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Why PvP sucks in Wrath, and what can be done to fix it.
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Post by
Wanderingfox
Now before anyone goes all crazy and starts flaming everything, hear me out.
First of all, one of the major culprits is DKs. They were thrown into a PvP system that was not balanced around them. Hell, look at everything they can do:
Plate: They wear the highest armor in the game (also the armor with the most stamina allocated to it).
Pet: They're a pet class. Their pet has a stun and a charge, and can be used to heal the DK for 40% of his life.
Magic Damage: Most of a Death Knight's damage (save for auto-attack) is magic damage, so it completely bypasses armor.
DoTs: Death Knights also have 2-3 diseases on their targets that are also magic damage.
Magic Shields: They can mitigate large amounts of magic damage.
Chains of Ice: They have a no cooldown spammable root that lasts for 10 seconds. A DK using just two frost runes can keep someone at 100-50% movement speed reduction PERMANTLY (stacking with desecration).
Death Grip: They're the only class that can physically move another player TO THEM. All other movement spells move the player away from you, or move you to the player. Death grip is the only one that cannot be controlled by the target (knock backs can be at least aimed by the target by using proper placement).
Defensive (tanking) cooldowns: Icebound Fortitude is stun immunity and 20% damage reduction for 12 seconds on a one minute cooldown. They also have at least one other defensive cooldown depending on spec.
Wow look at that list... They've got the damage and fight control of a rogue, the defensive abilities of a warrior, the magic damage and dots of a warlock, and the self heals of a paladin... How is this even remotely balanced? Where is their weakness?
Sure, they're a melee class so you could kite them... except for that 30 yard range 35 second cooldown pull and their absolutely massive amount of slows. You can't melee them down since they've got plate armor, a ton of health, and several defensive cooldowns. You can't magic damage them down since they've got anti-magic shell, a presence that reduces all damage done to them by 5%, and two separate interrupts. The only way I see to kill a Death Knight is to out number him, front load more mitigation than the DK, or catch him with his cooldowns down.
I challenge ANY Death Knight to show me where your weakness is. EVERY other class has something that they're extremely weak against (yes, even rogues and ret paladins). To me it feels like Blizzard just kept adding abilities to this class every time they found something that made DKs weak...
Next on the list is Ret Paladins... No class should be able to pump out 20,000 damage (at least 50% of that being holy and thus unmitigated) in the span of 4 seconds. Retadins have far too much burst for their defensive ability. A plate wearing class that can heal and hurl around immunity shields should not be able to turn around and slap someone silly.
Last on the list is rogues. Rogues have too much front loaded damage. I play a rogue myself, and I feel that we do too much damage at the start of fights. It's the same kind of thing as retadins. We should not be able to rip someone down in 6 seconds. However, at least with rogues we're squishy enough afterwards that we can be killed. I still think the front loaded damage needs to be brought down, but the survivability of the class should be adjusted to compromise.
Now before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, here's what I think should be changed:
General:
The effect of resilience should be increased by 25%-50%. There is far too much damage being thrown around, and frankly the game is not fun when you're dead 4 seconds after rezing.
Death Knights:
Chains of Ice should have a DR on it. Multiple DKs spamming this ability should not be able to keep someone rooted in place. Every other root in the game has a cooldown, or DR on it and DKs should not be an exception
Death grip should apply a 30 second debuff on the target that prevents them from being death griped again, and should properly be treated as a spell by all talents (including a rogue's cloak of shadows). Being pulled 30 yards through the air is extremely disorientating and no other class has the ability to move people that far like that. This is a very powerful tool, and should be balanced as such.
Frost Strike damage should be reduced. Frost is the best defensive tree DKs have, it should not put out the same DPS as the other trees.
Icebound Foritude, Lichborne, and Unbreakable Armor should be on a shared 15 second cooldown (in addition to their own cooldowns). DKs should not be able to become immune to stuns, fear, charm, and sleep while also getting at least 40% damage reduction on top of it. I have no issues with them rolling them after each other, but popping all three and becoming a god for 15 seconds is a tad bit overkill.
