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An article on Varian Wrynn being right
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Post by
Supremacy
Mingling or not, starting a war with the Horde is not a wise action. If their not desperate enough to focus on the threat and deal with the Horde later, then they should be. If it weren't for the Horde, they'd all be hungry for brains right now.
Which is kind of a funny thing to say given the events at the Broken Front. I mean, they were going to secure a significant victory against Arthas and his forces, but, you know, apparently the Horde thought it was a good time to attack. From behind. While the Alliance was putting aside the bad blood between them and working together to stop someone trying to zombify the world.
It's only been 20 years for them to change more than 45 years of Old Horde warrior culture. And they were at war with the Ogres before that. Peace is a fairly new concept to them, especially with the Alliance. People like Thrall are the greatest hope for a peaceful future Horde, and Varian wants to kill him.
Given what's been happening with the Horde as a whole under Thrall's watch, if he really is in charge of the entire Horde?
I can't say I blame him.
Wrathgate, Undercity, Broken Front, Dalaran attack. Successive motions by the Horde against the Alliance. In rapid succession. What, you want Varian to wait until the Horde does something else before he starts remembering that these are the same people who burned Stormwind to the ground? A lot of people seem to be letting that go. This isn't a case where two different people with no history just started having beef. This is a case where one side attempted to destroy the world before. Saying "old hatreds" and "bitter memories" is unfair, as it makes it seem like the members of the Alliance aren't justified in being wary of the intentions of orcs.
Part of accepting responsibility for what you've done in the past is knowing that that will color how people look at you in the future. A well known particularly vicious pyromaniac who has since "reformed" can't get upset because people look at him when funny when his new home burns down right after he gets fire insurance.
Post by
Supremacy
Also...I should probably mention this.
I started this thread linking to an article entitled
Varian Wrynn is Right
.
I would be remiss if I didn't link to what I assume to be the counterpoint to that article,
Why Varian Wrynn Is A Fool (and why it may not matter)
.
That second article is,frankly, not as well written as the first. Which has nothing to do with any "bias", or anything like that. Generally, if you have to start out by saying something like "why this person is a fool" instead of "why this person is wrong", you're...you're already grasping.
Still. It's worth a read.
Post by
Skreeran
Which is kind of a funny thing to say given the events at the Broken Front. I mean, they were going to secure a significant victory against Arthas and his forces, but, you know, apparently the Horde thought it was a good time to attack. From behind. While the Alliance was putting aside the bad blood between them and working together to stop someone trying to zombify the world.1. I have consistantly said that this was a bad move on that particular groups part
2. Varian had just declared war. The Horde was now at war with the Alliance, and this particular group of orcs took it seriously, although their actions were still dishonourable.
Given what's been happening with the Horde as a whole under Thrall's watch, if he really is in charge of the entire Horde?
I can't say I blame him.
Wrathgate, Undercity, Broken Front, Dalaran attack. Successive motions by the Horde against the Alliance. In rapid succession. What, you want Varian to wait until the Horde does something else before he starts remembering that these are the same people who burned Stormwind to the ground? A lot of people seem to be letting that go. This isn't a case where two different people with no history just started having beef. This is a case where one side attempted to destroy the world before. Saying "old hatreds" and "bitter memories" is unfair, as it makes it seem like the members of the Alliance aren't justified in being wary of the intentions of orcs.
Part of accepting responsibility for what you've done in the past is knowing that that will color how people look at you in the future. A well known particularly vicious pyromaniac who has since "reformed" can't get upset because people look at him when funny when his new home burns down right after he gets fire insurance.1. Thrall has actually been doing a pretty good job. The Alliance and Horde have been doing pretty well in the years that Thrall has been Warchief, and the problems are just popping up now in the areas he has less control in.
2. Wrathgate was an unforeseen act of treason, Sylvanas is the one who dropped the ball here, and she almost died because of it, don't expect ot see it again. Undercity is part of the same event. The Broken front was done as an attack on an enemy who just declared war on you. It was dishonourable and tactically unsound, but all's fair in love and war. The Dalaran attack was made by an idiot orc and encouraged by a trigger-happy human. Varian certainly didn't make any attempt to difuse the situation, he only encouraged it.
3. The Orcs burned Stormwind a generation ago and under the influence of demon blood. While it is still something the Horde should be responsible for, Thrall is working towards peace, because that's what is best for both the Horde and Alliance. What does Varian hope to accomplish with war?
Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
(Really, if you could please touch up your grammar and punctuation, it makes it a ton easier to read).
And Thrall isn't so much of an exception, we got Saurfang, Saurfang Jr., Eitrigg, Rexxar, etc.
The point that Blizzard has made and is continuing to make is that neither the Horde or the Alliance is good or evil at this point, but are both doing what is best for their people. (Not including Northrend, I really don't like Garrosh and his lackies).
The particular article wasn't quite as good as the "Why Varian Wrynn is Right" article, and I think it would have been better if instead of making the point "Why Varian is not justified" if it had gone with "Why the Horde is Justified."
It really bugs me that Varian wants to exterminate the Horde. I mean, what does he think this war is gonna come down to? It's going to mean nothing but destruction of one side or the other unless peace can be made.
Post by
Supremacy
Wrathgate was an unforeseen act of treason, Sylvanas is the one who dropped the ball here, and she almost died because of it, don't expect ot see it again. Undercity is part of the same event. The Broken front was done as an attack on an enemy who just declared war on you. It was dishonourable and tactically unsound, but all's fair in love and war. The Dalaran attack was made by an idiot orc and encouraged by a trigger-happy human. Varian certainly didn't make any attempt to difuse the situation, he only encouraged it.
2. Seriously? That's the defense you're going to take, here? "All's fair in love and war?" I'll let you rethink that. Because if you're going to try to come up with a justification for the actions of the Horde at the Broken Front, you will really have to do better than "All's fair in love and war". Because that's never true.
