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[Death Knight] Complete Unholy Presence vs. Blood Presence
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Post by
49018
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
blademeld
I think, again, I know nothing of Death Knights, that the GCD between blood strikes is negligible as they need runes, which are on a 10 second regeneration regardless.
Meaning there is no 100 DPS increase.
Post by
loladrunk
The whole equation is wrong just for 1 simple reason.You either didn't read the
Blood Presence
tooltip right,or you simply forgot about the
"increasing damage by 15%"
part.
Which makes Blood Presence the best for PvE Dps by every formula or dps chart I've seen yet.
Post by
275125
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
49018
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
DeeBee
Hah. Stinging words from the guy called "Pooslavemaster". Classy.
Realistically, as stated earlier, this DPS is great for burst, but not for sustained (at least in your short example). The 8 second rune cooldown would stop you from sustaining that DPS.
8 sec cooldown
PS - 1 UH
FS - 1 frost
HSx2 (2 blood)
DS (the last 2 runes)
5 GCD used... 3 secs to kill in unholy, vs .5s in blood.
55 runic generated (10x4, 15), so a DC (if you're not saving it for Garg/RW)
2 secs to waste, vs already cooled down in blood.
In the end... You've still done the same strikes in the same window, and you're stuck waiting for rune cooldown before the next cycle. This is where the 15% bonus damage kicks in and should push blood over the top.
I will agree that high burst DPS and increased run speed have their place (usually in PvP), but currently DKs are generally more constrained by runic cooldown than GCD.
Somewhere I read that for certain boss fights you can equate runspeed to a DPS value, but that varies depending on the boss.
In the end, if you feel like continuing your math out to at least a full DPS rotation then we'll have some real numbers that we can use to debate the effectiveness of Unholy vs Blood.
Post by
loladrunk
Then what equation is that? Read the entire post if you're going to criticize, otherwise don't bother.
I
did
read this part:
So, I'm going to omit that part and compare just the following things:
*
.5 Second global cooldown reduction. (Unholy)
*
15% Haste proc increase. (Unholy)
*
2% Self heal. (Blood)
So as far as I'm conserned,my apologies to the OP,but when presenting a formula for a DPS calculation I usually like to know what I'm going to see in that formula before checking through 25 lines of numbers if it interests me...
And after reading what the formula is
supposed
to present,I posted a critisism.
Post by
49018
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
252897
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Coronado
Had a recent experience in Ramparts where I'm a Blood/Unholy DK Hybrid and had a full Unholy in the group.
Through the Recount add-on I traced the overall damage and DPS.
While (as stated before) Unholy gives you a lot of burst damage (he was tops in the damage chart for the first part), my Blood/Unholy eventually caught up with him and performed better in the long run.
As a personal insight, I do believe sustained damage brings much more to the party in PvE, though burst damage is important for bringing down bosses.
I'm not deep into Theorycrafting or equations, I just let the numbers speak for themselves. Also, mind all those neat damage increases, disease damage increases and the fact that the Blood spec allows you to heal yourself pretty neatly:
Mark of Blood is gold against bosses, it
can
save your tank
Rune Tap is good if your healer is having trouble
Increased disease damage equals greater healing from Death Strike (mine's up to 1.4k healing atm @ lvl 62 from Plague Strike alone).
You're no good to your party or yourself dead, and the more you live, the more damage you can deal in the end.
As of PvP... it's enough to say I've killed lvl 64 Death Knights frost specced. Although I recognize it is not a matter of talents, but skill.
Take this not as the final word (most of you will disagree, I'm sure) but I've found this hybrid to be effective and well-balanced. Just my humble opinion.
Post by
sixlocal
Had a recent experience in Ramparts where I'm a Blood/Unholy DK Hybrid and had a full Unholy in the group.
We are talking about PRESENCE, not spec.
Post by
Pinkitteh
Ok, I know this is "theory crafting" so all of you number geniuses have theories based on numbers.
However I'm no math guru, so I'll have to use my logic. Which is basically:
If your weapon is big and slow but hits very very hard, surely spaming spells faster would make a much bigger increase to over all damage in the long run.
BUT, if your weapon has faster swings with a lower maximum damage, then having the flat 15% damage increase would be better.
So the real question is, will the speed buffs from unholy presence yield over 15% increase in overall damage?
Which I think will be very greatly effected by the speed and maximum damage of your weapon, and therefore vary from person to person (unless they got the same weapon)
Post by
blademeld
I don't see how weapon speed is relevant.
Post by
Astoriel
The issue at hand is the cooldown on runes. This is fixed and unchanged by Unholy Presence. Sure, over one rune cycle you'll do more damage, but the only thing you accomplish is getting more white swings in. As anything except a dual wield spec (and even then the evidence points to UP being at most on par with BP) white damage is a FAR lower contribution than your yellow damage. Blood Presence affects all strikes, Howling Blast, Icy Touch, Unholy Blight, DRW, etc. Unholy Presence only directly affects DPS from white damage (22~24% of total dmg as 2H Blood for me right now). The GCD reduction does not allow you to use 15% more abilities, nor does it affect the damage contributed by diseases (the DoTs), which while a small portion of damage, is no less significant than the white damage, especially if Unholy 2H.