Paladins:
Seal of blood/command damage should be reduced (if the resilience change isn't enough)
Divine Storm damage should be reduced (again if the resilience change isn't enough)
The only issue with paladins is the huge amount of front loaded damage they do. I'm not familiar enough with the inner workings of the class to be able to suggest a valid change that wouldn't gimp them in PvE, but the root of the issue is that they're STILL too bursty.
Rogues:
Overkill should be reworked into a defensive ability of some kind. (Something like a mini pain suppression that can be used while CC'd or something).
Note: This is where all of a rogue's front loaded damage is coming from. 130 energy + 45 energy mutilates and 25 energy eviscerates for the first six seconds of a fight is a tad bit overpowered considering how rogues typically open with a stun chain.)
Improved Kidney Shot should be reduced to 2% per rank (maxing out at 6% rather than 9%) (if the resilience and overkill changes aren't enough)
Cloak of shadows should be a 100% magic immunity for 5 seconds in addition to a removal. 90% doesn't make any sense, no other class has an 'almost immunity' like that.
Dismantle should be removed from the Preparation glyph, and it's cooldown increased to 1 minute 30 seconds.
Tricks of the trade should be reduced to 10% damage increase, but it's duration should be extended (net DPS increase being roughly the same, but the damage should be more healable).
I honestly think that a lot of the issues in PvP right now stem from the fact that even having 900+ resilience (roughly 10% crit chance reduction and 20% crit damage / DoT reduction) isn't enough to even add 2 seconds onto your lifespan. The average time any battle lasts is far too short. Fights should be lasting between 20 seconds and a minute on average, not 4-15 seconds like they do currently.
Am I the only one feeling this? Is everyone else happy with the Unreal Tournament style of "res, kill 1-2 people, get obliterated, res again, repeat" type of game play?
*Flame suit on*
Post by
230180
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Dralas
I'm gonna be honest, I stopped reading after the first paragraph.
I play a warrior, arms, fury, and (which I am) prot especially can beat down a death knight if they know their class. Now, I know you thinking this is a "L2P" comment, and it is. Death knights DO have weaknesses. Its called timing. I time my stuns, silences, disarms, you name it, I time it.
Death Knights are not easy to beat, but then again, good chance you'll be fighting a 'Death Tard' and get a free kill. GL!
Edit: words
Post by
Katsudon
I'm gonna be honest, I stopped reading after the first paragraph.
I play a warrior, arms, fury, and (which I am) prot especially can beat down a death knight if they know their class. Now, I know you thinking this is a "L2P" comment, and it is. Death knights DO have weaknesses. Its called timing. I time my stuns, silences, disarms, you name it, I time it.
Death Knights are not easy to beat, but then again, good chance you'll be fighting a 'Death Tard' and get a free kill. GL!
Edit: words
Go play arena with that prot warrior and you will get facerolled upon by almost every single comp.
Post by
Wanderingfox
I'm gonna be honest, I stopped reading after the first paragraph.
I play a warrior, arms, fury, and (which I am) prot especially can beat down a death knight
if they know their class
. Now, I know you thinking this is a "L2P" comment, and it is. Death knights DO have weaknesses.
Its called timing
. I time my stuns, silences, disarms, you name it, I time it.
Death Knights are not easy to beat
, but then again, good chance you'll be fighting a
'Death Tard'
and get a free kill. GL!
Edit: words
You've proved my point perfectly (see bolded). Their only weakness is if they mess up, or if you play your class perfectly. The amount of effort required to beat the DK is extremely high in almost ALL cases, while the effort the DK has to exert in order to kill you is fairly minimal.
I agree to most of your points, except "Dismantle should be removed from the Preparation glyph, and it's cooldown increased to 1 minute 30 seconds." Why? We're having big enough trouble taking down warriors, pallies and Donkey Kongs already, why further hinder our ability to do so? I suppose it might be an unnecessary change, but having played a rogue for years before dismantle even came into existence, I've come to learn how to beat warriors without it. I honestly feel that chaining dismantle back to back on someone feels really cheap, and there's other ways to beat people. Perhaps the cooldown increase isn't needed, but you certainly don't need 2 dismantles in order to defeat a warrior if you fight them properly.
