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A Plea for Understanding of the Horde
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Post by
Rankkor
actually, thechamp45 I Do use gnomer as an example of alliance lack of committment to it's non-human races because ever since WOTLK and phasing it is very posible to take back gnomeregan.
I'll give you an example.
a lvl 80 toon has no business in gnomer, none at all, those items are too low for ya, and you wont run a friend or alt to that place, since plp usually skip that instance cuz is annoying or whatever.
so at lvl 80 blizz could implement a quest in wich you take back gnomer for good, take out the troggs, and kill mecha-whatever-his-name-is.
after that, the instance is "phased" and no longer is a dungeon, and to maintain balance, it won't be a capital either, meaning it wont have any banks, or AH, or trainers, or flight routes, it would be an alliance town/village, but not a capital (meaning no portal in dala or shatth and no portal from mages exept maybe gnomes)
this would be done only for progression sake, and since this is a trivial instance that nobody would miss (it's loot is not particulary cool, neither for twinks, or alts, or newbies)
gnomer is pretty damn far in the first place, even if it was avaliable as a capital, I doubt any alliance players would use it, most would stick to ironforge or stormwind like always.
but even if such a thing was posible, is undeniably that in the alliance, humans look out for human interests, plain and simple.
each is on their own, each take care of their problems on their own.
from a lore point of view is very unlikely that a human would risk a platoon of soldiers to take back a dwarven village, or a gnome outpost.
but from a lore point of view, orcs are bound by honor and fellowship to risk their lives and give them if needed to help a tauren village or a troll one.
as for the forsaken................ well I may be horde, but to me the horde is really orcs tauren trolls, and +.
what I mean by that is that I don't really consider forsaken and blood-elves a real part of the horde, they joined out of nessesity not out of friendship.
loyal they may be, but not really friends, since elves for example consider orcs to be....... uncivilized brutes with foul smells xD
even so, I guess they where added for a balance reason.
forsaken ARE evil, and yet I think that the horde will influence the forsaken to redeem them and make them "good" as they were in life.
after all the blood elves passed that redemtion in the sunwell plateu.
so forsaken CAN be redeemed as well.
I remember that back when wow was in beta, one of the "excuses" made for forsaken to join the horde was that they told trhall and cairne that only the shamanistic powers of the world could "cure" their undeath and corruption.
too bad that plot arc hasn't been touched again :(
Post by
Rankkor
next, is the justification again.
you claim that thrall has no justification to hate the humans cause "he deserves his hard past"?
let me remind you that the first and second great war where (as the topic opener said) well over 30 years ago.
most orcs on that war are already dead.
the vast majority of the current horde is the children of those orcs, and while their forefathers did some horrible things, the new generation is not to blame.
Fact: thrall did NOTHING to deserve being a slave, his parents didn't even participated in the war cuse durotan was a frikking HERO, as holy and honorable as uther himself.
fact: the fact that someone does something evil does NOT means his progeny should suffer for it.
the best example is this: the nazi where extremely cruel, they butchered millions of plp, and made the biggest longest bloodiest war this world has ever seen.
the nazi generals where of course punished after the war ended, but their children, grandchildren, and all the generations that came after them, deserve to be victims of prejudice? genocide? slavery? OF COURSE NOT.
fact: the orcs paid for their sins, and paid it dearly, they lost A LOT of their plp, they lost their freedom for a long time, they lost their home, they lost everything anyone can loose from dignity, to life itself.
so, if the alliance is so vindictive to keep rubbing in our faces the sins of a generation of orcs that has been dead for well over 30 years, and refuse to move on ( as the orcs have) then I ask you, who are really the good the bad and the ugly?
as for the fel-horde, they are victims too, need i remind you that the fel-horde (the red mutant orcs in outland) are brown maghar orcs that are KIDNAPPED and mutated in the blood furnace via corrupted blood infusion of the pitlord magtheridon?.
they are fel and evil because THEY ARE FORCED to be evil, not because they want to.
I quote what you said here
"The orcs, undoubtedly deserved such treatment, because, obviously they were in the wrong. thrall knows that. so if thrall hated the humans for that reason, that would be ridiculous!
"
the orcs do NOT deserve such treatment for the 2 reasons I already mentioned.
