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Should balance/resto druids be allowed to roll on cloth
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Post by
Lightrain
When you are gearing a guild, armor proficiency comes first.
I.E.-Boomkin=leather caster gear until the cloth wearers don't need it.
Cloth gets priority on cloth because they have priest, mages, and warlocks fighting over the same items, and don't need boomkins, shamies, and pallies adding to the epic fail of fighting over loot.
Post by
PureGold
How did this last more than one answer, just, yes..leave your guild. Seriously.
Post by
PureGold
When you are gearing a guild, armor proficiency comes first.
I.E.-Boomkin=leather caster gear until the cloth wearers don't need it.
Cloth gets priority on cloth because they have priest, mages, and warlocks fighting over the same items, and don't need boomkins, shamies, and pallies adding to the epic fail of fighting over loot.
That is a way different story.
Post by
Lightrain
No, it's the answer.
Cloth gets priority on cloth. Leather on leather, plate on plate, etc., etc.
This way everyone has a chance to roll on what they need.
That's like a hunter or shaman getting leather over the rogue or feral druid.
If cloth needs, cloth gets.
BUT, if you are in a good guild, and said person(s) roll, and it isn't a major upgrade, and said person(s) is nice, and passes item to you, all the better. There is an option. IMO, what you should do, is possibly have an off armor proficiency roll while posting your fail item. If they are all in epic 10 man, and you are in 72 blue or green, they will probably defer it to you.
This arguement doesn't have anything to do with leather vs cloth itemization. This arguement has to do with 3 classes fighting over an item, and you adding a 4th(or 5th and 6th). While they can only wear the said armor proficiency, and you can wear both(shamies and paladins, etc.... ).
Get the idea?
Armor Proficiency>off class>off spec
A good loot master would check the boomkins before defering to general "off spec" rolls if the clothies don't need them.
Rogues and druids are the clothies of melee dps, and they are hard to gear as well.
Post by
214558
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Post by
Lightrain
From how I read the OP, it was an upgrade for basically everyone. And cloth, altho I agree can be a very big upgrade or even best in slot for a boomkin, is for clothies.
Sure you can discuss it all you want, but it comes down to armor proficiency classes that are main spec for that item get first choice on a drop. If said drop drops all the time, it won't be long until you get to roll on it. Just be patient. =)
I picked up shammy gear for my pally after the sham's already had the 2 slots filled. It was the 3rd or 4th raid we did. If you don't fight over loot too much, everyone will be happy(and geared in no time). Fighting over loot drops in raid is IMO bad for moral.
This would be another obstacle blizz instated, and brings in the whole "team play" concept. Sure others can use it. If you want a loot setup that way, find a guild that does it that way. If not, just be patient. The loot will come around to you if you really need it.
Post by
89503
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306438
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Post by
Anidmountd
I personally as a Holy Pally wear plate for the most part. Only thing I don't atm is my Mail from Gothik 10 man in Naxx. That chest I put 2 +19 sp gems in it. Now personally it all depends on how everyone wants to gear up. I personally am going for crit rating and +sp on my gear with +int also. I put +19 sp gems in and if I can a +16 int. Now this makes me at 18.6k mana, almost 1900 sp, over 35.6% crit chance for my Holy but like 78 mana in and my haste is only like 160 or so. Still how I see it is now being geared like this I am about where I want so when I roll on something possibly cloth or leather or mail if it's an upgrade I can say hey I gain this and lose this. Everyone knows how I'm gearing so they will realize it's a legitimate rule.
It also depends on guild. We do 10 man Naxx atm and personally we have the rule where all Epic drops(not T7 tokens) eliminate you from anymore for the week. Now lets say I get a plate shoulders from the second boss in Arachnid. Now that means I can roll against anyone else who hasn't gotten a piece. This works for us atm but the first week in Naxx I haven't had to roll against no one and have gotten 3 pieces of gear. I did roll the on T7 chest and won that as well. Although it's main upgrade was the Set bonus since I have the T7 legs already.
So if you want it to all be fair your guild should take the time to try and set it up so no one can keep rolling if they have already got loot. That is just my 2 cents. My guild personally hold tokens as a seperate group so once you get 1 token for the week you can't get another. If I was you I'd try to get some way to make it a bit more fair for cloth wearers but than again some plate stuff that might drop I DO NOT want since it goes against my current gearing plans so everyone should have a plan on what they are aiming for in stats and all that so the GM knows it's an upgrade.
If anything make it so if the boomkin gets the cloth and than leather later on that no on else wanted that next week they can't roll on a cloth item or something to make up for it.
Post by
182246
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283765
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187275
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Post by
Lightrain
This thread shows why progression raids are restricted more than farming raids. We do loot as muppet said, with exception to weapons and tier tokens. We try to push them to people that need them the most, and therefore post existing items against the upgrade item, and the officers vote based on most needed, and a general "dkp" option based on shear attendance to raiding and helping the guild progress.
I'm sure some get upset about this, but that's how it works. The better you learn to deal, the more likely you will get invited to be a main part of the raid.
^^ Read that. If you start "slacking" in a raid, you will probably get ignored when you whine about not being in the next one. You may even get /gkicked for being a whiny nab.