Post by
339716
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
s20mike
Now before anyone goes all crazy and starts flaming everything, hear me out....
....
Am I the only one feeling this? Is everyone else happy with the Unreal Tournament style of "res, kill 1-2 people, get obliterated, res again, repeat" type of game play?
*Flame suit on*
QFT. Give this guy a job at Blizz. Oh, and add in something about Shammies - Chain Lightning critting for 3k - 7k across half a dozen people? Gimme a break.
Post by
355609
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
230204
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Booterang
Now before anyone goes all crazy and starts flaming everything, hear me out....
....
Am I the only one feeling this? Is everyone else happy with the Unreal Tournament style of "res, kill 1-2 people, get obliterated, res again, repeat" type of game play?
*Flame suit on*
QFT. Give this guy a job at Blizz. Oh, and add in something about Shammies - Chain Lightning critting for 3k - 7k across half a dozen people? Gimme a break.
Chainlightning hits for about 5k at most on the FIRST target. It does 30% less each bounce and bounces
3
times. Sounds like you need to look up your class skills. Blizzard already was going to 'improve' chainlightning, they ended up leaving it alone. Elemental shamans don't hit any harder then many other casters and lack the survivability and CC of other casting classes such as a mage.
To the first post, I agree with what you are saying for the most part. Deathknights are overpowered because they are simply a better thought out class then the other 7. The other seven classes have their designed based on a template which was created four years ago. I think everyone remembers how unbalanced original vanilla WoW was, with badly designed hybrid classes and overpowered specs.
Basically, shoving in a new class that has been designed with all of WoW's previous mistakes removed doesn't really work out unless the other 7 get an overhaul to deal with it.
Post by
160947
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Post by
195754
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
W1lle
Yeah I agree about nerfing DKs because they have everything plate armor, games best spammable cc, magic damage, death grip, frost presence, stun immunity. But I disagree about paladins because burst and bubble is almost everything they have.
Post by
Wanderingfox
This makes sense, but the paly thing about nerfing seal damage is wrong
Judgements got nerfed and seal damage got buffed for less burst, but for the same damage in pve situations. If anything, judgements need more nerfs w/ more seal buffs
I was just going with what the big crits were on my screen whenever I get stomped by ret paladins while hojo'd... and they're almost always divine storm, and seal of blood/command procs.
Post by
Wanderingfox
Also, changing Improved Kidney Shot won't be helpful, because most PvP Rogues serious about Arena don't take that talent anyways.
A lot of serious rogues don't properly use the stun either. 9% extra damage is absolutely crippling when used by a double DPS team properly. Ever seen a druid in bear form die in the span of a single shatter combo? I have. Tricks + Imp Kidney shot = 26% extra damage to your target. That's like an avenging wrath for your arena partner. It's a seriously large amount of damage, and to this day I've still yet to figure out why the talent is passed up in favor of things like focused attacks.
Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Wanderingfox
FA>imp. KS because it allows for the insertion of a CB Evis at the end of the first KS. Also, a 2-4 energy cost reduction to nearly every single Mutilate is a very significant reduction.
I had my Rogue respec from imp. KS to FA, and I have never looked back. His damage output increased by too much.
See now I went the exact other way... With 130 energy and 55 energy mutilates from the glyph (45 during the first 6 seconds) I can already throw the evis after the stun, but having imp KS has the added advantage of increasing my partner's damage by 9% as well, so in reality it's an 18% increase in DPS during the duration of the KS, which IMO is a lot more valuable than a mutilate happening one to two tenths of a second earlier.
Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
abulurd
I agree to most of your points, except "Dismantle should be removed from the Preparation glyph, and it's cooldown increased to 1 minute 30 seconds." Why? We're having big enough trouble taking down warriors, pallies and Donkey Kongs already, why further hinder our ability to do so?
On another note, the warlock fear nurf was a long time coming, but they can still chain fear you and drain you to death, even if you trinket out of it, they've finished casting a new fearas soon as you get back to them. Possible changes would be a) longer cast time or b) add a cooldown.
</endqq>
hahahahahahahaha your joking right, wait your
not
joking, lock have gotten the nerf bat waaaaaaay to much since wotlk came out, leave us the heck alone
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