A: most of the culprits are dead
B: they already paid for their sins with everything a living thing can pay for.
also as for the excuse that varian "has never met a good orc", that is because he REFUSES to do so.
already a lot of plp he acutally respects have vouched for the horde, and he REFUSES TO LISTEN TO REASON, wich is sometihg a leader should do, listen to reason.
jaina, tirion, ronin, even bolvar, all of them have vouched for the orcs's honor over and over and over again yet varian repeats the same mantra on his head
"the orcs 30 years ago where evil, so by logic they must be evil today too, all these plp are wrong, everyone is wrong but me"
you know who else thinks that way? jaina¡s father, and look what he did? almost full genocide.
personally jaina and malfurion should lead the alliance cause they listen to reason.
varian is just a stuck up, broken brat, that refuses to belive in change, refuses to belive in redemptions even when the horde HAS made MULTIPLE attempts to mend relations (examples, the an'quiraj effort, the hellfire combined efforts, the attempt of rescue of moira, and many more)
but of course all of that means crap to varian, why? because he lost plp dear to him because of the orcs, and so he vents his anger at them, because he needs a scape goat.
news flash for ya dude, the orcs have lost plp too, plp who didn't deserved what happened to them, and they don't hold it against the humans (thrall lost his parents, and his best friend, to the humans, neither deserved death, but thrall does not uses the humans to vent his anger, because he knows better than doing so will jeopardize his plp, varian of couse cares little for his plp, so long as he getrs to kill orcs, he's happy)
and again, my plea is for the ORCS, I'm not gonna justify the actions of the forsaken, whom I see as the "black sheep" of this brotherhood I call the horde. so don't jump again at the forsaken, my post is against the poor leadership of variran, a king that has made the biggest mistake a leader can make: let prejudice clouds his judgement.
Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
For the most part I understand what you're saying. Just two things...
Firstly, I agree that Varian is not necessarily a hothead. He's tried to make peace with the Horde, and for the most part, outside forces always manage to screw it up. Varian is unwise and uninformed. Unwise because he thinks it is a wise course of action to start a third war in the middle of a war with an even more powerful enemy, and that he doesn't believe those who are wiser than him and do trust the Horde. Alexstraza, Bolvar, Tirion, etc. He's uninformed in that he does not know Thrall's intentions, does not know that Garona was mind controlled, does not know the the Horde did not support slavery, etc.
The other thing...
Warsong gulch (desecrating forests just to do it.)
Slavery (totally uncalled for)
wrathgate (The horde suffered too, but they suffered because they trusted foul beings, something varian does not want to do, this thus vindicates his lack of trust in these creatures, though thrall personally (and his orcs) are not to blame)
the broken front (looks like the horde have old hatreds too)
Dalaran summit (COME ON SERIOUSLY)
-It's for the lumber and continuing a fight. They aren't desecrating the forest beyond their logging operation.
-Not supported by the Horde
-The Wrathgate was a tragedy. Both sides suffered, both sides took care of it. It's like blaming a country because a terrorist cell emerged within it. It was a tragedy, but the country itself is not at fault.
-Broken Front was uncalled for, but the Horde was at war at that point. At best it was dishonourable and tactically unsound.
-Dalaran summit conflict was instigated by Garrosh, but Varian encouraged the fight.
Post by
Rankkor
well, u did made a good argument in defence of varian, but here is the main point I want to quote
"
Judging what varian has been through
, his distrust of orcs is completely rational"
there it is, there it is the whole shebang.
he sees the orcs from HIS POINT OF VIEW.
true, some evil shadowy unknow force wants the alliance and horde to kill each other, and that force, choose varian to be it's martyr, by presenting him the worst of the worst that the horde has to offer.
he hates the orcs cause he does not knows any better. but............
he refuses to see what other plp have seen.
I mean, if I was a leader, and the good all mighty, all knowing, super antient powerfull queen of life alextraza said that there is honor on the orcs, THE LEAST I could do is look it up, investigate, see who is the real culprit.
the twilight hammer kidnapped varian, but he does not knows, .
the old gods/shadow council brainwashed garona but he does not knows.
the forsaken were betrayed from within, but he does not knows.
it seems to me that this is a very uninformed leader.
war is not a picnik, before declaring a war that WILL cost many lives and resources, the least you own to your plp is to do your damn research, and believe me, he can have MANY sources that can confirm that the horde is inocent of many of the stuff he accuses them, but he refuses to listen. he won't listen to tirion (even when he respects him enough to allow death knights in the alliance) he wont listen to the queen of life, who is the most wise being on the planet, he wont listen to jaina proudmoore, or ronin.
have you read the war of the antients? if you did, I'll quote one of my favorite phrases of that book.
Brox saurfang was incarcerated, tyrante was talking to him, tyrante was making excuses for Illidan's rash treatment towards brox, and she says "he misunderstood what you where trying to do"
brox's answer was as cool as it was short he said "that one misunderstands too much, and underestimates even more".
