This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Why PvP sucks in Wrath, and what can be done to fix it.
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
355293
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
esog
Lol improvements ? just type "whine" nxt time.
Nerfing results in more whine and then more nerfing and so on... get over it.
Post by
367150
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
355293
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Overhaul
I am a protection paladin and never had a problem with any DK fight in world PvP. Usually after they death grip me they fight for a few seconds and realize I am prot and try to run away.
My hunter is another story. It is a matter of hoping they use deathgrip first and then using disengage, then they ice chain and i have to trinket. Hunters get murdered by DKs, because of DKs i stopped playing my hunter and picked up a Paladin and went protection.
Edit: as for an anti-class, the only problem I have on my pally is casters, especially locks and mages. If I can't kill a mage before my hand of freedom is done, then I am dead. Locks this disease, curse, and etc me and run. I could cleanse, but that isn't very smart when you are spamming that and he this puts a new one on you, kiting you, and his pet is eating at you.
Post by
Wanderingfox
Ok challenge accepted,
<snip>
So according to you a DK is a Warrior-hunter-mage-paladin-warlock? Do you see my point yet? No, I guess you probably won't. Allow me to spell it out for you... DKs are an amalgamation (that means combination or mixture) of the best traits from no less than four separate classes.
Also, with all that stuff you wrote, you didn't actually answer the question I posed to DKs. You never told me what weakness a DK actually has. Sure, you mentioned a few classes, but you never actually explained how or why they're a weakness. You just ranted about how DKs are like all the other classes and how your damage isn't over powered.
Now allow me to go into some more depth in regards to your points and why they're completely unfounded.
1. Plate Armor: So you're telling me I should play a magic class to mitigate the plate armor of the DEFACTO ANTI-MAGIC TANK IN THE GAME? Right, that will work just spiffing, thanks!
2. Shackling your pet doesn't prevent you from sacing it. Your pet has more STR than you do, and hits pretty damn hard in addition to all the damage you do. Raise dead is on a THREE MINUTE cooldown, not five.
3. I'm not talking about spells. You'll notice I never said the word spell once in my original post in regards to their damage. Every single attack you have except for blood strike, heart strike, death strike, and obliterate deals MAGIC DAMAGE (ie. shadow or frost damage, not physical damage). That means it bypasses your armor.
4. Frost mages and hunters can't perma CC anyone. Also, managing to catch up to the hunter or mage is essentially the end of the fight since either of those two classes will get destroyed in melee. A DK on the other hand just takes a few hits and goes right back to kiting. Also, I never implied that it was only one DK using the move. The most annoying use of Chains of Ice happens in BGs (especially SotA) where 2-3 DKs will essentially perma root you while you try to run after the demolishers. Lastly, Chains of Ice is the only instant cast root in the game without a DR on it.
5. Only a danger to ranged classes? What game do you PvP in? Because it's certainly not WoW. As a rogue, getting death gripped is the single most detrimental thing that can happen. It pulls us away from our target (usually so far as to prevent us from re-engaging in any sort of timely fashion), it puts us right in front of a rolling juggernaught of plate and magic damage, and we have absolutely no say in the matter (cloak doesn't work on it).
6. Alright... I'll accept that point as valid when you play your DK without spending a single talent point. Just because they're talented does not mean that people don't have them. In order to use shield wall, a warrior must 1. have a shield on, and 2. be in defensive stance... In other words, they're not going to be doing much damage while it's active. Similar thing with Paladins, bubble reduces the damage they do by 50%. In the case of the Paladin shield wall, it can't be used while foreberance is active, triggers foreberance, and can be dispelled.
If the DK ISN'T skilled, I'm in for a hell of a fight. If he's skilled I do not stand a chance, no one does (with the exception of maybe a prot paladin).
As far as a hunter kiting a DK goes... You're expecting me to believe that a hunter can easily(key word here since we're looking for something a DK isn't good at remember?) kite a DK? Umm... That same DK that has more slows than the hunter, and likely has a death grip on a shorter cooldown than a hunter's disengage? That same DK who's ghoul pet hits harder than the hunter's pet, is wearing plate, and does armor-bypassing damage? Ya, I just don't see it happening without some serious effort on the part of the hunter, and some screw ups on the part of the DK.
Now where paladins are concerned... A ret paladin can't heal outside of a bubble. Doing so will get them silenced and killed. A paladin bubble allows for one full heal per fight. Total. That's it. Your ghoul sac BY ITSELF is a 40% heal. You can also death strike for a non-trivial amount of health WHILE DOING DAMAGE. I'm not even going to get into things like bloodworms, blood tap, rune tap, etc.
Lastly, I have an issue with this part of your post in reference to Death Pact5 min cooldown we can do it once per fight tops if it isnt on CD, and whats more, its a talented moveHate to break it to you, but Death Pact is a TRAINER LEARNED move, and is on a TWO minute cooldown. Every DK has it. Thank you for proving you have no idea what you're talking about for me.
Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
335041
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
cloudp
Death Knights are less of a challenge in higher levels of gear. They are still biatches, but it starts evening out. I myself as discpriest never lost to a deathknight on a 1v1 since 3.1 came. But i am above 900 resilience... Not to mention that i have notable ways of disrupting a deathknight's damage and control - Abolish disease, Dispel Magic.
When you have the true decent levels of gear, really, deathknights stop being a challenge to all your skills and cooldowns against their 3 button keybinds. However, i generally agree with this posts. Death knight mechanic introduced something unheard of in every single way. No other class could mitigate magic like a DK can. No other class could pull people to him. No other class could survive as much in melee range while having a pet. No other class had magical damage with this much survivaility (Not even paladins. Pre-lk, ret was an absolute joke.). Anti class is an old concept. But anti role (anti caster), is something completely absurd.
Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
153604
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
321502
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
226100
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aliquiem
Next on the list is Ret Paladins... No class should be able to pump out 20,000 damage (at least 50% of that being holy and thus unmitigated) in the span of 4 seconds. Retadins have far too much burst for their defensive ability. A plate wearing class that can heal and hurl around immunity shields should not be able to turn around and slap someone silly.
Problem is they never seem to find a balanced way to lower our burst that everyone is happy with.
In the patch that my judgment of blood damage was roughly halved to lower burst they compensated it by increasing the seal damage which was doubled this caused a problem in that it increased the burst of crusader strike and divine storm ( since SoB procs off these skills).
Problem is there are very few ways to nerf our damage without crippling it since our damage comes from 4 skills, auto attack and the passive ( gonna consider it passive) damage of SoB onto crusader strike, divine storm and auto attack.
I would like to hear some suggestions that are reasonable
Post by
248538
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aliquiem
I was in wsg this morning on my mage with 20k health and 860 resilience - guess what, a retri pally (- sigh they are all Blond haired blooe elf females) two shot me with his, ahem, 'melee strike'. From 15 feet away.
Later on my lock a blood elf rogue was able to kill me within the duration or just beyond it, of a stun lock.
Some observations about pvp.
1)the game has become 'world of meleecraft' tbh. It regularly is feels like blizzard has declared war on casters.
2)Retris are totally ridiculous. From a philisophical POV - how utterlty *!@#ed up is it that a 'utility' class is the most resiliant healer, and does the most burst dps in a bg?
3)I don't find DKs all that tough. they are the new fad for all the lazy players out there who don't like to be challenged- sure they are annoying and utterly over represented in bg, but they are not unkillable as a frostie or arcane mage.
4)Don't expect any rogue nurfs -not real ones, ever. Not serious, 'honest to god ones'; rogues have had the kid gloves treatment since the beginning of TBC. They have ridiculous burst. I have major issues with dying within a stun lock but I get continually flamed for even suggesting nurfs or that this is even facerollingly OP. I wish the rogue class leader and the lock one in the Blizz development team could trade places.
The ideas of the original poster are fairly sound.
what blizzard needs to do is sort out all those defensive abilities in bg that classes exploit to use offensively......
1)Remove vanish from rogues. How silly is it that you're having a fight and they can vanish 6 inches from your nose? On the face of it i can see every nerd rager rogue on this forum, (and there are plenty) thinking this a bad idea so i would simply suggest that rogue survivability gets a buffed. They do die mighty quick, but then blizzard made some SO hated most people will only to happily turn round and target them. Not much I can do about that tbh. Thats retribution for 4 years of having it your own way.
2)Remove repentance from pvp. After all, its simply a free 10k hit for most retri pallys. 90% of the time they use it to stop you dead and then WALLOP, divine storm.
3)Lengthen the cd on 'Hand of freedom'. ALOT. How am i supposed to keep a pally away from me if NOTHING can slow him down? i can't debuff him on the lock and I'm lucky if i can spell steal him on the mage.
4)Cloak of shadows. Possibly blizzards worse idea ever - well, every rogue i know who comes to gank me uses it offensively to make them utterly immune from my spells for 5 seconds whilst beating on me. Reduce the cd on it, you give them alot more survivability, but make them unable to do ANY damage whislt using it.
Just a few ideas into the mix.
removing repentance from pvp would cripple ret paladins in pvp its a 6 second incapacitate skill which i usually use to sop someone killing me so i can throw a heal off or to stop someone kiting me in their tracks
i have no idea where people are getting these 10k hits from either I'm doing something wrong on my pally (seeing how in my pvp set I'm only critting for at the most 4k) or you fought one while they were in full pve gear with av and berserking on while you were in your pve set mind posting a screenshot of these 10k hits?
Post by
342791
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Astygia
Wall of text warning.