The Dalaran attack was made by an "idiot orc" who happened to be a diplomat, along with Thrall. Garrosh was not just representing himself when he attacked Varian, he was representing Orgrimmar. And even if he didn't understand that, I'm fairly certain that Thrall does.
And again, stop trying to blame Varian for that attack. The appropriate answer to annoyed question ("What are
they
doing here?") is not attempted regicide.
Saying that Varian refused to diffuse the situation is essentially absolving Garrosh of guilt for that. You know who should have stopped that? Garrosh. Failing that? Thrall. It shouldn't have gotten that far, especially with Thrall right there.
That's what people are talking about when they say Thrall is dropping the ball.
3. The Orcs burned Stormwind a generation ago and under the influence of demon blood. While it is still something the Horde should be responsible for, Thrall is working towards peace, because that's what is best for both the Horde and Alliance. What does Varian hope to accomplish with war?
I know, I know. Look, when I burned your house down and killed most of your family? My bad. I was possessed. Don't worry, nothing like that will ever happen again. You can trust me. We need to work together!
...sorry about that. Yeah, I know, some of my friends killed your best friend and shattered our truce, but, no, seriously. I took care of that. You can count on me. Won't happen again. We need to work together!
...sorry about that. Yeah, I know, I've been condoning experimentation on your people to fuel and research my ghastly plague machine meant to destroy everything living. Right. Won't happen again. Scout's honor. We need to work together!
...sorry about that. Yeah, I know we were trying to put bad blood behind us, and work together for the common good and stop Arthas. Right, and you guys were about to secure a foothold in his hometown. But, to be fair, we saw your backs, and we were like "Dude, how cool would it be with a knife in those backs?" Yes, this cost us the base. And yes, this gave our mutual enemy more forces. But, seriously. 100%. Those days are over. You can trust us. We need to work together!
...sorry about that. Yeah, I know, my partner tried to murder you in the middle of a diplomatic meeting because you didn't know we had been invited. I would have stopped him, but, you know, I'm not real big on stopping problems, anymore. But, seriously, we need to work together!
It is difficult to move past past transgressions if the offenders do not change their behaviors. It is difficult to try to work towards peace if one side continues screwing up. You want humans to stop acting like all orcs are bloodthirsty savages, intent on destroying Alliance lands? I think a good first step to that would be simple:
Stop killing humans
.
Seeing as how this seems to be a difficult concept for orcs to live by, I can answer the question what Varian thinks will be solved by defending the Alliance against the Horde.
He thinks maybe that will help them to stop killing humans.
Post by
Skreeran
2. Seriously? That's the defense you're going to take, here? "All's fair in love and war?" I'll let you rethink that. Because if you're going to try to come up with a justification for the actions of the Horde at the Broken Front, you will really have to do better than "All's fair in love and war". Because that's never true.Hey, it's war. Varian made sure of that. Their move was tactically stupid, not to mention dishonourable, but it's war now.
The Dalaran attack was made by an "idiot orc" who happened to be a diplomat, along with Thrall. Garrosh was not just representing himself when he attacked Varian, he was representing Orgrimmar. And even if he didn't understand that, I'm fairly certain that Thrall does.
And again, stop trying to blame Varian for that attack. The appropriate answer to annoyed question ("What are they doing here?") is not attempted regicide.
Saying that Varian refused to diffuse the situation is essentially absolving Garrosh of guilt for that. You know who should have stopped that? Garrosh. Failing that? Thrall. It shouldn't have gotten that far, especially with Thrall right there.
That's what people are talking about when they say Thrall is dropping the ball. Like I said. The fight hadn't started, and Varian encouraged it. Garrosh made a stupid move, and Varian encouraged a stupid move.
I'd like to bring up my previous analogy...
One member of two rival gangs are both in a bar. One says "What's he doing here!" (which I might mention is rather insulting on it's own. It's a territorial affront, the equivalent of saying "Me and my crew own this bar.")
Then gang member 2 makes a fist or draws a knife or whatever. He's wrong at this point. His buddy says "Be cool, man. Be cool."
At this point, the gang member 1 says "Come and get me, you wuss." and draws his own knife.
At this point gang member 2 attacks.
They were both pushing for a fight. They were both wrong. Neither was acting in self-defense.
And here's a more appropriate anaolgy for your "...sorry." snippets...
...Sorry, some friends of my friend killed your best friend and my best friend's son, but we went and killed those responsible.
...Sorry about that. My friends had been experimenting on those that were trying to destroy them, if I had known about this, I would have stopped it.
Varian: Sorry don't cut it! I'm gonna kill you and everyone else who has taken your side!
...Sorry, because you attacked me, a single scouting group attacked one of your groups. Yeah, it was stupid and dishonorable of them, I know.
...Sorry, my general attacked you in the middle of a diplomatic meeting. I would have stopped him, but you challanged him before I could get him under control.
And like I said, what does Varian intend to do by attacking the Horde (that's not defense, that's retaliation)? Does he just plan to kill them all?
Post by
Supremacy
Hey, it's war. Varian made sure of that. Their move was tactically stupid, not to mention dishonourable, but it's war now.
"Tactically unsound"
"Dishonourable".
With war, I mean...it's really that first one. Your first plan for war is to allow your enemy to become stronger? To give up your own positions?
I told a friend of mine about this He summed it up pretty succinctly.
"Look! There our enemies are, fighting our other enemies who can raise the dead! Let's kill them! CHARGE!"
"Why don't we just blow our brains out right here, Captain?"
Stop defending this action. You can't at one time say that both sides should work together against a common enemy, and then go on to say that whatever happens is fair in war. That's not cool in general.
But in this case, everyone I've spoken to, everything I've read, even the endings of the quests in WoW...no one is acting like this is anything beyond a phenomenally stupid case of Horde aggression that screwed over both sides and swelled the ranks of the greater enemy.
The only way you could defend this is by changing what reality is.
Like I said. The fight hadn't started, and Varian encouraged it. Garrosh made a stupid move, and Varian encouraged a stupid move.
I'd like to bring up my previous analogy...
