for crit rating scales horribly though and that spell damage should take priorty point for point over crit. The gear that I am wearing did just that. I am working on the bracers, which have crit rating. The progression on my server blows, we are probably one of the lease progressed server in all of wow and many transfer out once they get geared enough to see T6 content. So basicly, that's why I am using alot of badge gear
Post by
182246
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Celdhyrean
While the basis of Lightrain's argument is true, ie if you turn OOM because of haste then that stat is a net dps decrease at your level, the view of moonkins and solutions he gives for it are bad.
As a general rule, never gem/enchant for int or mp5 (unless there's really nothing else, like the chest enchants), and never gem for crit (unless you really want some yellow socket bonus, are hit-capped and are at a level where haste doesn't work yet). It doesn't matter what stats evolution took place in the PvP gear or on the PvE gear or wherever, when you look at the theorycraft behind moonkin dps, 1 crit rating is always worth less than 1 hit or 1 dps (and 1 haste once you don't get OOM from it). Big crits are always nice, but it's something that is present on the gear you take rather than something you go out of your way to get.
Also, Int is not a main regen stat. If a moonkin needs more regen, he should get some mp5 or spirit, but preferrably spirit (helps on innervate when you get to use it on yourself). Intensity is a much better regen talent than Dreamstate, there's a reason why every moonkin takes it. As a consequence, the meta gem you have now is quite bad. 2% Intellect is at the most 10-12 int, that's nothing. Get an insightfull for mana regen (~15 mp5) or a chaotic for more dps (+9% of your normal damage on crits).
Regarding your problem : your constatation really seems strange. If you keep the same rotation before and after adding haste, your dps as well as your damage should go up in proportions. The only reason to have a low dps while doing good damage is that everyone's having to run a lot of time during which you keep applying your dots. That's because dps is basically calculated as "damage done divided by the time doing damage". Running around with a dot ticking is counted in that time while running around with no dots ticking is not. (which also means that comparing dps between classes needs to take movement/dots into account, or to just look at total damage if both person fought until the end.
Unless you chose a completely different fight with lots of running to compare dps, there's a problem.
As for comparing yourself to someone else, in a 5 man the Eye will proc much more often than against a raid boss, since the hidden cooldown will disappear between trash packs. That might explain part of it.
Try to compare your dps/damage with/without haste on Dr Boom to have stable parameters and do a better comparison.
Regarding the haste stat and it's interest for you, when fully buffed you are basically at/somewhat higher than the treshold where haste starts to become an interresting stat (~1070 +dmg, you should be around 1210) when looking at SF spam. You have 20 haste + quagmirran's trinket so let's say around 60, ie 4%. You aren't going to see a massive increase in damage/dps from that logically, it's worth it, good and steady, but nothing spectacular.
I myself started to look for haste quite later than you (at around 1200 spell damage unbuffed), but that's also in a good part because the blue haste gems took a very long time to be available on my realm.
If you often end up OOM however, then you have things to change, as that is the worst thing that can happen to your damage output. There are some things you can do on your own side (spell rotation, 6 mp5 on chest, vitality on boots, switch from damage to mana regen comsumables, ...), and things that you can get from your raid (shaman, spriest, wisdom/spirit, judgment of wisdom).
Regarding things you can do, taking a look at your rotation is important as that is the biggest know you can turn regarding your mana drain rate. If that is optimised and you are OOM really near the end fo the fight, a small change in consumables might be the best (and least costly) increase to your dps. If it's by a big margin, then i'd dump the trinket to get something else (as it accounts for 2/3 of your total haste)
Post by
Sgtpain
While the basis of Lightrain's argument is true, ie if you turn OOM because of haste then that stat is a net dps decrease at your level, the view of moonkins and solutions he gives for it are bad.
As a general rule, never gem/enchant for int or mp5 (unless there's really nothing else, like the chest enchants), and never gem for crit (unless you really want some yellow socket bonus, are hit-capped and are at a level where haste doesn't work yet). It doesn't matter what stats evolution took place in the PvP gear or on the PvE gear or wherever, when you look at the theorycraft behind moonkin dps, 1 crit rating is always worth less than 1 hit or 1 dps (and 1 haste once you don't get OOM from it). Big crits are always nice, but it's something that is present on the gear you take rather than something you go out of your way to get.
Also, Int is not a main regen stat. If a moonkin needs more regen, he should get some mp5 or spirit, but preferrably spirit (helps on innervate when you get to use it on yourself). Intensity is a much better regen talent than Dreamstate, there's a reason why every moonkin takes it. As a consequence, the meta gem you have now is quite bad. 2% Intellect is at the most 10-12 int, that's nothing. Get an insightfull for mana regen (~15 mp5) or a chaotic for more dps (+9% of your normal damage on crits).
Regarding your problem : your constatation really seems strange. If you keep the same rotation before and after adding haste, your dps as well as your damage should go up in proportions. The only reason to have a low dps while doing good damage is that everyone's having to run a lot of time during which you keep applying your dots. That's because dps is basically calculated as "damage done divided by the time doing damage". Running around with a dot ticking is counted in that time while running around with no dots ticking is not. (which also means that comparing dps between classes needs to take movement/dots into account, or to just look at total damage if both person fought until the end.
Unless you chose a completely different fight with lots of running to compare dps, there's a problem.
As for comparing yourself to someone else, in a 5 man the Eye will proc much more often than against a raid boss, since the hidden cooldown will disappear between trash packs. That might explain part of it.
