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DW Frost DPS - Blowing Up the Competition One Obliterate At A Time
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Post by
Vellas
@Vellas - Ignore pichu. The advantage of Blood Subspec is subversion which lowers your threat and allows you to maintain your dps more often. However speccing deep into Blood subspec outside of subversion is not an intelligent use of points once you get past uld 10 gear. BcB scales beautifully with upgraded hit and haste.
Yeah after some more digging in the ej dw mountain..I mean thread, thats pretty much what I found. My hit and haste arent quite high enough for me to get the full benefits from Necrosis and bcb.
Post by
345177
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
156180
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Zakkhar
Couple of questions.
1. Why do you think that
Nerves of Cold Steel
affects spell hit cap? Are spells made with melee/weapon hits? Do they need you to have 1hander equipped? It clearly states its on for melee hit. The same as
Rogues Precision
clearly states melee and poison attacks. If they wanted it to affect melee and spells they would write
"Increases your chance to hit with one-handed melee weapons
and spells
by X".
Its not misreading. Its misleading.
2. Why do you keep misinforming people by calculating spell hit and melee hit the same way? Why state hit (which obviously means melee hit) in sentences with spells? Use rating instead. Most people cant mouseover or change Melee/Spell tabs anyway.
I'll give an example.
You write that 8% is melee special hit and in same statement as 17% is spell hit cap. This is manipulation and in this context its untrue. 17% spell hit cap equals 446 rating (26.26 per 1%). 446 rating equals 13.6% melee hit (32.79 per 1%). Therefore in this context you only need 13.6% untalented melee hit to cap your spells.
3. Why you dont mention
Glyph of Howling Blast
as a viable Optional glyph for IIT builds? (especially for thrash).
Post by
178943
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Zakkhar
1. People add spell hit from the unholy talent
Virulence
which increases spell hit chance. It's not their mistake, it's your misreading.
I know VIrulence, but as i said in 2. The tables are misleading. Every time a percentage is stated it should have all the reductions included and so the method of its caulculation (similarly as i did in my previous post in this topic). eg he states spell hit cap while never mentioning virulence.
2. Most of the time they just talk about melee hit because that is your main goal. After you get past 8% melee hit chance, then yes, maybe we should talk more about spell hit. But the fact remains that hit rating helps both melee and spell hit, and we focus on the more important one for our class, melee.
And how exactly that contradicts my question? Or agrees with it?
3. Because Howling Blast only gives one disease, and uses a rune (unholy) that we need to apply our second disease. Pretty much all the theory crafting has proved that 2 Diseases > 1 Disease.
Its obvious you will need to PS single target as well. But its about IIT uptime, not diseases uptime. You sure need to use 1 more UH rune, but you got 1 FR saved. It can be used for eg Chains of Ice on add. Also it may almost wipe your rotation out of ITs, which out of your KM eating skills does lowest damage and especially under spell hit cap you may find it eating KM way too often.
Example situation.
There is a boss with adds spawning here and there. Or you just have your main target (skull) and all others are just aoed down. With typical IIT Epidemic rotation you need to refresh diseases every 21s at least. After that you usually Pestilence to spread it to all the adds.
With HB glyph you keep your FF on main target and adds at all times and dont need to use either Pestilence (but you may if you want to, it will boost your aoe damage a bit by Blood Plague dps) nor IT. It hits like a sissy, in comparison to your other skills you gotta agree.
Adds get increased HB damage from FF(Glacier Rot) at all times without needing to manage diseases on them. You gain Blood rune and Frost rune. Blood rune can be used for Boiling Blood (which will probably do less damage than Blood plague during 21s, should adds will live that long). Its a matter of personal prefference and simplified rotation while focusing in main target.
Also Hb glyph keeps your IIT refreshed which may be usefull in fast paced fights with lots of movement/target switching etc. Thrash in general. You'll get far better benefits from not being worried about disease management other than your main target. Nor will you waste lot of dps while applying both diseases to every second target because IIT fallen off.
Sorry bout the minor 'tude, but you caught me on a bad morning.
Np, i am used to this style of discussion.
Post by
Eleazer
@malloman - Bladed armor is the worst talent in the blood tree to spec into outside of Butchery. Necrosis may only be a 4 percent dps increase, but because of DW speed and hits it's a larger dps increase than the flat AP advantage that Bladed armor gives you. Butchery is a waste. Put a 2nd point in epidemic and fill up Necrosis. Subversion vs. BcB is up to you. Glyph IT or Pest over Howling blast. BTW, I love your MH weapon. I stopped raiding for a few weeks here and have fallen behind the DW weapon upgrades. That weapon is just pretty in terms of weapon damage.