First of all, taking a defensive stance against someone who has just drawn a weapon on you and has a history of trying to slaughter you and your people is not a stupid move.
Garrosh was in the wrong here. Garrosh gave the first insult, Garrosh drew weapons first, and Garrosh - here's the big one - attacked first. Everything Varian did was reactionary to a potentially lethal attack.
As for the analogy, that's grasping, and I think you know that. First of all, there's a difference between two gangs in a bar, and the heads of two governments who have been invited to a summit. To discuss ways to handle a larger problem, no less. In order for your analogy to be accurate, these two gangs would need to be meeting to discuss a much larger threat. The second gang must also have very recently been directly responsible for the death of someone in the first gang, and claim it was an insurrection from within. This is taking into account the history of the second gang of past transgressions.
They're at that bar. Fine. Second gang comes in. The first gang did not know they were invited. And said "What are they doing here?"
Second gang says "I knew I heard some punks in here!" and pulls a weapon.
From this point on? In the eyes of the law? Everything going down in is the fault of that person who pulled the weapon.
The first gang says "You want some? Come get some" and pulls his own weapon. Which is still well within his rights.
Second gang member attacks.
No, they are not
both
wrong, the person who pulled the weapon and attacked was wrong. Otherwise, you can blame someone for fighting back against a mugger.
A mugger pulls a weapon on a woman in the street and demands her purse, threatening her with bodily harm. She pulls a can of mace out and says "I'm not afraid of you! I won't be a victim!". Muggers attacks, she maces him.
The police do not arrest her.
And I'll save addressing those justifications for its own separate post.
Post by
Supremacy
And here's a more appropriate anaolgy for your "...sorry." snippets...
...Sorry, some friends of my friend killed your best friend and my best friend's son, but we went and killed those responsible.
Some friends of your friend...you mean your forces? Your forces that I allowed my troops to stand in arms with? Because, you know, saying "a friend of a friend" makes it sound like you're trying to distance yourself from this, and not take responsibility for the fact that you and your forces screwed up. If the Explorer's League went rogue and did this, I doubt you'd be happy if I said "Some friends of some friends".
And for the record, Saurfang the Younger did not die because of that treachery. Bolvar Fordragon died from that treachery, telling the men under his command, Horde and Alliance, to fall back, his dying breath insuring the safety of fellow soldiers.
Saurfang the Younger died because he tried to one-shot Arthas.
He was dead and gone long before the first barrel landed.
So, anyway, this was an act of aggression by the Horde. Right, by friends of the Horde. No one's keeping score, though. (Horde -1, Alliance - 0)
...Sorry about that. My friends had been experimenting on those that were trying to destroy them, if I had known about this, I would have stopped it.
Varian: Sorry don't cut it! I'm gonna kill you and everyone else who has taken your side!
Well...yeah.
I mean, this is right after you claimed you had no idea about the traitorous faction in your group. Right after Sylvannas Windrunner claimed this just came out of nowhere. Right after that. Like, you know, three hours later.
I find a bunch of human corpses and test subjects liberally placed around your city.
Would you seriously believe that? If the situations were reversed? And there were a bunch of orc test subjects being gruesomely experimented on? That Varian had no idea about what happened? Well, okay, I guess you could believe Varian not knowing, what with being gone for a while. But say, Magni, or Tyrande.
Would you buy that?
But, sure, who's keeping track?
(Horde - 2: Alliance - 0)
...Sorry, because you attacked me, a single scouting group attacked one of your groups. Yeah, it was stupid and dishonorable of them, I know.
See, this isn't actually an apology. And it wasn't "a single scouting group attacking one of our groups". That makes it sound like one of those random skirmishes. Finish the thought.
"A single one of our scouting groups attacked one of your groups that was going to secure a position that would allow us to fight against Arthas, the Lich King, that guy trying to destroy all life. We didn't just attack you, though, we attacked from behind like craven cowards, knowing you were fighting the Scourge yet somehow forgetting that your dead bodies would rise against us. We screwed you, we screwed ourselves, and quite possibly the world. But you attacked our warchief in the heat of battle, and that makes this okay. Which also means that he condones this, because if he doesn't, then we're really not attacking you for any reason other than us wanting to attack you."
It's a bit longer, but much more accurate. (Horde - 3: Alliance - 0)
...Sorry, my general attacked you in the middle of a diplomatic meeting. I would have stopped him, but you challanged him before I could get him under control.
Yeah, it would've been much better for everything if you had just laid down your arms and begged for your life. Offered yourself to Garrosh. Hid behind Jaina, or Rhonin.
THE NEXT TIME AN ORC DRAWS HIS WEAPONS AT YOU DURING A DIPLOMATIC MEETING, YOU JUST LAY THERE AND TAKE IT, YOUR MAJESTY. YOU JUST GET YOUR PURSE AND WAIT FOR SOMEONE TO SAVE YOU, SIRE.
And given Thrall's unimpressive track record as of late, are you really sure he would have stopped Garrosh?
Good thing no one's keeping track of this.
(Horde - 4: Alliance - 0)
And like I said, what does Varian intend to do by attacking the Horde (that's not defense, that's retaliation)? Does he just plan to kill them all?
I like to think that one of the keypoints of Varian's plan is to get the Horde to stop killing humans. Orcs, especially.
But I'm just pulling that out of nowhere. It's not like there are (hypothetically) four major cases of repeated, unprovoked, unwarranted Horde aggression against the Alliance.
I mean, if there were, well...that would certainly explain why Varian isn't being so docile.
Post by
Skreeran
Some friends of your friend...you mean your forces? Your forces that I allowed my troops to stand in arms with? Because, you know, saying "a friend of a friend" makes it sound like you're trying to distance yourself from this, and not take responsibility for the fact that you and your forces screwed up. If the Explorer's League went rogue and did this, I doubt you'd be happy if I said "Some friends of some friends".May I remind you that it was not the whole RAS that turned. It was concealed and up until then seemed to be working for Sylvanas. And I was speaking from Thrall's point of view. Sylvanas works under him, but it was not his fault that some members of the RAS staged a coup.
