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An article on Varian Wrynn being right
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Post by
Supremacy
Varian is not acting like Garrosh.
That's absurd, and I think everyone knows that.
If anything, the summit at Dalaran proved that. If Varian had been acting like Garrosh, they both would have drawn weapons and attacked as soon as they saw each other.
Varian has tried several times to go to peace treaties. One would think that Varian gave the okay to the Alliance-Horde partnership at the Wrathgate.
Garrosh is headstrong, confrontational, and willing to sacrifice everything for just a fight. He is constantly reprimanded, chastised, and in some cases, openly threatened by his own forces. That much is clear.
The only reason I can think of saying Garrosh is like Varian is to just lump Varian in that camp. Just saying "Oh, you know, Varian is like Garrosh" immediately colors anything he does. It makes people stop actually paying attention and evaluating his actions, and instead, just dismiss them as warmongering because he's "like that orc we already know is crazy." That's just not true, and I think we all know that.
You didn't see Varian trying to challenge Jaina or Bolvar to a duel before the events of Northrend, or anything. If someone disagrees with him, he's not all "Them's fightin' words!", and going on the attack.
Again, the initial
article
did an exceptional job in very persuasively documenting - several times, in several levels - how "Far from having an uncontrollable temper, Varian Wrynn has acted with relative restraint and calm . He has simply finally been pushed too far by a Horde that has rebuffed his every attempt to understand them."
The difference in this "anger" between him and Garrosh? Garrosh is just mad at everyone all the time. Thrall and Saurfang see that. His anger is just...there.
As for Varian's anger, I'll quote that article again: "The underlying causes of Varian Wrynn's anger are all unconditionally justified. Varian Wrynn is not angry at the Horde because of a series of misunderstandings and misinterpretations. He's been witness to or victim of multiple wrongdoings and atrocities perpetuated by the Horde time and time again, both the new Horde and the Old. Most, if not all of these times, the wrongdoings have been the result of outright maliciousness on the part of the Horde or its members, and in the case the so-called "peaceful" New Horde, there's been no sign whatsoever that Thrall is punishing or disciplining the perpetrators of these acts, and at the least, it is clear that he is not properly dealing with the consequences."
Seriously. What in hell else needs to happen before it's considered okay for Varian to be angry at the Horde? Another attack? Another incident of backstabbing? Another betrayal? Another attempt on his life?
That's just something I think needs to be clarified.
Varian is not now, nor has he ever been "acting like Garrosh". If you want to argue that his actions are unwise, or wrong? At least get that starting point right.
Post by
Supremacy
The biggest problem I have with people saying that Varian is right is that, by saying he's right, they're are saying that this war is okay.
No, they're not.
They're saying Varian's right. I, for one, do not think this war is a great idea. Of course, I have the benefit of, you know, knowing both sides of the story.
I can log on to a Horde character, and know that the Royal Apothecary Society is no longer a threat to the Alliance. I can know that the Scourge and the Old Gods are just itching to destroy the world. Varian doesn't have that ability.
The last thing that Azeroth needs is more fighting. The best thing to be done is for them to actually pool their resources, put aside their differences, and work together to stop the world from being destroyed. And that's not an exaggeration, either.
But that doesn't mean that Varian's not right in declaring this war. It also doesn't mean that the Horde hasn't pretty consistently been in the wrong since both sides stepped on Northrend.
Varian would be wrong in declaring this war if his actions and views weren't justified. The problem is, as the article laid out in great detail, all of them are.
Just reminds me of one of my favorite lines from a TV show I saw:
"Just because something's right, doesn't mean it isn't wrong."
Respectfully, though, I also don't think that that's your biggest problem.
I think...your problem is that by people saying Varian is right, they are also saying that Thrall and the Horde are wrong.
Unfortunately, as Blizzard has written it so far?
Thrall and the Horde have been in the wrong.
Which has been a little disappointing, as of late. I'm used to Blizzard painting both sides as having reasons, and neither one being the "good" or "bad" side.
But, come on. This has been pretty cut and dried.
Post by
229054
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188262
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109094
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Post by
Adamsm
Actually, Bronzebeard is working for the Explorer's League with the Kirin Tor in Ulduar, and that faction is more or less a stand alone for all that Blizzard tied it into the Northrend 4 faction thing (Valiance/Silver Covenant/Frostborn/League, sorry not sure what the horde equiv are.)