@Nakork - Using BS before Oblit to get the buff is fine, it's all about priority rotation. The thought behind the rotation is that if something can make oblit stronger get it out before using obliterate. Therefore your theory is correct if you need to use BS to get the proc before using Oblit than do it.
@Zakkhar - While I understand your problems, I like to encourage people to use their heads of having things spelled out in detail every time. If you can't figure out how to look at your spell hit or that there is a difference between melee hit and spell hit, than you need to find a class that only focuses on one skill. It is not hard to open up and scroll down to spell hit to see where you are at.
1. I am sorry that I assumed that most people are intelligent enough to understand that spell hit and melee hit were two different things because one says spell and the other says hit. If you had trouble discerning the difference, how much trouble do you think most of us would have if I were to use the word "rating" which isn't even found anywhere on our character screen. I do not believe that any time did I infer or reference to Nerves of Cold Steel when talking about Spell hit. In fact, the only reference I made is that anything after attaining the spell hit cap which is around 10 percent of your melee hit cap when talented and raiding with a Boomkin or enhance shaman. In what way was that misleading? I am not sure how much more clear I can be, but I have no desire to spell things out so crystal clear that you don't have to think to do it. I believe in learning to use your brain. God gave it to you to use. Having said this I gave you enough information to think about and look it up yourself.
2. I referenced this above, when I say hit I mean melee hit, and when I mean spell hit, I say spell hit. Not sure how that's confusing. The reason hit means melee hit is because in reality spell hit doesn't mean much to us, melee hit is the most important stat. Therefore for DK's in general hit = melee hit and when referring to spell hit we say spell hit, because now we are referring to something other than melee hit. Don't overthink yourself.
3. I would like to say Glyph of Howling Blast is viable, however it's not. You don't spec and glyph for trash. You spec and glyph for bosses. I was a HB single disease lover. I was a loyal follower of Lynri, and in general don't like the DW change. However, I do enjoy the play style of frost and don't want to play blood or unholy. I have explained HB glyphing on several different threads, and don't feel like going into detail on why it won't work. But I will give you the basics and let you ponder on them.
You don't spec for trash, you spec for bosses. HB Glyph only becomes viable in pulls of 3 plus mobs and if using Cinderglacier, and if the fight lasts less time than 20 seconds. Remember HB glyph is not a dps add, neither is Glyph of disease. However Glyph of disease is still a larger dps benefit than HB Glyph, due to symplified rotation and other reasons that I have already discussed. IT/PS/Pest/BB/HB is more dps than HB Glyphed fighting. The reason is simply BB benefits from the added disease, plus you get the addition of ever tick of the disease, there is a point where HB Glyph just can't keep up. Every report I have read or seen or done has come up to somewhere between 10-20 seconds.
Post by
Zakkhar
2. I referenced this above, when I say hit I mean melee hit, and when I mean spell hit, I say spell hit. Not sure how that's confusing. The reason hit means melee hit is because in reality spell hit doesn't mean much to us, melee hit is the most important stat. Therefore for DK's in general hit = melee hit and when referring to spell hit we say spell hit, because now we are referring to something other than melee hit. Don't overthink yourself.
Its confusing in here:
5% - Melee special hit cap with Nerves of Cold Steel
8% - Melee's Special hit cap.
10% - Alliance Spell hit cap if raiding with Draenei (in group) and Moonkin or Shadowpriest
11% - Horde spell hit cap if raiding with Moonkin or Shadowpriest (Misery or Fairie Fire)
14% - DK spell hit cap if specced into Virulence
17% - unbuffed and untalented Spell hit cap
24% - DW Mellee hit cap with Nerves of Cold Steel
27% - Melee DW white hit cap
This tab looks wierd as some numbers should be lower than they are stated here (some rows may even change order because of it). Rating isnt visible in char tab? Ofc it is, just some people dont know what mouse over is. But if they dont know that they probably dont know how to change tabs from melee to spell hit. Whichever is the case this is misleading.
3. (...)
You don't spec for trash, you spec for bosses. HB Glyph only becomes viable in pulls of 3 plus mobs and if using Cinderglacier, and if the fight lasts less time than 20 seconds. Remember HB glyph is not a dps add, neither is Glyph of disease. However Glyph of disease is still a larger dps benefit than HB Glyph, due to symplified rotation and other reasons that I have already discussed. IT/PS/Pest/BB/HB is more dps than HB Glyphed fighting. The reason is simply BB benefits from the added disease, plus you get the addition of ever tick of the disease, there is a point where HB Glyph just can't keep up. Every report I have read or seen or done has come up to somewhere between 10-20 seconds.