And for the record, Saurfang the Younger did not die because of that treachery. Bolvar Fordragon died from that treachery, telling the men under his command, Horde and Alliance, to fall back, his dying breath insuring the safety of fellow soldiers.
Saurfang the Younger died because he tried to one-shot Arthas.
He was dead and gone long before the first barrel landed.But many more of the Horde also died because of the Wrathgate treason.
So, anyway, this was an act of aggression by the Horde. Right, by friends of the Horde. No one's keeping score, though.Act of agression by treasonous members of the Horde. The Horde got up and dealt with those responsible. Like you said, if it had been the Explorer's League, and Varian got on the first train to Ironforge and killed the leader of the traitors, I would not be blaming Varian.
Well...yeah.
I mean, this is right after you claimed you had no idea about the traitorous faction in your group. Right after Sylvannas Windrunner claimed this just came out of nowhere. Right after that. Like, you know, three hours later.
I find a bunch of human corpses and test subjects liberally placed around your city.
Would you seriously believe that? If the situations were reversed? And there were a bunch of orc test subjects being gruesomely experimented on? That Varian had no idea about what happened? Well, okay, I guess you could believe Varian not knowing, what with being gone for a while. But say, Magni, or Tyrande.
Would you buy that?
But, sure, who's keeping track?Well, I'll give you this one. They were Scarlet Crusaders, but that's still something that the Horde should have stopped. But I doubt Thrall knew about this.
See, this isn't actually an apology. And it wasn't "a single scouting group attacking one of our groups". That makes it sound like one of those random skirmishes. Finish the thought.
"A single one of our scouting groups attacked one of your groups that was going to secure a position that would allow us to fight against Arthas, the Lich King, that guy trying to destroy all life. We didn't just attack you, though, we attacked from behind like craven cowards, knowing you were fighting the Scourge yet somehow forgetting that your dead bodies would rise against us. We screwed you, we screwed ourselves, and quite possibly the world. But you attacked our warchief in the heat of battle, and that makes this okay. Which also means that he condones this, because if he doesn't, then we're really not attacking you for any reason other than us wanting to attack you."
It's a bit longer, but much more accurate.Thrall didn't condone it. the Scouting group believed that the position was valuable and didn't want the Alliance, now their enemies, to hold it. This scouting group made a misjudgement in their own power and was also wiped out by the Scourge. The scouting group made the mistake, not the Horde as a whole.
Yeah, it would've been much better for everything if you had just laid down your arms and begged for your life. Offered yourself to Garrosh. Hid behind Jaina, or Rhonin.
THE NEXT TIME AN ORC DRAWS HIS WEAPONS AT YOU DURING A DIPLOMATIC MEETING, YOU JUST LAY THERE AND TAKE IT, YOUR MAJESTY. YOU JUST GET YOUR PURSE AND WAIT FOR SOMEONE TO SAVE YOU, SIRE.
And given Thrall's unimpressive track record as of late, are you really sure he would have stopped Garrosh?
Good thing no one's keeping track of this.He didn't have to do nothing or hide, but calling Garrosh out is the wrong thing to do. Let the Warchief handle it. Garrosh got ready to fight, and Varian called him on it. Varian wanted to fight. Garrosh hadn't even approached him yet, or anything. Garrosh drew his weapons, and before any further threat, Varian challenged him. I honestly think that had Varian behaved like a civilized person and hadn't jumped into the fight, Thrall would have gotten it under control. Garrosh was at fault, but Varian wasn't innocent either.
I like to think that one of the keypoints of Varian's plan is to get the Horde to stop killing humans. Orcs, especially.
But I'm just pulling that out of nowhere. It's not like there are (hypothetically) four major cases of repeated, unprovoked, unwarranted Horde aggression against the Alliance.
I mean, if there were, well...that would certainly explain why Varian isn't being so docile.And after that? Remember, he wants Thrall dead. What do you think that would do. I'll tell you what, it would mean the end of countless Horde and Alliance lives for no reason. Tirion, Jaina, Bolvar, Alexstrasza, and Rhonin all think that Alliance/Horde peace is best. Why can't Varian? This war is absolutely useless.
There are six outcomes:
Alliance crushes Horde, including innocents.
Horde crushes Alliance, including innocents.
Alliance crushes Horde forces, and imprisons the rest.
Horde crushes Alliance forces, and imprisons the rest.
Alliance beats back Horde until they are no longer a threat, giving the survivors a reason for vengeance.
Horde beats back Alliance until they are no longer a threat, giving the survivors a reason for vengeance.
Neither the Horde or Alliance can defeat the Scourge and other hostile forces without eachother, and all outcomes of war lead to death and suffering on both sides. Peace must be made.
Post by
Supremacy
May I remind you that it was not the whole RAS that turned. It was concealed and up until then seemed to be working for Sylvanas. And I was speaking from Thrall's point of view. Sylvanas works under him, but it was not his fault that some members of the RAS staged a coup.
Yes. Not the whole RAS. Just a significant number of them. Enough to stage a coup.
RAS...that's which side, again? Aren't they based out of Ironforge, or--
Right. Horde.
Of course, there's the problem. It's common for people to call Thrall the leader of the Horde. But if he's the leader, he's responsible for the actions of the Horde as a whole. Which means that yes, he does bear some responsibility for the Wrathgate affair. If he doesn't have any responsibility, and can't be blamed, then he can't really be the leader of the Horde. Not all of it. You can't say you're responsible for a company, and then say except for these two people when things go wrong.
But many more of the Horde also died because of the Wrathgate treason.
Soldiers, yes. But not champions.
Yes, there's a difference.
Act of agression by treasonous members of the Horde. The Horde got up and dealt with those responsible. Like you said, if it had been the Explorer's League, and Varian got on the first train to Ironforge and killed the leader of the traitors, I would not be blaming Varian.
Here's where this starts falling apart. Wrathgate. "No...no! We had no idea that RAS was doing anything like this! You have to understand, this completely blindsided us."