Varian ignores too much, and underestimates even more.
the excuse that all the orcs HE had known had tried to kill him, or wrong him, works for a soldier, or a civilian, but NOT for a king.
because again and again and again PERSONAL REASONS are NEVER justification for a war.
never.
Imagine that a russian Soldier killed the son of the president of the united states, would that give the president the right to declare war to russia? sure he suffered a tragedy at the hands of a russian, but he is directly responsible for not only his life, but the lives of many others.
now, if a russian soldier killed the son of a mercenary, that mercenary could do a retaliation strike against a russian base, why? because he's responsible only for HIS actions, but a leader, is not just responsible for his crap, but also for that of his people, and that is the reason why a PERSONAL reason is never enough to declare open war against anyone.
I bet you anything that if malfurion was in charge, he would listen, even if all the evil dark forces on azeroth tried to put him against the horde, he would listen to the opinions of others beside himself.
I mean come on! a vouch from the red dragon queen and the greatest paladin ever are not a small feat. some good must be in the horde if these 2 are willing to vouch for them.
Post by
Rankkor
and to skreeran, I agree with ya on this part
"Broken Front was uncalled for, but the Horde was at war at that point. At best it was dishonourable and tactically unsound"
I honestly didn't wanted to do that quest, it really is dishonoralbe to finish off wounded soldiers, that quest left a bad taste in my mouth, blizz should know better than to ruin the good reputation and honor of the horde with cowardly quests like that =(
the alliance may be hostile and all that, but what honor can there be to kill a dying soldier? what posible honor can be gained by finishg off a defenseless soldier?
I wish that quest was removed, I swear-
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I honestly didn't wanted to do that quest, it really is dishonoralbe to finish off wounded soldiers, that quest left a bad taste in my mouth, blizz should know better than to ruin the good reputation and honor of the horde with cowardly quests like that =(
Or at least they could have made you burn them/purify them. It'd make more sense because hey look LK can't raise them if they're piles of ash.
Stabbing them in the back? Only way that'd be justifyable is (to my character) if they were all Garithos' direct family.
Amen, the horde already did that in howling fjord as the first quest you do there, inmolate the corpses of your fallen comrades to avoid them becoming part of the lich king's army.
since after the wrathgate the horde is in direct war with the alliance (the fourth war has pretty much started) I doubt they would care about inmolating the corpses of alliance soldiers.
to me, the best way to fix that quest would be to make it like the howling fjord one, help the horde by inmolating the corpses of the horde soldiers, to prevent them of meeting the same fate as all the skeletons at the first gate in icecrown (since, many many of those skeletons wear alliance armor in the first place)
and xD as for your comentary about garithos, good one dude xD.
but I doubt that piece of crap has any family, heck even the alliance hated him (I laughed hard when one of the dwarven rifleman said after being insulted by garithos "they don't pay us enough to put up with this crap)
it would be ironic, if he had a daugther and she ended up married to an orc ^_^
Post by
Skreeran
it would be ironic, if he had a daugther and she ended up married to an orc ^_^
That would win epicly.
Spitting on Garithos' grave ftw.
Post by
Sagramor
I'm not really sure what the current topic is, but, referring to the OP, I think Garona resumed precisely why the Alliance shouldn't judge the Horde in this sentence:
"
In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power.
" ~ Garona Halforcen, The Emissary
Post by
344679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Firstly, Ner'zhul didn't really have a choice either. He was once a good guy like Arthas, but was corrupted by the power just as Arthas was.
The Horde does a lot to fight for good as well. Just look at when Archimonde came. Lordaeron did not heed the Prophet's warnings, wouldn't quarentine, but the Horde (specificalyl Thrall) did, and they helped defeat Archimonde.
Trusting them is different from not declaring war on them. Varian didn't just not trust them, he told Thrall that he was going to wipe his people out. The Alliance has crazy fringe elements too, the Scarlet Crusade, the Crazy Night Elves (read: Wailing Caverns), the Dwarves that are strip-mining Mulgore and the Barrens, the Cult of the Damned. But even if the Horde doesn't trust the Alliance, he still wants peace.
You say that people who trust the Horde are ill informed? What?
And the problem is that, though his own personal experiences say that the Horde is bad, Tirion, Bolvar, and Alexstraza are wiser than him and he should take their beliefs into account. He's a king. He shouldn't just rely on his own experience, he should be wise enough to learn from others as well.
And yes, he's rational, but he really is making some unwise decisions. He should trust those wiser than him.
And prove to me the the orcs are fighting in WSG for anything more than lumber and honor (running away is dishonorable).
Post by
dhampir1989
The scourge? ner'zhul (an orc) and the burning legion started it; KJ took Ner'zhul, tortured him, twisted him and drove him insane, then made him the Lich King. He was no longer an orc, and only marginally still Nerzhul.