Unholy is good if you have to drop all your rune abilities quickly, but then you still have to wait 8/10s for your runes to come back up, almost completely nullifying the GCD increase. For sustained DPS (ie. Boss encounters) BP will always win over UP. I invite you to try against Patchwerk and post results.
Post by
blademeld
The GCD reduction does not allow you to use 15% more abilities, nor does it affect the damage contributed by diseases (the DoTs), which while a small portion of damage, is no less significant than the white damage, especially if Unholy 2H.
This, runes on 10 second rotation, if you're using only 1 run rotation, with 1.5 seconds you have 6 runes and 1.5 RP dump spells, ~11.25 second rotation, reducing that by 0.5 seconds per spell will give you 1.25 more spells per rotation and only 12.5% more damage from abilities.
Add in the fact that your diseases, as mentioned, don't benefit, well, you lose out a bit.
But UH Presence is nice for increase in speed when you need it if you're blood or frost imo.
Post by
Astoriel
This, runes on 10 second rotation, if you're using only 1 run rotation, with 1.5 seconds you have 6 runes and 1.5 RP dump spells, ~11.25 second rotation, reducing that by 0.5 seconds per spell will give you 1.25 more spells per rotation and only 12.5% more damage from abilities.
Not entirely correct. At least for a Blood Rotation.
PS > IT > OB > HS > HS is -five- rune abilities. Then 2x RP Dump
(7s assuming no latency in UP)
OB > HS > HS > HS > HS is another -five-. Then 2x RP Dump
(17s assuming no latency in UP due to 10s wait on runes)
The issue here now is several things. As you can see, an entire half-cycle is only 7 seconds, meaning you're going to have dead time in your rotation. Having 3 seconds of dead time is detrimental, as there are only so many things you can do with the extra GCDs. Summon a ghoul? Horn of Winter? You can't use ERW often enough to refresh the rune cooldowns often enough to matter either. So let's look at the same rotation in BP.
Five Rune abilities and two Rune Dumps per half-cycle. (10.5s)
Another five Rune abilities and two Rune Dumps in the second half cycle (21s)
Now you have zero downtime, and at worst you're delaying your next half cycle by 0.5s. The rotation, however, is much tighter. After a full cycle (two rune rotations) you still have the same amount of specials done. The difference in the time it takes to complete is only 4s shorter. And it will remain 4s shorter. Let's look at this:
With UP:
1st half-cycle : 7 seconds
2nd half-cycle : 17 seconds
3rd half-cycle : 27 seconds
4th half-cycle : 37 seconds
5th half-cycle : 47 seconds
6th half-cycle : 57 seconds
With BP:
1st half-cycle : 10.5 seconds
2nd half-cycle : 21 seconds
3rd half-cycle : 31.5 seconds
4th half-cycle : 42 seconds
5th half-cycle : 52.5 seconds
6th half-cycle : 63 seconds
After 3 full cycles, UP is 6 seconds faster. This is roughly 10% faster for a 15% loss in damage. The "10% faster" mark diminishes as the fights increase in length. After 6 full cycles, it's only 8% faster (117 seconds vs. 126 seconds). The only time UP -might- do more is after a SINGLE full cycle where it's 20% faster (17 seconds vs. 21 seconds), but what boss lasts 17 or 21 seconds? Even in heroics, you can expect boss fights to last at least 45-60 seconds.
And once again, you're losing damage on fixed time abilities such as abilities with cooldowns (Howling Blast, which -- currently -- can only be used once every 6 seconds) and diseases (which are fixed at 12, 15, 18 seconds depending on talents) as UP doesn't increase the frequency of damage from these abilities. Unholy Presence is almost strictly a PVP presence for the runspeed and being able to quickly drop a single set of runes into someone. Even as Unholy w/ Necrosis and BCB, you're going to have 15% more procs/hits, but they're going to do 15% less damage in UP.
TL;DR -- UP is not better than BP -ever- for PVE. Sorry for the long post.
Post by
blademeld
I think, again, I know nothing of Death Knights.
quoting myself for re-emphasis.
Not entirely correct. At least for a Blood Rotation.
Exactly the reason I simplified it as much as possible.
TL;DR -- UP is not better than BP -ever- for PVE. Sorry for the long post.
I like lengthy posts that make me think.
Anywho, I suggest you take into account that UH gives 15% run speed, something to think about in AoE heavy encounters I suppose.
Dead DPS doesn't cause any damage.
Post by
Astoriel
In a 25 man raid scenario, the chances of you having an Unholy 2H Spec'd DK is high. That's 15% runspeed to the entire raid regardless of what presence you're in (for the DK w/ the talent too -- auras are not linked to their namesake presence). This buff and Ebon Plaguebringer are the two biggest reasons to bring one.
And regardless of your knowledge (or lack) of DKs, I just think it's helpful to have this information and the logic behind it present here. It was not meant as an attack towards you. :)
Post by
blademeld
You're right, faster swings does increase your PPMs, however, Blood Caked Blade shouldn't be greater than your auto-attacks from what I can gather at a quick glance, and your rotations should do more damage than your auto-attacks.
Post by
275125
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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