At least put this explanation into the main post, some DKs dps only in heroics and for them glyphing for thrash would be kinda good.
Post by
448019
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Eleazer
I've been playing as a DW DK for some time now and I have to say some of these posts aren't backed up with emipirical data that actually shows how worthless blood sub spec is.
Dark Conviction gives a solid 5% Crit to all attacks; that includes white attacks, spell attacks, and special strikes.
Bladed Armor increases AP which directly effects all the metioned abilities as well. The AP bonus from Bladed Armor for my DK is well over 400.
Subversion speaks for itself. It is a solid dps increase; providing less threat and a huge crit bonus to blood strikes and oblit.
Necrosis only effects white attacks which do not make up the majority of DPS for a DW'ing DK.
BCB is another talent that only effects a small margin of attacks AND it's chance on hit.
I've been reading some posts saying that Sigil of Awareness is still boss for a DW DK...WTF are you smoking? Sigil of Virulence is almost a 100% uptime of 200 str which is another DPS increase to all abilities and melee hits and not just a single ability like SoA does for Oblit...
Apparently someone doesn't like to read. BcB plus Necrosis is a 6 percent increase in dps, minimum. Bladed Armor is worthless 400 ap in terms of dps increases is so much weaker than 6 percent dps, plus you lose 3 percent strength and Epidemic by speccing Blood subspec. The only real debate is between subversion and BcB where it becomes a matter of preference and choice.
Sigil of Awareness is better the longer the fight lasts. Simply because it benefits our greatest attack. This has been mentioned Ad-nauseum. In most fights they are even, and on trash Sigil of Virulence has an advantage because it does benefit most of our abilities. However in an extended boss fight Awareness becomes huge, because Obliterate becomes our predominate attack. I have seen some parses that had Oblit at 45 percent of the dps.
Finally, any frost dps who doesn't spec into Merciless combat has shown that they know absolutely nothing. Please when you come in to my house to dispute something come in with facts and not insults.
Edit: Gemming for set bonus is also just ignorant. You only need to gem for meta gem bonus. The fact that you can't seem to spell/gem/spec correctly only further disproves your claim of being better.
Post by
213594
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Eleazer
Samhein, you are the man! My response came off a bit more petty, but I don't have the time to go back and edit it out. Thanks for making it very clear and concise.
BTW, I have found the difference between Subversion and BcB to be around 25-35 dps which is similar to yours. Nothing much at all.
Post by
Zakkhar
BTW, I have found the difference between Subversion and BcB to be around 25-35 dps which is similar to yours. Nothing much at all.
Subversion is woth picking than because of the threat reduction. There are many situations where KM/Rime procs can boost your threat to the roof, especially on unprepared tanks.
Post by
156180
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
178943
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Eleazer
I updated the thread to reflect the changes based on updated knowledge and some poor wording on my part. Hopefully this will help others from misunderstanding my point. I even bolded and capitalized the spell hit/melee hit portion.
@nakor - absolutely in fact. Subversion is a better heroic talent because you will be dealing with tanks that are probably not very geared. Good luck.
Post by
Thyrael
Hello there .... well i was blood spec .... and i was doing around 5.2k dps in raid boss.... but i want to take a taste a little of DW frost dps spec so i do a little changes on mi gear
Replace pls the Edge of ruin for 2 tankards and the hands for tier 9 of triumph
so please rank my gear... if it is worth it to change from blood to frost ... i was doing 5k on keristraza in the nexus but... i m not sure in raids.....
Srry for my english i know it sucks but i think it is you guys get it
Post by
Thyrael
Hello there .... well i was blood spec .... and i was doing around 5.2k dps in raid boss.... but i want to take a taste a little of DW frost dps spec so i do a little changes on mi gear
Replace pls the Edge of ruin for 2 tankards and the hands for tier 9 of triumph
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ragnaros&n=Thyrael
so please rank my gear... if it is worth it to change from blood to frost ... i was doing 5k on keristraza in the nexus but... i m not sure in raids.....
Srry for my english i know it sucks but i think it is you guys get it
Post by
Eleazer
@thyrael - Well considering that is an awful Blood spec. I really hope it's a pvp spec, because otherwise it's just brutal. You are over the hit cap, and well below expertise cap for either spec. You could change to Frost and probably do more dps because your spec is better for frost than it is for blood. However without an upgrade in expertise I would say you won't maximize your potential dps.
Post by
Zzeeuuss
Hi guys here is my current gear
My Armoury
It isn't the best as i currently have no guild but was wondering if 4k - 5k on bosses and anything above 5k on mobs was acceptable with my current gear?
Also im undecided on whether or not to go for the +hit trink or the t9 shoulders
what do u think?
cheers Zz.
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