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Why DK's are OP and a balanced fix.
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Post by
wrongwayassassin
He's supposed to be a
Hero Class
....
Post by
288698
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Post by
285681
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158669
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423866
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Post by
PTsICU
A DK can't spend all his frost runes on kiting and still do significant damage from range. Deathcoils will hit hard if you're Unholy, but they cost runic power which you will run out of after a couple of Deathcoils. Then what? You have no other significant long range damage abilities, and no way to renew diseases on your target. Ghoul? Can be killed very quickly without support, as intended. Gargoyle? Will also be killable next patch.
I personally think COI gives enough control that it could use diminishing returns for group play situations (like warlock Deathcoils already have for instance), but people complaining about DKs
killing them from range
with it are just being irrational. Likewise, people who argue that it should be melee-range don't understand that COI's place in the DK repertoire is as one of two gap closers. It isn't meant to serve as an equivalent to Hamstring or Crippling Poison or other melee snares because DKs get speccable (or glyphable, if you're Blood) equivalents to those in each tree. COI is a backup gap closer for when DG fails, just like warriors have Charge, various mobility talents,
and
Intercept, and rogues have Stealth, Vanish, Deadly Throw,
and
Sprint, and retadins have HOJ, Repentance,
and
PoJ. Even if melee as a whole are pretty unbalanced in pvp right now, expecting a melee class to be viable in pvp with one single cooldown gap closer simply isn't rational.
And yes, it does kind of suck that Arms warriors are balanced around MS. But, well, you can't get huge buffs in other areas while still having MS and be remotely balanced. You'd have to get MS nerfed to buff the other stuff. If you haven't learned to accept that fact by now, after all this time MS has been in the game, you probably aren't ever going to be happy playing that particular spec.
don't try to bring logic into a QQ fest......the QQ'ers will just make fun of you and call you a bad DK supporter. Let them continue the QQ.....it makes them feel better about themselves.
Post by
PTsICU
I think an easy way to fix CoI would be to just make it cost 15 runic power in addition to the frost rune.
Too much. Take your 15RP argument, but remove the frost rune, and you have something worthy of discussion imho.
Post by
273605
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285681
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Post by
Lightrain
QQ.
And now a rogue.......tis some funny stuff around here these days.
Surely you have a partner.....or are you tryin to solo 2 people? rofl
If the DK is "spamming" you with COI....he's not doing much else. Auto? rofl.....my gawd......l2p your OP class dude.
He's surviving at 10% health for 30+ seconds by KITING USING COI! Are you seriously that stupid? Oh wait, I already established you aren't worth listening to in your other comment.
^-Disregard-^
A DK can't spend all his frost runes on kiting and still do significant damage from range.
Surivival in PvP is MORE important than doing damage. You get 2 runes every 10 seconds. Surviving 10 seconds so you can do damge is what is OP about it.
I personally think COI gives enough control that it could use diminishing returns for group play situations (like warlock Deathcoils already have for instance), but people complaining about DKs
killing them from range
with it are just being irrational. Likewise, people who argue that it should be melee-range don't understand that COI's place in the DK repertoire is as one of two gap closers. It isn't meant to serve as an equivalent to Hamstring or Crippling Poison or other melee snares because DKs get speccable (or glyphable, if you're Blood) equivalents to those in each tree. COI is a backup gap closer for when DG fails, just like warriors have Charge, various mobility talents,
and
Intercept, and rogues have Stealth, Vanish, Deadly Throw,
and
Sprint, and retadins have HOJ, Repentance,
and
PoJ. Even if melee as a whole are pretty unbalanced in pvp right now, expecting a melee class to be viable in pvp with one single cooldown gap closer simply isn't rational.
TLDNR- =/
Short version- You give them a gap closer that is spammable every 5 seconds. Wait? Did I say that right?.... Uh..... Who's still arguing? Check others' "gap closer" tools and what their cooldowns are, then come back to me.(Or just give up because you probably won't get it.)
That MAKES it an OP gap closer/survival tool. Repentance is on a minute CD, charge/intercept are on 15-20 second cd's. Rogues, well, they can't use their cooldowns anywhere close to as often as CoI, and you obviously don't understand the concept of HOW squishy rogues really are.