However THE most powerful and valiant fighters against the scourge are other humans especially who are good, uther, morgraine, tirion,The Bulwark, and the Forsaken members of the Argent Dawn might object a little there. And Eitrigg.
It is very clear that Arthas's biggest fear is the holy light; the pre wrath quest where you have to deliver the trinket, is where he sends a special shade to go and try to stop you. tirion was able to stop him on holy ground, and just from random quests i get that impression. the most powerful wielders of the holy light are the humans, and the draenei. dwarves can be just as good but its not as typical.
What has this have to do with the Horde/Alliance debate?
The horde are spiritualistic, shamanic people, in touch with the elements far more than the holy light.
This does not make them "less good".
Like, for example in wc3 when malfurion goes to stop illidan from messing with the world, (he was attacking arthas by messing up azeroth). Now, out of nowhere you get a human paladin on your side who was busy fighting evil. like some humans seriously chase evil to the ends of the earth, literally.
Again, what's your point?
The only being to have assaulted the Burning Legion's homeworld? An orc.
what im arguing is that he is NOT an arrogant hot headed biggot, im arguing that he is a rational guy. Wether to judge that or not, you can only do so from his eyes.By that arguement, Hitler was a rational individual, because he thought he was.
No the orcs in WSG don't fight for lumber they just desecrate it to do it, i dont have a source but someone brought it up here or in the why varian is right post.
Cite or gtfo.
Post by
368692
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
well, first off:
Ner'zhul was just like arthas, he was LIED to by kiljaeden.
Kil'jaeden came to ner'zhul pretending to be the great spirit of the sacred mountain of oshu'gun, and told kil'jaeden, that the draenei were evil, and where plotting to kill the orcs, since ner'zhul was pretty much the equivalent to an orc king, he convinced the other chieftains too, and they started to attack draenei plp who did nothing to deserve being killed, this angered the spirits of draenor who then stopped comunicating with the orc shamans, and then in their hour of need found themselves without power (rule Nº 1 about leaders with power: they NEVER want to loose it)
so they embraced the shadow magic of warlocks, and blah blah blah, point is, Ner'zhul was (heavy empashys on WAS) an honorable orc, and he fell because he was deceived (kil'jaeden aint called "the deciever" just for the sake of it xD)
arthas fell because he was deceived too, he was led to believe that frostmourne was the only salvation for his plp, when in reality, that cursed sword was a conduict by wich the lich king would brainwash his mind.
but enough of that.
I've never doubted the honor of humanity, after all, some of the most holy and honorable heroes in the history of azeroth are humans, but that's on an individual level, on a goverment lvl they are rotten to the core.
sadly humanity is plaged by some of the WORST LEADERS EVER, even when on an individual scope they are good, their leaders are anything but good.
me, I found varian to be somewhat of a hipocrite, since he trusts Tirion enough to allow Death knights in the alliance, (even when they used to serve the scourge who is definitly the greatest known evil in the world) but won't trust his judgement to even consider orcs as honorable.
as skeeram said, if varian wont trust the orcs, that's one thing, but declaring war on them is a completely diferent thing.
if he won't trust the judgement of jaina (whom varian may see as an "orc lover") or rhonin (whom varian may see as a leader who allows horde races to be a part of the kirin tor) why-o-why would varian not trust the red queen?
any true leader with a bit of common sence would at least trust or give weight on her word.
I take back what I said earlier about varian being hot headed, he's not, instead I know believe him to be too stubborn for his own good.
and once more, a leader must take decitions based on his experiences AND those of others who had also experiences with the problem.
in english: he must judge the horde as the sum of HIS own experience+ the experience of the rest of the plp he knows to have dealt with the horde.
declaring war, based on 1 opinion, without consulting the other leaders, and without taking into consideration the opinions of the rest of your partners, is a fine example of poor leadership.
if I was a leader and the lifebinder+the ashbringer offer me their advice, I'll take it(maybe I won't "obey"them, but I'll consider them when I make a logic judgement)
(to be continued)
Post by
Rankkor
have you seen thrall make a single desition without consulting the other leaders? nope, cuz thrall knows that to lead means you must respect the opinions and decitions of your allies, on the launch day of WOTLK, what where the orcs doing in ogrimar? debatiing aobut the campaing in northrent, and there was thrall consulting the other leaders, instead of IMPOSING his will on them (wich is what varian did, he imposed his will to do war, on the rest of the leaders who may or may not be too happy to do war with both the horde and the scourge)
truth is: the horde is NOT what varian proclaims them to be, the horde is a group of individuals, with 1 major thing in common, THEY WANT TO LIVE! ! ! ! !.