Try to compare your dps/damage with/without haste on Dr Boom to have stable parameters and do a better comparison.
Regarding the haste stat and it's interest for you, when fully buffed you are basically at/somewhat higher than the treshold where haste starts to become an interresting stat (~1070 +dmg, you should be around 1210) when looking at SF spam. You have 20 haste + quagmirran's trinket so let's say around 60, ie 4%. You aren't going to see a massive increase in damage/dps from that logically, it's worth it, good and steady, but nothing spectacular.
I myself started to look for haste quite later than you (at around 1200 spell damage unbuffed), but that's also in a good part because the blue haste gems took a very long time to be available on my realm.
If you often end up OOM however, then you have things to change, as that is the worst thing that can happen to your damage output. There are some things you can do on your own side (spell rotation, 6 mp5 on chest, vitality on boots, switch from damage to mana regen comsumables, ...), and things that you can get from your raid (shaman, spriest, wisdom/spirit, judgment of wisdom).
Regarding things you can do, taking a look at your rotation is important as that is the biggest know you can turn regarding your mana drain rate. If that is optimised and you are OOM really near the end fo the fight, a small change in consumables might be the best (and least costly) increase to your dps. If it's by a big margin, then i'd dump the trinket to get something else (as it accounts for 2/3 of your total haste)
Thanks for the reply. I actually regemmed after posting this. I had close to 60 haste and a bit less damage before. I also had the Chaotic meta too, which I changed.
Too bad I am broke now and can't afford to change anything anymore
Post by
Lightrain
Hehe, great info celd!
I was thinking spirit because of intensity, but keep in mind, if you are in a raid environment, wanting every drop of mana, you need to be over 490 int buffed, which is probably very realistic, and you are probably over that when fully buffed with consumables. =)
I know above a certain % to crit, the crit benefits will start diminishing. If I was trying to up my dps for raiding, I would look into some of the cloth pieces with crit on them, and check them on Dr. Boom first, to see if that would benefit your dps(mainly for pieces with straight damage on them, and no mp5 or spirit). I'm intrigued by this tho. I was under the impression that above a certain +spell damage, IS is removed, and all you have is MF for DoT, wrath for max dps, and SF for max dpm. All of which are crit based. Ofc, you have raid advantages, so you don't need to stack as much crit if the groups and raid are set up right(and the gear will generally cover your crit), but what do you aim for as a crit cap for boom?
Post by
Celdhyrean
I don't quite get where you get this 490 int minimum value ? Not saying it's false but i don't see what it represents. To get whatever you can from mana, you get all mana regen talents, consumables and use efficient rotations. Aiming for a precise stat seems strange to me.
As for crit, I don't aim for it, period. I do have gear with crit on it because the combination of dmg/crit/haste/hit on that gear can be higher than the total dps increase from another piece of gear, but i never aim for crit. And this means that in those places where you can choose which stats you get (enchants and gems) you'll never use it (except the situation i already underlined).
Crit does seem nice because of big numbers and Nature's Grace, but it's always (or at least when looking at realistic stats from green geared to fully SWP'd) less of a dps increase than straight damage, haste or hit. The main reason are that you need 22 rating for 1% (whereas the others are much lower), that the added spells you get in a certain timeframe due to +hit and +haste can crit (ie they are more than normal damage) whereas a crit just adds normal damage, and that spelldamage profits from the very good scaling coefficients.
Regarding spells to use and how they scale relatively to each other, see the sticky. MF does get better in dps than IS, but there's also a point at which SF is both more dps and dpm than wrath.
Post by
Lightrain
By mp5, I of course mean +spell damage with +mp5 on it. Or +spell damage and +int gems. Haste is kind of a wasted attribute if you don't have the int and regen for it.
Oops. My bad.... I just checked spell damage gems, and they aren't itemized for regen either...
Showing my healer roots where you can choose between mp5, spirit, and int at will. 490 is where the epic +5 spirit healer gems become more mp5 than the +2 mp5 healer gems. You guys don't have them. I assumed they did.
(Foot>mouth)
LOL
I guess just try to find the gear for it. If you can find a piece with close to the spell damage with spirit or mp5 on it, go for it. That kinda sucks for itemizing a toon when they give you no flexibility gem wise... =(
I'm curious, when you put the haste gems in, what did you have in there before? Did you sacrifice spell damage for it? That may be why your dps is staying relatively level. I need to read more theory on boomkins before saying anything else. I didn't know the gems were so anti regen. That alone puts me over the edge of the cliff... =)
Just so you know where 490 int came from
If you were to go by the same theory as all this other stuff for regen that I'm saying, you would use your blue slots for +10 spirit gems whenever you can put a red gem with full+spell damage. This balances the 2 slots for the same itemizing as a regen combo gem with +5 spirit on it. This falls under the 490 int rule, making 5 spirit greater than 2 mp5(or 10 spirit better than 4 mp5) if you are going to be spamming casts and never be out of 5sr, but innervated, you will get much more out of spirit, as mentioned prior reguardless of your int, and drinking will take less time with spirit over mp5.
Post by
Celdhyrean
There's a point at which 1 haste rating brings a bigger dps increase than 1 point of spell damage. That's why there is a point where getting more haste works better even if it is at the expense of damage. As for myself it was mostly at the expense of new sockets (of whatever color), veiled gems (thanks to gear upgrades with hit on them), a few potent ones (for a good +dmg socket bonus) and glowing nightseye's (that i had for good socket bonuses)
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