And then, in the Undercity, you see all these examples of open human experimentation. It kind of ruins the whole "we didn't know" defense.
Since, you know, obviously you knew. I mean it's just right there.
That's like me saying I had no idea my roommates were involved in drug smuggling even when there are mountains of white powder in my living room.
Thrall didn't condone it. the Scouting group believed that the position was valuable and didn't want the Alliance, now their enemies, to hold it. This scouting group made a misjudgement in their own power and was also wiped out by the Scourge. The scouting group made the mistake, not the Horde as a whole.
So...it wasn't the entire Horde. It was just that renegade faction that happened to screw over everyone for no real gain while fighting a larger threat. Which, of course, those in charge knew nothing about.
...there's this thing caled déjà vu....
He didn't have to do nothing or hide, but calling Garrosh out is the wrong thing to do. Let the Warchief handle it. Garrosh got ready to fight, and Varian called him on it. Varian wanted to fight. Garrosh hadn't even approached him yet, or anything. Garrosh drew his weapons, and before any further threat, Varian challenged him. I honestly think that had Varian behaved like a civilized person and hadn't jumped into the fight, Thrall would have gotten it under control. Garrosh was at fault, but Varian wasn't innocent either.
You're still trying to defend the inaccurate position that Varian was in any way, shape, or form the aggressor of that conflict.
Reality doesn't support that perspective. That's...that's just not what happened. Varian said "What are they doing here?" Garrosh said "I thought I smelled the stench of Alliance pigs." The extent of Thrall's handling it was saying "Garrosh" in a disapproving tone.
Varian didn't want to fight. Varian was prepared to fight. There's a difference. If he wanted to fight, he would have drawn his weapon as soon as Garrosh came in. And I have to think after spending all that time in the arena, Varian could come up with a better insult than saying "they" with some edge in his voice. All he did was ask a question. Sure, he sounded annoyed, but the Wrathgate and the discovery of human experimentation in the Undercity was still pretty recent. Some friction is understandable.
Also, what?
"Garrosh drew his weapons, and before any further threat, Varian challenged him"
That IS a threat. That is a gigantic threat. You want to see how big of a threat that is? Pull a weapon on a cop, or someone in the armed forces. Exposing a weapon signifies an intent to use it, usually to kill.
And even then, after all of that? Varian still gave him a chance to back off. "You want my blood, dog? Then come take it." Garrosh could have backed down. Thrall could have stepped in. But the response? Garrosh tries to kill him.
And you are still somehow trying to insist that Varian is at fault.
Neither the Horde or Alliance can defeat the Scourge and other hostile forces without eachother, and all outcomes of war lead to death and suffering on both sides. Peace must be made.
You're right. The time has come to put aside our differences and work towards the common good. There is a much larger threat on the horizon. We can work together.
...whoops, Wrathgate. Whoops, Undercity. Whoops, Broken Front. Whoops, Dalaran.
But, no. Seriously this time. Go, team.
Post by
Skreeran
Yes. Not the whole RAS. Just a significant number of them. Enough to stage a coup.
RAS...that's which side, again? Aren't they based out of Ironforge, or--
Right. Horde.
Of course, there's the problem. It's common for people to call Thrall the leader of the Horde. But if he's the leader, he's responsible for the actions of the Horde as a whole. Which means that yes, he does bear some responsibility for the Wrathgate affair. If he doesn't have any responsibility, and can't be blamed, then he can't really be the leader of the Horde. Not all of it. You can't say you're responsible for a company, and then say except for these two people when things go wrong.Some responsibilty, but not all. And he took care of the problem.
Soldiers, yes. But not champions.
Yes, there's a difference.1. Not so much.
2. Bolvar would have been dead with or without the RAS attack.
Here's where this starts falling apart. Wrathgate. "No...no! We had no idea that RAS was doing anything like this! You have to understand, this completely blindsided us."
And then, in the Undercity, you see all these examples of open human experimentation. It kind of ruins the whole "we didn't know" defense.
Since, you know, obviously you knew. I mean it's just right there.
That's like me saying I had no idea my roommates were involved in drug smuggling even when there are mountains of white powder in my living room.The Horde knew that the Forsaken was developing a new plague, but it was not intended for use on anyone but the Scourge and the Scarlet Crusade. Putress actually saved both sides before, as a matter of fact, because of this.
So...it wasn't the entire Horde. It was just that renegade faction that happened to screw over everyone for no real gain while fighting a larger threat. Which, of course, those in charge knew nothing about.
...there's this thing caled déjà vu....Wasn't renegade, it was a scouting group doing what they felt needed to be done. Korm, a general agreed with them. It's his job to win wars, not be nice. I don't think it was tactically sound, but he felt that it was, and he's the general.
You're still trying to defend the inaccurate position that Varian was in any way, shape, or form the aggressor of that conflict.
Reality doesn't support that perspective. That's...that's just not what happened. Varian said "What are they doing here?" Garrosh said "I thought I smelled the stench of Alliance pigs." The extent of Thrall's handling it was saying "Garrosh" in a disapproving tone.Thrall said "Control yourself!", we don't know what would have happened had Varian not challenged him, I think that Thrall would have gotten him under control.
Varian didn't want to fight. Varian was prepared to fight. There's a difference. If he wanted to fight, he would have drawn his weapon as soon as Garrosh came in. And I have to think after spending all that time in the arena, Varian could come up with a better insult than saying "they" with some edge in his voice. All he did was ask a question. Sure, he sounded annoyed, but the Wrathgate and the discovery of human experimentation in the Undercity was still pretty recent. Some friction is understandable.
Also, what?
"Garrosh drew his weapons, and before any further threat, Varian challenged him"
That IS a threat. That is a gigantic threat. You want to see how big of a threat that is? Pull a weapon on a cop, or someone in the armed forces. Exposing a weapon signifies an intent to use it, usually to kill.
And even then, after all of that? Varian still gave him a chance to back off. "You want my blood, dog? Then come take it." Garrosh could have backed down. Thrall could have stepped in. But the response? Garrosh tries to kill him.