Post by
109094
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Post by
306612
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Post by
Skreeran
I was speaking with a friend of mine and we have both agreed that Varian cannot
possibly
be right.
Because if Varian is right then Thrall needs to die.
This is one of Varian's goals.
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
If Varian is right, Thrall needs to die.
And so, Varian is wrong.
1. There was never anything that the New Horde has ever done to merit the death of such a leader as Thrall. Thrall is a good person who want peace, and he is slowly leading the Horde in that direction.
2. He is the absolute leader of the Horde. If Varian had killed him, the Horde would likely have withdrawn all its forces from Northrend, let the Alliance hand;e the Lich King by themselves, and the next day marched on Stormwind to slay their Warchief's killer. What does that accomplish?
Post by
109094
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Post by
Skreeran
That is fundementally wrong. Just because Varian is right, does not mean a death sentance for Thrall. It simply means Varians actions were justified and that by extension that he is justified in
wanting
to kill Thrall. It in no way
means
Thrall must die.
If Varian is justifed in wanting Thrall dead, that means that Thrall deserves to die.
Varian is either right and Thrall deserves to die, or he is wrong and Thrall does not deserve to die.
Unless Varian wants to kill him even though he knows that he does not deserve it.
One of Varian's goals is killing Thrall. And by saying he's right you are saying he is right to kill Thrall.
Post by
HoleofArt
No matter how you look at it, Varian is in the wrong. If Varian had his way, Thrall, would be dead.
What would that cause? Massive blood-shed.
Varian is a stubborn fool, you can't deny that. If the Queen of Dragons and the Naaru trust the Horde, that's MORE than enough reason to go, "Hey, they were bad, but, obviously they aren't if beings wiser than me sees the good in them." Aren't humans always following the 'light'? Seems to me that Varian is only acting out of vengence.
And there's no way you can say, "well he's been enslaved by orcs, so he can hate them." What about Alexstraza? Her slavery was much worse, and yet she's "
proud
" of the New Horde.
And the orcs? They were enslaved for much longer than Varian.
Also, tieing in a betrayal from the RAS to the Horde as a whole is just like the Horde tieing in the Scarlet Crusade/Onslaught or the Defias Brotherhood to the Alliance.
The Horde doesn't walk around, insulting the Alliance for things the Scarlets or the Defias do, now do they?
No. So the RAS is a totally null arguement.
Also.. Thrall leveled an entire castle, when he was still a young shaman... imagine what all of the Horde's Shamans could do to Stormwind if Varian killed Thrall like he so desperately wants too.
A good leader would put the needs of the many, over the needs of one.
Which he is NOT doing.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Thats not what it means at all. Your looking at this thing from completly the wrong angle.
You (and I as well) are an outside observer with the benefit of both time to consider, as well as all the information from all the sources involved. We, as outside observers, are the only ones capable of making a fully informed decison. What you need to do though is picture yourself in Varians shoes, with the information that Varian has, with the experiance that Varian has had, to be able to see where he is coming from.
Given the information that Varian has, given what varian has seen, given what varian has experiance, then Varian is right in what he is doing. But you have to understand that Varian is operating without all the facts, just as Thrall is, just as any other npc in the game is.Then he is properly motivated, but wrong.
1. Having a good reason does not make something right. Of course Varian is right from Varian's point of view. No one (or almost no one) does something they think is wrong. He thinks he's doing the right thing. But we're talking about actions and consequences of those actions. Varian is wrong in that his actions will cause nothing but problems for the Alliance.
2. If he doesn't have all the facts, he should get all the facts. He's a king with nearly unlimited resources at his disposal. Surely he has spies within the Horde that understand who Thrall is and what Thrall has done. And even if he doesn't, he has lots of people who already know much about the Horde. Tirion and Jaina for example. He's not just not acting based on their advice, but he's completely ignoring it.
Yes because a Dragon Aspect couldn't possibly have alternative motives, its not like the Dragon aspects have what you would call a perfect track record now is it?
