This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
An article on Varian Wrynn being right
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Skreeran
As for the comparison with Terrorism, like I said, it's just something that ran through my mind. It's not perfect, it might not even be applicable, I just had that comparison running through my head and felt it might be applicable. If you don't think so we can move on and continue the debate.
Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
I just took a crushing blow and 5 crits from walls of text, and i haven't gotten much healing. :(
In all seriousness, all i have to add, is that seriously, the broken front is the hordes wrong doing i seriously dont think you guys can rationalize that. dont try to, the horde messed up there. IMO garrosh should be sent to stormwind personally by thrall to be tried and punished by king varian himself, that might help diplomatic relations a bit.
Thrall already has a guilty concience for the the death of Grom Hellscream, I doubt he would send his son to the gallows.
Also, killing a prominent leader of the Horde would hardly help relations. I know this can be related to Proudmoore, but Garrosh is not on that scale of twatness quite yet.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Supremacy
I'm going to do something that I occasionally do, here. I'm just going to clarify my position.
I do not think the Horde as a whole is an evil organization. I do not think that war would really benefit anyone. I don't even really think anyone is totally right.
The main reason I started this thread was because I read that article on Wowinisider, which I thought was very well written. I also got kind of tired of people continuously saying that Varian was some warmongering, hotheaded, irrational bigot who was going to cause the destruction of Stormwind, and such. Of course, when pressed for examples of this, the response I received was usually "He spent the time in the arenas and now he thinks horde are teh ebil and is all 'I see Horde and kill orcs lol lolbbq'". That...that really was it. There was never a concrete example given of an unjustifiable, irrational action.
I honestly just wanted to see where people were coming from with that. Also, I have too much free time right now, and I write a lot.
I know. I know. It's hard to tell from my posts, but take my word for it.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I think he is doing what he thinks is best. I don't think he's just flying off the handle. I think that what he thinks is best is 99% wrong.
Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
He's wrong, in many ways. First, let's write off the things that he's not aware of...
Garona (Both times)
The Arenas Ownership
The RAS being Traitors at the Wrathgate
And he's just wrong about:
Thrall supporting the Horde's behavior in Northrend
Old Horde=New Horde
Heck, let's just run with that last one.
If we don't count that, Varian's list of problems with the Horde runs down to the Wrathgate, and the meeting where Garona ambushed them.
The Broken Front happened after he declared war, and so did the meeting in Dalaran.
But while I do think he may be a bit rash (and we can blame that on his ordeal back to back as a gladiator and then Onyxia), I think he is doing what he thinks is best. I just think that he's wrong. The Horde is not evil. The Horde has not been fighting the Alliance at every opportunity. I can't really think of any real battles between the two until the Wrathgate, and it was immediately after that that Varian declared war. And as I've pushed before, that is not tactically wise. Even if he fought back against the Horde, certianly don't declare war on them and have even the more reserved members label you an enemy.
Here's a scenario. We have two hypothetical groups of Orcs (one Warsong and one Frostwolf)in Northrend, and a group of Tauren and a group of Troll in Kalimdor. The Tauren and Trolls are basically at peace with the Alliance on Kalimdor, and the Frostwolf orcs are not being aggressive to the Alliance. The Frostwolves are fighting the Scourge alongside the Alliance even. The Warsongs, however, are being really agressive, because that's their thing. Because of one group of Orcs, Varian declares a full-scale war against the Horde on top of the war against the Lich King. Because of this, not only are his forces more split against the Lich King, now the Frostwolves, Tauren, and Trolls have all labeled the Alliance as enemies and are much, much more prone to fighting. Now both sides are fighting a useless war against eachother, but their individual forces are also split in their fight against the Lich King.
There are two major problems on the Horde side: Garrosh and the Forsaken. I think that Thrall has given Garrosh all this power in an attempt to raise him in the absence of his father. This is so far proving to be a mistake, but Thrall has a deep-seated belief in redemption and personal change. Just as the Orcs were redeemed, he thinks that he can change Garrosh, teach him to be a better leader. This may work, but it probably won't, and someone is going to have to put Garrosh in his place, preferably Thrall, if he wants to keep his position as Warchief.
The other problem is the Forsaken. Basically, Sylvanas screwed up here. She believed that she could keep a Dreadlord in check, and Varimathras used this belief to his advantage. He slowly turned the a portion of RAS toward his cause and used them to stage a coup. I do not think that Sylvanas was in on the Wrathgate. I just don't. I think that she's ultimately good and wants what's best for her people. And as for the human experimentation, firstly, I would wager that all of those found imprisoned are Scarlet Crusade, so the Forsaken (not you or I) would justify their captivity and experimentation. In the eyes of the Forsaken, it's kill or be killed, pure and simple. And whatever they have to do to not be wiped out by their enemies (which includes just about everyone), they will do. Again, I don't justify this, but I don't think that they were just kidnapping non-hostile humans for fun. Secondly, I think that normally the RAS would be much more secretive to non-Forsaken. I mean, in-game Undercity is designed to be viewed by Forsaken. That's why everyone there only speaks in Gutterspeak. So I doubt Thrall or any non-Forsaken would have had access to the Labs, or at least the inner parts (where you find the prisoners).
So, back to my orginal point, I think that Varian is placing way too much blame on Thrall and the Horde in general. Because of one groups of orcs (Warsong) and several problems with the Forsaken (which, now that Thrall has seen the whole of what was going on, will probably be on an uncomfortably short leash), Varian is blaming the whole Horde and jumping into a war that only makes thing worse for everyone.
It's late, and so I apologize for wall of text and talking in circles. If I remember, I'll try to put together a more organized piece with bullets and everything... :P
Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Thrall already has a guilty concience for the the death of Grom Hellscream, I doubt he would send his son to the gallows.
Also, killing a prominent leader of the Horde would hardly help relations. I know this can be related to Proudmoore, but Garrosh is not on that scale of twatness quite yet.
IMO execting him would be by far the best thing to do who cares who's son he is a good example of the road Garrosh is heading down would be Arthas's story it's really not so different from it if you think about it
(for future posts my name on wowhead doesn't make me biast just chose this name for my ability to massacre horde :P)Would you kill your son if he were goading your enemies? I doubt you would. Thrall has basically taken Grom's son under his wing.
Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
374045
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
166613
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.