And you are still somehow trying to insist that Varian is at fault.
We're not talking about guns. We're talking about hand to hand combat. There is a difference. Garrosh was across the room and Thrall was getting him under control. Then Varian gave him a challenge. Please read my gang analogy again.
Garrosh drew his weapons. Thrall told him to chill out. Varian challenges Garrosh, and draws his own weapons, Garrosh attacked. I'm not sure that Garrosh would have attacked had Varian kept his mouth shut.
You're right. The time has come to put aside our differences and work towards the common good. There is a much larger threat on the horizon. We can work together.
...whoops, Wrathgate. Whoops, Undercity. Whoops, Broken Front. Whoops, Dalaran.
But, no. Seriously this time. Go, team.You think the the Alliance can handle the Lich King alone? Really? What about after that? Can they handle Azshara alone? The rest of the Burning Legion? The other 2 or 3 Old Gods? They can't.
There are six outcomes in a war between the Alliance and Horde, and none of them are good:
Alliance crushes Horde, including innocents.
Horde crushes Alliance, including innocents.
Alliance crushes Horde forces, and imprisons the rest.
Horde crushes Alliance forces, and imprisons the rest.
Alliance beats back Horde until they are no longer a threat, giving the survivors a reason for vengeance.
Horde beats back Alliance until they are no longer a threat, giving the survivors a reason for vengeance.
Post by
Supremacy
Some responsibilty, but not all. And he took care of the problem.
All right. So, you're agreeing that Thrall is at least partially responsible for the betrayal at the Wrathgate.
1. Not so much.
2. Bolvar would have been dead with or without the RAS attack.
1. Yes, there is. Hell, there's a difference between an infantryman and a general. Unless you think there's no difference between if a Warsong Grunt was killed and if High Overlord Saurfang was killed.
2. There's no way to know this. For all we know, Bolvar had a plan. A plan more fleshed out than try to one-shot the Lich King. He may have, you know, actually attacked with all his forces.
But he died because of the betrayal at the Wrathgate. The betrayal that Thrall, as you said, bears some responsibility for.
The Horde knew that the Forsaken was developing a new plague, but it was not intended for use on anyone but the Scourge and the Scarlet Crusade. Putress actually saved both sides before, as a matter of fact, because of this.
The people who have read the Arthas novel? They seem to all agree that Sylvannas had every intent to use this new plague on everyone living. I haven't read the novel, so I'm just going on the reports of about eight different people who have read it.
So, no, Sylvannas's hands are not clean in this. And since Sylvannas is a leader of one of the factions of the Horde, that also suggests that the Horde's hands aren't clean in this. And if Thrall is the leader of the Horde....
Wasn't renegade, it was a scouting group doing what they felt needed to be done. Korm, a general agreed with them. It's his job to win wars, not be nice. I don't think it was tactically sound, but he felt that it was, and he's the general.
Here's the problem with this. First of all, that boneheaded move did not help to win a war. In fact, it actually cost them that position. Because somehow, this general seemed to lose sight of the fact that the Scourge could raise the dead. Or his scouting group did. Whatever. Someone dropped the ball.
Second, if this was not a renegade group, then this means this group is acting on behalf of Orgrimmar. On behalf of the Horde. Which means that it wasn't some random group, it was Orgrimmar's decision to attack Alliance soldiers from behind while they were fighting off the Scourge. This decision led to the loss of Alliance lives, the decimation of Horde forces, and the loss of that point they were all trying to get.
This decision, then, came from Orgrimmar? If that is the case, then, again, Thrall has some responsibility for that.
Also, you really should stop trying to defend this action. Saying it was done because of war, then saying it was tactically unsound undermines--
Whatever.
Thrall said "Control yourself!", we don't know what would have happened had Varian not challenged him, I think that Thrall would have gotten him under control.
Do you think Garrosh was really listening to Thrall? Because, me, if someone tells me "control yourself", if I'm listening to them? I stop trying to fight.
"Control yourself" does not mean attack someone. Which Garrosh did. And this is because Varian challenged him, somehow?
How exactly is preparing to defend yourself from an attack a challenge?
We're not talking about guns. We're talking about hand to hand combat. There is a difference. Garrosh was across the room and Thrall was getting him under control. Then Varian gave him a challenge. Please read my gang analogy again.
Garrosh drew his weapons. Thrall told him to chill out. Varian challenges Garrosh, and draws his own weapons, Garrosh attacked. I'm not sure that Garrosh would have attacked had Varian kept his mouth shut.
Sure.
Pull a knife on a cop. See how that works out for you.
I read your gang analogy. It did not apply to the situation. Gor one, Garrosh made no attempt to control himself. I say this because he didn't stand down, or even put away his weapons.
And, seriously, you just want Varian to stand by after a death threat? Seriously, you've got to stop looking at this scenario as one where Varian was in the wrong, somehow. Garrosh is clearly in the wrong. If you want to attack something, attack Garrosh. Blame Garrosh for actually being the hothead people are making Varian out to be. Blame Rhonin for not telling Varian the orcs were invited. Blame Thrall for not making more of an effort to control Garrosh.
But you can't blame Varian for making a motion to defend himself.
You think the the Alliance can handle the Lich King alone? Really? What about after that? Can they handle Azshara alone? The rest of the Burning Legion? The other 2 or 3 Old Gods? They can't.
So...what then? Every attempt to work together has been ruined by the Horde, splinter factions of the Horde, boneheaded decisions by the Horde, or hotheaded members of the Horde. And almost every single time, this was payed for in the blood of the Alliance.
Are you still proposing that they work together? I mean, the actions at the Broken Front show that they can't even work side-by-side. This isn't just a matter of the Horde not helping, this is a matter of the Horde openly attacking the Alliance.
Varian did not start this war.
There are six outcomes in a war between the Alliance and Horde, and none of them are good:
Alliance crushes Horde, including innocents.
Horde crushes Alliance, including innocents.
Alliance crushes Horde forces, and imprisons the rest.