And yes, it does kind of suck that Arms warriors are balanced around MS. But, well, you can't get huge buffs in other areas while still having MS and be remotely balanced. You'd have to get MS nerfed to buff the other stuff. If you haven't learned to accept that fact by now, after all this time MS has been in the game, you probably aren't ever going to be happy playing that particular spec.
Warriors do a lot of damge. The problem is how they keep up with people and how good they are at it. No one complained about warriors. IMO, they are pretty squishy in their current state. Hopefully 3.2's resil change will fix that.
Warriors are powerful, and well balanced. They are slightly OP when paired with a resto druid's amount of spammable CC, but nothing compared to DK's.
From what Karkadin said, CoI needs to be on a 1 minute to 30 second cooldown for it to be balanced. Unfortunately, no one realizes this since DK's are the "Paris Hiltons" of WotLK.
I don't give a F*&K whether they are a hero class or not, fact is fact. I don't enjoy 30 minute matches because of their retarded mechanics.
Post by
285681
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Post by
Lightrain
You are still ignoring the issue. CoI is NOT a gap closer. It is too short of a cooldown, and since every DK says, "CoI uses a rune and lowers our output," OBVIOUSLY it's NOT a gap closer according to your logic.
Now, again, SURVIVING burst and wasting every melee classes cooldowns that make them dangerous is WHAT makes it OP.
You can easily spam CoI for 15-20 seconds, survive, and then go back to DPS. Don't be stupid. Accept it. It's OP because of this. Every fight I'm in with a DK lasts longer than 2-5 minutes is BECAUSE of CoI only. Period. Desecration is just icing on top of the very tall cake.
You mentioned rogues using defensive cooldowns. You can't by any means tell me that a rogue isn't going to get squashed by DK in a very short time frame. If the rogue happens to keep control of the fight, the DK will die, but if the DK is that bad, he should reroll. Seriously.
Why?
Rogue has 1 slow, it is a poison. Any Unholy DK should be able to beat a rogue reguardless of any other idiotic reasons a DK has to being dumb enough to lose to a rogue.
Priest/rogue? You have immunity to stun and fear, and ways to control and slow BOTH of the opposing team. They don't have a freedom, they both have no possible way of getting out of desecration without taking the very long 50% speed walk out of it and it ticking again to realize the player isn't on it anymore. You also have CoI to increase the short distance and possible get you out of melee range before they get it dispeled off the rogue.
GG, you just survived for the cost of a 10 second CD....
I said TLDNR because you made a very big paragraph of nonsense. I read it, yes, then I summarized it into 1 sentance for those that didn't want to read the paragraph. Then you made another paragraph about the same size stating exactly what I just told you is false about it.
USING COI IS NOT OFFENSIVE, IT'S DEFENSIVE. IT'S OVERPOWEREDLY DEFENSIVE BECAUSE YOU CAN SPAM IT TWICE IN A ROW, MEANING YOU CAN'T TRINKET IT OR IT GETS RE APPLIED, AT THAT POINT, IF HE IS OUT OF MELEE RANGE, HE IS ALREADY SURVIVING LONGER THAN HE SHOULD. THE FACT THAT IT USES FROST RUNES IS IRRELIVANT BECAUSE OF THE
FACT(HARD, JUICY, IRREFUTABLE FACT)
THAT IT IS ALMOST NEVER USED OFFENSIVELY.
Maybe that will help you see the point of this entire arguement. It's in big pretty bold letters. The point that it uses 1 measly rune has no bearing on it's use because it is used defensively, and dk's survive way, way, WAY longer than they should because of one spell and the ability to spam it.
Post by
cloudp
Light, you are right in many things you said. Against Priest/Rogue, however, a Death Knight shouldn´t be that strong, for a single reason: Abolish Disease. Yes, he can go immune to the controls they posess, however, his damage output will be significantly lower versus any priest. As well as the possibility of dispelling Chains of Ice. I rarely ever have problems (as a priest) facing DKs.
This is about the survival part. Being able to kill the dk will take a lot more effort, not to mention his partner.