Before anything else, having played the holy hell out of the class since wrath came out...to the OP, yes. DKs are still way overpowered. Not invincible, not godlike, but the class definitely has a much lower penalty for failure than others.
However, the finer point I'd like to make, is one someone else already said but nobody noticed.... it's not that DKs are terribly OP or indestructible...it's that they were planned out and created so damn well, and the other classes did not receive an equal amount of upgrade when wrath went live. I do have faith that these things WILL balance in time though, or become as balanced as they can be.
Anyhoo, the OP also requested ways to beat DKs. Here they are, to any and all that wonder the same thing, class by class.
Mage: Burst and burst HARD. Yes, we have AMS/AMZ, but trust me, you mages hit effing hard. If the little green bubble is up, use that time to pop trinkets and POM/AP and burst hard soon as it goes down. It lasts only 5 seconds you know. If the DK has a ghoul out and the ghoul has a name, don't bother trying to kill it as it will have nearly as many HP as the DK...just keep it CC'd/kited and burst the DK down.
Warlock: You have an easy fight, similar to a warrior but you don't even have to manage charge distance. Just do your thing: fear, dot, apply direct damage as you can, keep howl of terror available for the death grip that you know is coming, and you have DK for dinner. We only have one fear break (Lichborne) and since the last patch it's not seen nearly as much.
Hunter: This fight can either be very easy for you or very hard. Always keep your arsenal on the DK, if you can shoot it you need to be shooting it at the DK. Keep your cool, do not disengage too early. Wait until AFTER you are death gripped...if you blow it early you're probably toast, just like having a warrior in your face. Even if you do use it too soon, your 100% parry/dodge ability (I forgot the name, you know what it is) works on like everything a DK can throw at you except blood boil. Walk backwards, keep your pet on us and try to strafe out a concussive shot until the next disengage is up.
Warrior: If you're Fury, it's gonna be rough. That's not just because you're against a DK either...Fury warriors just do not do well against plate pvp unless they really get a good opening rotation on their target. Prot warriors somehow find time to /laugh and /yawn at me before they wear me down. Arms is somewhere in between. If you're not a stunlock prot, you need to basically pop everything you have the second you need it and for god's sake don't stand still and try to outsmack the DK...run, move, make him move too. Too many suckass dks faceroll warriors because the warrior is too damn stupid to move around some and the dk can just sit there and press buttons until you die.
Shaman: have a hard time against dks. You need your cooldowns against us more than you should have to, imo. Spirit wolves should not be required to take out a class. Cardboard chainsaws that enh shammies are, they can output a lotta damage but DKs can outburst them a little more often than is fair...give shammies some love, blizz. If you're ele, then pretend you're a mage with no blink and be ready to move and redeploy totems A LOT. If you're resto, /laugh while you outheal everything he throws at you. Don't panic if you get silenced, it lasts only a couple seconds. Make the DK move and work, keep yourself up.
Druid: If you're feral, pretend you're a rogue, stun the &*!@ out of the dk and hit him HARD. Stay behind him (you know how to do this if you're good) and bleed him dry, ferals can do this well. Boomkin: /faceroll your spell bar and enjoy the free kill. If a shield comes up, that means he's nervous and it's time for your to to be ready to burst him down as soon as the shield is gone. Resto...same as a shaman, just easier.
Paladin: Stop killing me. Paladins of virtually any spec are the anti-DK, but ret especially just mows DKs so long as you know your class (which I'll admit I do not..pallies have never been a class I was strong with, so beyond common sense issues like stunning and healing or bubbling when needed, I don't know what rotation is optimal for you). But the frequency at which I get destroyed by pallies implies that it cannot be too hard.
Rogue: a good rogue can shut a dk down from start to finish. If you're a rogue and you can't kill a DK you're either severely outgeared, missing a key combo multiplier in your rotation, or you got jumped, in which case it's GG, just like any other strong melee jumping you.
Priest: Enjoy being functionally invincible due to outhealing. Keep your bubble up and stay fluid, keep dots up, keep the DK as sideways as possible. If your gear and class knowledge allows it, priests are the one class that stand there and not even bother moving while they work their magic for the win.
For any class, a key element to beating down a particular class is learning to play it. Learn the DK's abilities. If you're a nuker, don't waste your mana trying to hit them while shields are up..MOVE, position yourself for your burst, pop trinkets. If you're melee, don't freaking stand there and try to autoattack the win. Move! Make the DK move, make him work and sweat and actually have to expend effort to hit you.
Granted all the advice in the world is moot if you get jumped or were just unprepared in some way, and again I agree that the DK class has a much lower penalty for failure, as they have such a large toolset in both skills and talents that other classes sometimes cannot keep up, and this needs to change. But they're still killable, you just have to be on your toes and be observant. It's the little things that often mean a win.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.