Horde crushes Alliance forces, and imprisons the rest.
Alliance beats back Horde until they are no longer a threat, giving the survivors a reason for vengeance.
Horde beats back Alliance until they are no longer a threat, giving the survivors a reason for vengeance.
I suppose "good" kind of depends on your perspective. Because I imagine there are camps in both factions that could live with a world without the Alliance/Horde.
Post by
Skreeran
Well, I'm sick of arguing. You'll never see my side (Horde and Alliance are both good and evil), I'll never see yours (Alliance is good and Horde is evil).
I just want to say one more thing.
So...what then? Every attempt to work together has been ruined by the Horde, splinter factions of the Horde, boneheaded decisions by the Horde, or hotheaded members of the Horde. And almost every single time, this was payed for in the blood of the Alliance.
Are you still proposing that they work together? I mean, the actions at the Broken Front show that they can't even work side-by-side. This isn't just a matter of the Horde not helping, this is a matter of the Horde openly attacking the Alliance.
Varian did not start this war.
Look at Ahn'Qiraj. Horde and Alliance work together. Look at the Dark Portal. Horde and Alliance work together. Look at the Sunwell. Horde and Alliance work together. Look at the Wrathgate. Horde and Alliance work together.
This whole "Alliance can't work with Horde" only just started after the Wrathgate. You're making it sound like the Horde has always betrayed the Alliance at every opportunity.
I suppose "good" kind of depends on your perspective. Because I imagine there are camps in both factions that could live with a world without the Alliance/Horde.I mean good as in "good for the wellbeing of all involved." The Horde being wiped out by the Alliance is bad for the Horde. The Alliance being wiped out by the Horde is bad for the Alliance.
Neither side can defeat the forces that oppose Azeroth without the other, and killing the other side is not going to help.
Post by
Supremacy
Well, I'm sick of arguing. You'll never see my side (Horde and Alliance are both good and evil), I'll never see yours (Alliance is good and Horde is evil).
That's not what I said and you know it. That's not even kind of my position.
The issue at hand is whether Varian Wrynn is right in his actions, and if his beliefs are justified.
During the course of this, we have been examining several actions by both the Horde and Alliance. And while I won't go so far as to say that the Horde have been explicitly evil since the Northrend expedition, even you have to acknowledge the sum of their actions has been, at best, unneighborly. I was not going, though, for the sake of argument, allow you to interpret reality in odd fashions; such as claiming that Varian was somehow responsible for being attacked, or the actions at the Broken Front were acceptable. I had to check that, and check it hard.
Do not try to reduce my argument to something as simple as Alliance good, Horde bad. That demeans us both.
I just want to say one more thing.
Look at Ahn'Qiraj. Horde and Alliance work together. Look at the Dark Portal. Horde and Alliance work together. Look at the Sunwell. Horde and Alliance work together. Look at the Wrathgate. Horde and Alliance work together.
This whole "Alliance can't work with Horde" only just started after the Wrathgate. You're making it sound like the Horde has always betrayed the Alliance at every opportunity.
I suppose that's fair.
The Horde hasn't always betrayed the Alliance at every opportunity.
Just every recent opportunity in Northrend.
Which is the most recent thing.
So, these betrayals only recently started. But you suggest the Alliance forget the most recent transgressions, and just remember the good ol' days?
Sure, this man swore a blood oath against me and killed my family and friends and even my dog, but I remember back when we used to play softball together.
I mean good as in "good for the wellbeing of all involved." The Horde being wiped out by the Alliance is bad for the Horde. The Alliance being wiped out by the Horde is bad for the Alliance.
Neither side can defeat the forces that oppose Azeroth without the other, and killing the other side is not going to help.
You can never really do something for all involved. All is too inclusive. Our actions against the Scourge aren't good for Arthas, for example.
Forget which side you're on. Forget concepts of good and evil. Just imagine two bodies. They were at odds, but they've been trying to work together. The second body keeps sabotaging those efforts and killing members of the first body.
You can't work with them. You can't leave them alone, because they have shown they will attack you without provocation.
There is little choice but to eliminate that threat. Not because of old history, or grudges.
Because they keep attacking you and your people.
This, I think, is why Varian Wrynn is right.
Post by
Skreeran
You can never really do something for all involved. All is too inclusive. Our actions against the Scourge aren't good for Arthas, for example.
Forget which side you're on. Forget concepts of good and evil. Just imagine two bodies. They were at odds, but they've been trying to work together. The second body keeps sabotaging those efforts and killing members of the first body.
You can't work with them. You can't leave them alone, because they have shown they will attack you without provocation.
There is little choice but to eliminate that threat. Not because of old history, or grudges.
Because they keep attacking you and your people.
This, I think, is why Varian Wrynn is right. For one, by all involved I mean in a war between the Horde and Alliance, and I mean generally. It is not good if one side wipes out the other. Least amount of suffering and death as possible.
And as for your bodies thing, I would say that if both bodies are mutually necessary for survival, then efforts must be made to stop the threat without destroying the other body. If Varian were to kill Thrall, for example (and he wants to), it would not end the threat. It would make it worse. If the Alliance then had to destroy the Horde and was destroyed by hostile forces and greed, it's not any better.
The Alliance cannot win without the Horde and the Horde cannot win without the Alliance. Both sides must come to this understanding, and stop trying to destroy the other.
Just entertain this though here...
What if Varian succeeds? If Varian kills Thrall and the rest of the Horde, what happens? Was it fair? Is the Alliance better off? I know that myself and many others would disapprove immensely.
Bolvar, Tirion, Jaina, Rhonin, and Alexstrasza believe that the Horde and Alliance must work together.
Also, I'm sick of people thinking that Garrosh and those he's put in power represent the entire Horde.
Post by
Sigmafel
The guy mentions Clausewitz.
Considering that Clausewitz was a hack (UR DURR LET'S ANNIHILATE EVERYTHING!) in terms of military strategy, it's a good thing Varian isn't taking cues from that guy.