L2Deal. The more you contribute, and show your skill/worth/effort, the more likely you will be ABLE to roll on that cloth best in slot item. Go sulk in a non progressing/farming guild.
Post by
101776
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Post by
windstrum
I think main-spec healers and tanks should have priority on rolls.
Beyond that, if its an upgrade and you can wear it, all is fair.
Post by
Rubendesmet619
Like has been said before in the "history" of warrior DPS a lot of non-plate pieces have been the best in the game.
Gloves of immortal dusk anyone? Leather head from Illidan? Mail head in vannila?
I take an item based on the stats on it, if a leather item gives me more AP, crit and hit f.ex. even if it has agility or whatever I would be an idiot not to roll for it.
If shamans/hunters/rogues whine about this I can tell that Mutirogue he at least can get his weapons without a problem. As a TG warrior im rolling against 7! other people more then often in my raid consisting of DK's, other TG warriors and retridins. I can start a debate about how warriors scale most with their weapons because of 0 diseases/magic damage but I don't.
Post by
Kmix
I roll on whatever will be an upgrade for me, and yes i have been kicked out of raids and such cus they say im ninja because needing that cloth epic belt to replace my green cloth belt:) The point is that Blizzard did not design cloth gear for mages priests warlocks, they designed em for all classes who can wear it and can use the stats! QQ( i wrote QQ cus it makes me seem more pro)
Post by
Fhoulan
Simple answer, you should be able to roll on it.
Most of the people saying that you shouldn't, or only after the cloth users are good on their gear, are using flawed logic based off of the fact that there are a lot of classes fighting over cloth that can only wear cloth. Or, that you can wear leather so since you have a choice and they don't you have to wait longer.
Fail in both cases. You are a caster, ranged dps. Just because Blizz didn't itemize a piece of leather for you(in the same content/instance/raid) that equals or exceeds a piece of cloth does not make it fair that you don't get an equal chance. Cloth/leather does not matter, since you shouldn't be in melee combat anyways, the stats are all that matters. And think about it, the main reason to go in there is to gear up. If you're not given a fair chance along with the other casters, then why the hell would a person go?
And no, pallies, warriors, hunters, shaman, etc should not get to roll on cloth(or leather) just because they can wear it. They are physical dps (in this case we're assuming non-caster specs for pallies and shammies), ability to wear it does not give right. For caster pallies/shammies, this case is different because there are ample pieces of plate that afford SP/int/casting stats for pallies, shaman have enough mail, etc etc.
In the end, saying no is a case of gimping a player just because they can wear a material that 75% of the time isn't itemized to be useful to them at all.
Fixed grammatical errors.
Fixed wording that implied hunters melee, see next page's post by Aenock123 and my post that follows for explanation
Post by
Lightrain
While I agree that the itemizing is pretty harsh on leather, and the best caster gear for boomkins is often cloth, they get their leather caster gear as well. If they need to upgrade, they will. It's not like this content is going away.
If you are starting naxx with your guild, armor proficiency and main spec take priority.
If you are pugging, stats/main spec take priority. Armor proficiency would have no stake in the matter.
What you fail to understand is, out of your 4-10 caster dps, maybe 2 are boomkins, and maybe 2 resto druids. That means the majority of caster dps can only wear cloth.
Sure, it's a bit unfair for boomkins who have craptastic stats on leather caster gear. Just be patient, the extra 200 or so dps from those "best in slot" items will come eventually. Until then, just accept your fate.
Otherwise, build some skills and be a good kitty dps. Then you can't QQ about cloth anymore, and will instead be QQing about the ninja rogues taking your "best in slot" tanking/dps gear because it happens to be their best in slot/upgrade as well.
I'm not by any means arguing about whether cloth is itemized better for boomkins or not. I'm just stating the harsh facts that you don't understand.
Post by
Fhoulan
I understand the facts perfectly. My post was only to point out that the ability to wear another type of armor doesn't matter when you break it down to the simple truth. Assuming boomkin/resto is main spec:
Caster DPS and/or caster heals need the best gear (in the case of casters best=stats, not material) to best perform their job. You deny a druid a clearly superior item because they
could
equip an inferior piece of leather, and all you're doing is gimping your raid dps/heals and disrespecting that player.
Saying "you can wear leather" while you can admit the leather is worse is like telling one of your mages,priests,locks they can roll on a +defense trinket. Yeah, they can equip it, but it's not itemized for them!
When evidence supports that an element of the game is broken (ie. not itemized properly) you don't gimp the player due to circumstances beyond their control, or all you're really doing is using it as an easy excuse to cut down whining and lower the competition on cloth rolls. Whatever the excuse is, the fact remains that to deny anyone a piece of gear that is without a doubt itemized for their class is to admit you're not using
logic
, which means I don't want to have anything to do with any WoW activities that rely on your judgement.
That being said, this all assumes that the upgrade is not a larger upgrade for a cloth-wearer as has been stated before.
I bet those boomkin/trees get their chances on the same trinkets/rings/amulets that the cloth-wearers do right? That's because people are forced to look at the stats, and not bias themselves based on a material that as a spec is irrelevant.
And just for conversation's sake, my main is a 'lock and I would never exclude a druid from a roll, even if it was a piece I needed, as long as they were in the same spot equipment-wise.
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