what's the ultimate goal of the alliance? to butcher and anhilate every.single.one.of.the.people.of.the.horde.
no negotiations, no mercy, no nothing, they die we live, plain and simple.
what are the intentions of the horde? the orcs have no interest in invading stormwind, or ironforge or (insert ally capital here) they want to live in durotar, in peace, on a place they can call home.
the tauren, they where hunted to the brink of extintion by the centaur, now that they finnaly settled on mulgore, want the same as the orcs, to live, to be at peace to harvest flowers, and talk to trees xD.
the trolls, they are outcasts in troll society, no major troll tribe wants them(by major I mean the gurubashi, the amani, and the drakari) they just like the orcs, want to live, since thy have no land to call their own, they live with the orcs, who are more than happy to lend them food and shelter.
the blood elves?: they mainly want to live too, hence why they where so eager to travel to outland, because kael told them it was their promised land, they even called their journey to outland "the pilgrimage" and where very sad to see that their paradise was a barren wasteland. rite now, their main objective is twofold: A: get revenge against the main reason for their suffering, wich is of course arthas, and B: find a new uncorrupted land to live in, secluded from the rest as they always have lived for the past thousand of years
the forsaken: well these guys are complex, they don't have a "single" objective, since each forsaken wished a diferent thing, for the most, the vast majority of them, want to kill arthas, but what will they do after that? only time will tell, I do know that at the beggining from wow, their main intention was to use the horde as bodyguards, while they secretly developed both a cure for undeath, as well as a new plage that can kill the living, turn them into undead, AND kill undead too.
now that the RAS is dead, and their plage is lost, only time will tell, NOBODY can deny that they ahve as a race changed a lot since their introduction at beta, and will continue to change as they find out what exactly do they want.
for now you can say, that they want to be left in peace, already their living relatives (humans) reject them and they refuse to just dig a grave and lay there to die, their life was taken from them, they sure as hell wont let their "unlives" be taken too just for the sake of it.
(to be continued on the final one)
Post by
Rankkor
now, what is the objective of the alliance?
Dwarves: they want to discover their heritage, so they have moved from mining to archeology, and they wish to discover relics that tie them to the past, no matter what the cost, even if that means invading and desacrating the lands of other plp, just as they have done in mulgore, and in so many diferent places, they just think they own the world and can go wherever the hell they please and dig wherever the hell they want to.
can you imagine someone going where you burried your mother and starts digging and you say "hey hold on, this is my land, and that's my mother's grave you're digging" and the dworf says "sorry lad, but there is an antient relic of thousand years burried miles beneath this land, and even when uyour plp already built on top of them we are gonna take it, simply because we want to know more us, we care about OUR history and heritage and care little or none at all about yours"
Gnomes: for the most, these plp are inventors, they just want to invent new gadgets, and become famous for making new and usefull stuff, I see nothing bad about that, I am surprised at how little they wish as a race, they settle just to live so that they can invent.
Draenei: another simple objective, they are exiles, they where kicked out of their Starcraft-like world, and now wait patiently to kill the burning legion, and after that's done, I guess they just want the same as the orcs, to live in peace.
Night Elves: now this ones are gold, they want more than just live, they want to live FOREVER, and care little if they have to offend nature to do so, they lived in luxury for quite a while, and evn when many of them care about nature, and are in touch with the world, they also wish to live forever and ever, even when the natural cicle of life is to exist and then die, so that in death you return to the land what you've taken from it (our decomposed burried bodies "feed" the grass and land, GOD I love the lion king XD)
they esentially offend the nature they worship by refusing to be a part of the cicle of life and death.
Humans: and here it is, the shining jewel of the alliance, even when on individual scale, many (not all) humans are good folk, and also want to live, it is the most basic desire of almost all humans to have more.
is known as human greed, the human nations wish to expand, to grow, to be stronger than the others, to have more colonies, to have more money, to have more weapons more power.
due to the low amout of years a human can live, they are too rash, to fast paced, almost bullies, they want to have as much as posible before they die (and those who joined the scourge, wished to never die in the first place)
so who's side is the good and bad and ugly? (ok the horde is the ugly, let's just stick with who's the good and bad)
horde who wish only to live? or alliance who wants MORE than what's already granted to them? (more years in the case of Nelves, more knoledge in the case of dwarves, more money/lands/power in the case of the humans, more fame in the case of the gnomes)
I'm just saying before you point the finger of who'se holier than whom, first chek up the facts.
Post by
368692
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Yep, Trolls are indeed the most beautiful race. Orcs a close second.
Post by
368692
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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