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3.2 Patch Notes - in Depth Discussion
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Post by
svl007
Will of the Necropolis
I'd like people who complain about the tanking issues in Patch Notes for 3.2 to read this. If you look at his armory.. It's an exact Blood Dps build except for Blade Barrier - Toughness - Anticipation...
You'll note that he has seen 0 use for it, he tanks Ulduar weekly and has had little issues with this other then threat generation on a few small fights..
So essentially, currently in the hardest raiding content we have Death Knights who can slap on tank gear, put 15 pts into some talents and the rest of tanking talents are useless and go and literally effectively tank bosses...
Do you see why that could be an issue? You don't see Fury or Arms Warriors specc'ing 15 pts into Prot and tanking Ulduar. Nor do you see Holy or Ret pallys doing a 15pt Prot build and tanking Ulduar. Have you seen a 15 pt Resto or Balance druid tank? If you've answered no, there's a reason for it, shouldn't be happening...
So most likely Blizzard is currently trying to correct the issues that are present with Death Knight tanking as such.. This is but one case and it's the simpliest one at that, that I could find for you all.
PS: Cheesechamp I hope you don't mind me using you as an example but you were the best possible example that I could use for this argument.
you are exagerating things. his build is very much build toward tanking. he has every usefull tanking talent for blood apart from will of the necropolis. which says more about will of the necropolis then about dk's being able to tank in dps build.
where else can you put talents? not like there are 50 talents allocated to tanking. it's 5/5(8)/5 + 1point for CD(VB/UA/BS)+ 3-5 extra talents in each build direct soley to tanking. all the other points are usefull for dps aswell. so no way he's running a dps build, he's running a tank spec. fact it looks very simular to dps build is bc quiet frankly there isn't much other ways to spec.
your examples about fury warrior and what else are just rediculous, bc they never were made to tank wereas all dk builds are made to tank. and for that matter UA build for warriors comes pretty close i'd say.
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Post by
svl007
Now for Svl's post.
Other then the core 5-5-5 rule that all tanks follow he has an exact dps build for Blood. Morbidity is even a Blood dps talent that's a core for builds.... So uhm yea, not sure what you're talking about. He has 0 mitigation past the 5/5/5 rule as well...
he has every usefull tanking talent for blood apart from will of the necropolis.
Every one of those talents are dps orientated and viable for tanking... They are not "tanking" talents... Will of the Necropolis is the only tanking talent in late Blood tree... It's the blood version of UA and Bone Shield... 5-5-5 core rule aside, as every tank is required to take this.
Do you usually see Unholy or Frost tanks with Unbreakable Armor or Bone Shield?
This was an example, there's been many other cases where Dk's in dps spec have tanked efficiently in any sort of PvE experience from Heroics to 25man Raids...
way to miss the point. you say he tanks in a dps spec which just isn't true and only puts oil to the fire for ppl asking to nerf us. or you call SoB, rune tap and vampiric blood dps talents aswell? together with will of necropolis this are all the talents that could be classified as only usefull for tanks in the blood tree. he has em all but will of necropolis. which just isn't that good of a talent point, so him not taking it is not him saying hey look at me i'm tanking in a dps spec, but him saying this talent isn't good enough to spent points in.
i could say every blood tank not specced into impBP is tanking in a dps spec. i mean impBP heals you amirite, so it has to be core tanking talent. but i'm sure you'll agree with me that's not the case bc the talent is so weak it isn't worth the points. now replace impBP with will of necropolis and do the same reasoning again.
so this isn't an example of him tanking in a dps spec, come back with someone tanking ulduar in a 51/0/20 and then you can make a point.
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Post by
ogroman
What does this patch do to Unholy AOE DPS? Not necessarily talking about raiding, more for leveling/farming/questing. Seems like just more nerfing, what with now having to spend a blood rune on blood strike to get the 5% boost to damage of desecration and no UB damage.
Which is a total bummer, this was my favourite thing about Unholy DKs before, but its been blasted to ^&*! over the course of there patches.
Pretty lame.
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Post by
svl007
@lynri please make a blood tank build that totally differs from a dps one then mate. i mean i'd be interested to see it. bc quite frankly i can't.
you keep on missing the point. which is there hardly are any tank specific talents in blood. so if you pick blood to tank you will end up with a build looking simular to a dps. bc after you picked the talents needed to survive you go for the ones providing most tps, which generally also are the talents providing the most dps. An exception being SoB, which he picked up, proving once more it's a build made for tanking rather then dpsing.
also if you see vampiric blood as a filler talent to tank build you should really reconsider giving advice about tanking ever again. i'll just assume you missed it, but if you didn't, really start reconsidering. going further on this it's not bc a talent is a filler for a dps spec, that it is a filler for a tank spec. bc a dps happens to spec into a talent bc they have to spent a talent somewhere doesn't make that talent any less of tank talent. bc if we flip that around. 'wtf are you doing as frost dps, my friend who's frost tank is almost specced to same. L2spec nub you have a tank build so don't come waste my time as dps' <see what i did there?
also concerning rune tap. i actually have it in my build now aswell (even improved) after being very sceptical about it. not bc it is the greatest talent, but simply bc my threat is well above that of the dps even with the points in imp rune tap rather then a tps talent (or dps talent bc that's what you like to make from it). now i know that since i took impRT it has saved me at least once. for the simple reason the healers had to move right at the time i had an unlucky strike of no avoided hits. after rune tap i ended up with 1k hp so yes it saved my life and that's what tanking is about: STAYING ALIVE. sure it was a mess up from the healers and it shouldn't have happened, but !@#$ happens and having such skills avaible at the time to prevent a wipe is nice and is what tanking is about. so pls tell me how RT is not a tank talent?
Healing is neither Mitigation or Avoidance
orly? but is it part of staying alive?
now my definition of tanking. keeping aggro while staying alive.
important part:
staying alive
healing is very much part of that in my book. it does nothing against dieing from the initial blow, but it does contribute to not dieing from the second, third, fourth, ... blow.
to put it short mitigation (or EH) help you survive the intial blow. avoidance and healing help you survive succesive blows and they work complementary towards that goal. avoidance by postponing the next hit. healing by making sure you again have a big enough hp pool for when the next hit lands.
now those can come internally: armour, stamina, blade barrier, DS, RT, IBF, ...
or they can come externally: pain supression, healing, insect swarm, health stone,...
but they all work towards that common goal keeping the tank alive.
reducing incoming damage is part of that, but so is recovering hp lost. you seemingly only want to see the first part. which is to bad bc blood is the only tank capable at significantly making use of the 2nd part aswell. basicly you are blind to a whole part of blood tanking mechanics.
which is my only concern about the patch. bc blood has that ability to self heal which contributes to their tanking capabilities, they in return have the least mitigation of all tanks (well same as UH if their bone shield is down). ofc for the healing to kick in you have to survive the initial blow which is where the extra health kicks in. sure blood takes the most dmg, but it makes up by healing that and bc of the bigger health pool they don't have a higher chance of dieing from the initial blow. so blood will get hit double hard. their health will get lower making the chance of surviving the intial blow lower, but also making their healing weaker (since all the heals heal for a % of total health) basicly nerfing them on both fronts. now ofc we'll have to await PTR to see if they took it to far or if it's right.
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