Post by
342791
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
In regards to your points...
1. I agree
2. I agree
3. I agree
4. I don't so much agree. Thrall is still rather young, and he has a whole lot to deal with. On top of that, I doubt the Forsaken were really up front about it. They probably weren't all "Oh, and here's our progress on the New Plague Thrall!" He probably counted on Sylvanas and Lor'themar to manage the Forsaken and Blood Elf presence in the Eastern Kingdoms, while he managed Kalimdor. That makes the most sense.
5. I agree
6. Don't agree, but it's not realyl a major point.
P.S. Is it just me, or do Horde side arguers seem to always go for the "Greater Good" argument and be the lead peace advocates, but the Alliance players are quick to point out how little "Greater Good" the Horde have been showing...ever...and how the Alliance has reason to be at war.
You seem to be arguing seperate cases. Alliance says "We have reason to start a War!" Horde says "War is tactically unsound!". Both valid. The Alliance probably shouldn't be starting a war, but they have more reason than Dubbya did by a longshot. In conclusion, it seems that the Alliance starts a war due to so many isolated incidents occouring, constantly, pointing to either an aggressive leadership or a fragmented state. After all, the Horde is held together by a balancing act, and, quite frankly, having only 1 Garrosh is quite a feat! (I will ignore Varamatheras, as he was bringing the system down from within to a large extent. Calling him Horde is like calling Onyxia Alliance.)
Exactly. I'll fight your war if you like, but I don't want to do it while I'm also fighting the Scourge and Yogg-Saron. And don't go bringing up the Broken Front, I think we've all agreed that it was at the very least a stupid move.
P.P.S. Thought I should clarify my Wrathgate stance. 3rd party behind it. Alliance aggression based on negligence of Horde; they should have been able to stop it, or, if not, told the Alliance and let them stop it (this is in the Alliance frame of mind). Its more the Horde seemed to let it happen, either by not knowing about it (Alliance says you should have, its pretty big...) or not caring. Either way, Thrall and the Horde is a nice donkey to pin the tail on, and the Alliance, from Prince to Pauper, is content to let that on.I just think that things should be settled a little more diplomatically than just "OMG you guys must have known about this! I'm gonna kill you!" If Varian could have a nice long talk with Thrall (do it in Dalaran so you don't get ambushed by an assassin, and tell Garrosh that the meeting is in Un'goro), then they could come to a mutual understanding. War is not necessary and I really don't want a useless war killing both our people.
Post by
Supremacy
Huh.
OK, we seem to have had a nice chat between 2 esteemed posters, but lets try and sort this as impartially as possible. Here is how I see it:
1. Varian is a bonehead. He likes to provoke stuff with the horde (he has a MAJOR beef with them, defiantly affecting his judgment) and is making silly moves by being so undiplomatic at meetings.
2. Varian is justified in being a bonehead. The Horde has not been the best neighbour, and Varians attitude is fully justified, but not nessersarily that wise.
...
...I mean, you can't call someone a bonehead based on (presumably) their actions, and then later on go to say that those actions are both justified and make perfect sense. Because if their actions are rational, justified, and defensible, that kind of automatically eliminates them from the bonehead category.
That's like saying it's a boneheaded move to buy new locks on my doors after there's been a rash of break-ins in the past week.
Moving past that, I haven't actually seen Varian doing that much provoking of the Horde. At all. In fact, I haven't seen one single episode of him actually initiating a conflict with the Horde outside of that brief skirmish in the Undercity. And even then, it came after he found humans and the remains of humans that had been being experimented upon.
As for being undiplomatic, Varian has been the poster child for diplomacy. I really, really hope you're not talking about him defending himself against Garrosh's unprovoked attack during that diplomatic meeting.
5. Garrosh is braindead. At a conferance about Old God nastyness, you don't go picking a fight.
Right? It's like, what the hell is his problem? I'd recommend giving him a puppy, but he'd probably cleave that, or something.
You outright knew how Varian would react (Wrathgate) so picking a fight is a bad way to go. If Garrosh didn't mean to start something, he would draw his axe, but keep it lowered, as a threat/intimidation method, without doing anything to start something. His axe was up and ready to cleave; Varian did escalate the situation, but Garrosh made the situation. Spouting insults is one thing (and expected at a Varian - Garrosh meeting) but doing that with an axe in your hand is quite the threat.
...not so right.
The first rule of diplomatic meetings?
You do not draw weapons on heads of states.
The second rule of diplomatic meetings?
You do not draw weapons on heads of states.
There is no...it's not possible to draw your weapon in a non-threatening manner. Especially after an insult. Drawing a weapon signifies that you have decided that force must be used in an encounter. Deciding force must be used in an encounter following an insult is pretty much saying "I want to hurt you". And with nutso Garrosh, that's pretty much attempted murder. It would have actually been full blown regicide, if, y'know, Garrosh can take Varian in a fight.
Varian did not escalate the situation. Why does everyone keep trying to blame Varian for that? Seriously, what was he supposed to do? What does anyone think an acceptable response to that would have been? Hide?
P.S. Is it just me, or do Horde side arguers seem to always go for the "Greater Good" argument and be the lead peace advocates, but the Alliance players are quick to point out how little "Greater Good" the Horde have been showing...ever...and how the Alliance has reason to be at war.
You seem to be arguing seperate cases. Alliance says "We have reason to start a War!" Horde says "War is tactically unsound!". Both valid.
Even if I agreed with that sentiment, I don't think that those two cases are separate. The Horde apologists saying we should work together for the greater good, the Alliance apologists saying we can't work together because you keep betraying us. The problem is that those betrayals end up being paid in the lives of Alliance men and women. Even if things were hunky-dory, you can't let another force keep slaughtering your people. It gets worse when that other force keeps ignoring or downplaying that.
In conclusion, it seems that the Alliance starts a war due to so many isolated incidents occouring, constantly, pointing to either an aggressive leadership or a fragmented state.
That's kind of the long and short of it. Really, how many isolated incidents can you have before things stop seeming so isolated?
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