About the "gap closer" discussion, Light is right. CoI is too spammable to be a gap closer. Not to mention, the initial snare component is not even Wing Clip, Cripple Poison, Earthbind or Hamstring's 50%... even post-3.2 it will be 95%. A much higher number. The Death Knight's gap closer is Death Grip. (which in its essence is quite powerful, much more than charge, intercept or shadowstep. The reasons have been stated already in many forums, no real need to go on with it again.)
And please, keep it a reasoned argument. This post had some interesting suggestions that were polluted. Let us not leave the main argument, shall we?
Post by
meowliekacat
Its not like we are asking for something ridicolous like "OIMOGMG REMOVE DK"S!"
We are just asking for CoI to be put on a DR.
Post by
285681
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Post by
285681
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Post by
cloudp
DG is more powerful than Charge because it puts the target into a more vulnerable position, not because it closes the gap more effectively than Charge. Without COI there is no way for a DK to stay on target because all classes that need to kite can kite around a single DG if they try. A DK DGs a mage or priest... who Blinks or Psychic Screams... then what?
Point is, no one is asking to remove CoI. They are asking for sense. Meaning, Diminishing Returns. Sorry, but no DRs on such a powerful spell is wierd and no class has it. Death Knights out of melee don't exactly deal the damage a rogue or warrior does out of melee (throw...): they have a pet, and can keep diseases ticking, meaning less pressure, but absurdly more pressure than Throw. I didn't mention the pet stun at all.
Neither i said one is a better gap closer than the other for the simple distance factor: that they both close the gap between you and your target is of course equally done. That one allows you to pick a target, save someone, remove one target from your partner, and the other simply gets you in contact with your target, its undeniable which is stronger.
edit: Finally, if a DK begins fighting a mage by Gripping him, thats a mistake of his right there. If he was trying to pull someone to him, you could silence it to prevent blinking. And if you get feared, you trinket it.
About your first statement, i admit i didn't quite understand it. Could you explain? I didn't get where it invalidated my point. No sarcasm here.
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285681
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Post by
Shei77
It's extremely overpowered for waiting for cooldowns to come back and it's horrifically spammable from a DISTANCE.
I have no issues with their damage output. Even their overpowered silence on top of a very short cooldown interupt.
- Gargoyle needs to be reachable(they are fixing it). A flying pet that does more damage than any other pet in the game during it's untouchable burst and seemingly has no range or LoS limitations.
- CoI needs to be a SLOW, not a snare. Slower than 50% in any way, shape or form is OP for a melee dps, especially when you can cast it every 5 seconds and keep anyone under 50% speed. If they want to keep it the same, the cost needs to be increased to 2 Frost runes. Maybe a slow with it's current cost, glyphed to what it is now with the cost increased to 2 runes.
- Pet stun is retarded, and not on a global cooldown because it's a pet ability. If they want to give it this ability, it needs to be killable. Not an instant cast res with minimal cost and a renewable CD.
- Desecration isn't needed if CoI is changed to a slow. It's retarded to have a slowing AoE effect that can be stacked on top of an AoE damage effect, both of which have MINIMAL to no cost.
- Disease durations are WAY too long. Shorten them. It's not like they aren't being refreshed at 1/4 to 1/2 duration anyways....
Yes, this is QQ. DK's have ruined the fun of BG PVP in 59-80 brackets.
1. wow... there are classes that can attack from DISTANCE? NERF
2. all interrupts of all classes are 8-10 sec cd (dunno rly..) apart from mage that its combined silence + interrupt if speced (nerf?) that its 30sec... DK silence is 2min..nerf?
3. and a peth that can be easily LoSed to get it next to u, nuke it in seconds as a hunter or just shackle it.. plus u loose runic in order to call it (and yes u can LoS it, dunno how but i seen it come next to me quite a few times)
4. in that, i have to agree..cant agree with ur suggestions but yes CoI is op..
5. there are much worse pet abilities than a single stun..
6. u can easily avoid desecration and it aint that minimal cost tbh-.-
7. even if they are 6 seconds they can refresh with glyph and if they nerf it to like 9 seconds each they'll put diseases, hit once, renew diseases etc etc.. and btw, cure them?
Post by
79146
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