And how much do you really know about the Naaru's motives. Beings of pure light sure, but they have been decptive in the past as well to accomplish there goals.1. Alexstrasza is one of the great powers in the world and one of the wisest beings in existance. She has outlived the oldest Night Elves by more than fifty thousand years and was gifted her position and powers by one of the creators of the world. She's way wiser than Varian, and her actions define more than just the fate of the Alliance, but the fate of the World as a whole. Of course he should listen to her.
2. If it weren't for the Naaru, Kil'jaeden would be snacking on Azeroth. Besides, Varian ignoring their say is an insult to the entire Draenei race.
Post by
109094
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Post by
Skreeran
So are/were Deathwing & Malygos.
Ysera and the Bronze-dragon-whos-name-escapes-me-right-now may also not be far behind in the crazies. 4/5 Dragon aspects gone 'Rogue' (to varying degrees), how long tillt he 5th does?
Also, I dont recall there being any 'meeting of heads' involving Varian, Tirion and Adal. How do we know that both Tirion & Adal are not simply using the Horde as a means to an end? That they know the hordes destructive potential and are trying to harness/direct it at there own enemies. How do we know they are not doing the same to the alliance for that matter.Firstly, Alexstrasza is in fact keeping the Alliance from being destroyed in Northrend. Dalaran would not have survived without the Red flight, the Alliance would have been wiped out by the Blue flight, etc. Any reasonable being would trust the Life-binder, she's just the wisest being on the whole planet, you can't argue with her. Tirion does in fact know that the Horde is good and honourable, and Varian cannot respect him? I actually have a fantastic counterpoint to your argument:
Look at
this quest
:
<Varian stares off into the distance.>
Indeed old friend... Blood and honor.
<Varian affixes his gaze upon you.>
Were it not for this letter from Tirion, you would be a stain upon my floor. Only an endorsement from one of the greatest paladins to ever live could have ensured your survival.
We... We will work together against the Scourge. Against the Lich King!
GLORY TO THE ALLIANCE!He trusted Tirion enough to believe that these members of the SCOURGE had changed, but not the Horde?
Varian has listened to advice from others. He has, on several occasions, tried to meet with Thrall to discuss peace.
Two
times an orc tries to kill him. Sure we know that Orc wasn't working for the horde, but does Varian?Fix'd and I can understand that. Yes, he's had a hard time meeting with the Horde in the past. Why can't he send ambassadors? Heck, he could send Jaina! He's Thrall's
booty call
close personal friend, and she really could help him work with the Horde without having to put his own life in danger.
So he only declares war after the wraithgate, after listening the thralls excuse and after seeing the forsaken weapon in development being openly conducted in a horde city and after seeing thrall protect the forsaken who helped develop it.The weapon is not evil in itself. The only reason he had to object to it were:
1. It was used on his people (and the Horde too).
2. The captive humans
And honestly, but for gameplay reasons, I don't think the humans would have been out in the open like that, there's lot of doors in the Apothecary Quarter, and they needn't not be open all the time. So, while Sylvanas probably knew about it, Thrall is certainly not to blame.
On one had he has trustworthy people saying they believe the Horde to be good, to be honourable and work with them for peace.
On the other had sees, with his own eyes, the cold hard truth that the forsaken were developing a weapon to kill everything (maybe even a new scourge plauge?) and them being shelterd by the horde.He still should understand that perhaps these people are on to something. His black and white view of an evil Horde and a good Alliance is simply not realistic. While he may have encountered lots of villainous Horde, he should also respect the beliefs of those who have seen things he hasn't. Tirion would be dead but for an orc. Jaina would be dead if it were not for the Horde. Rhonin would be dead if it were not for an Orc. (Not even counting Alex and the Naaru) He should at least listen to what these powerful and influential people have to say, rather than dismissing it, saying "all of these people are wrong and I'm the only right one because I've had my own share of experiences with the Horde."
That seems like a fairly good reason to go to war to me.Again, a war is just not helpful to anyone right now. It either ends with the Alliance having to devote a large share of its forces to defeat the Horde, or vice versa, and that does nothing to meet the goal of killing the Lich King. To quote Tirion:
Alas, we fight this battle divided. The Horde and Alliance are in the throes of war and will lend us no support. We must remain unyielding in our cause! For what choice have we to do otherwise?
And again, Varian thinks Thrall needs to die, so he is wrong. I am sticking by that point.
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