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Warriors V Paladins: Tanking
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Post by
Rekijan
1) Why does the standard paladin tanking build not make the paladin decide between threat and survivability, when the warrior build does?
2) Why does a paladin do marginally more single target threat than a warrior, despite doing
substantially
more multi-target threat?
3) Why does a paladin have four unique buffs to give raid members while warriors only have two, and with utterly incomparable durations?
4) Why do the paladin cooldowns of
Ardent Defender
and
Divine Protection
have two minute cooldowns in the average tanking build, while warriors have to glyph
and
spec for something similar (losing 20% on
Shield Wall
at the same time)?
5) Why can paladins stack stamina and get threat from it?
6) Why do paladins have a far more reliable resource pool than warriors, one that is constantly replenished by
Greater Blessing of Sanctuary
,
Divine Plea
and
Divine Illumination
?
7) Why does
Avenger's Shield
do more threat on all three targets than
Heroic Throw
only does on a single target, whilst also having half the cooldown?
8) Why does the paladin multi-target taunt have a 12 second (I think) cooldown compared with the three minutes of
Challenging Shout
?
9) Why are paladins saved the hassle of considering block rating by getting a free 30% from
Holy Shield
when warriors get no comparable talent?
Trying to answer from a protpally pov.
1) Where do you choose in the prot tree of warrior?
2) Threat is going to be nerfed in two ways soon ;)
3) We may have four, but other classes can give similair buffs to wis/might so that leaves only sanc/kings as unique buffs.
4) You also have last stand and shield wall. And yours is 60% or 40% with glyph, ours is always 50%.
5) Once again we are getting threat nerfed by 10% plus we will need str instead of sta aswell.
Plus you have a stack stick for your ranged slot.
6)Divine Illumination is holy only. Divine plea is too not get mana starved during mana drain encounters. And you get all the rage you need by getting hit. Your resource pool is as 'unlimited' as ours.
7)Cuz you are comparing it to the wrong skill, try thunderclap. Plus you can shoot then heroic throw followed by a charge to get enough attention to start a pull.
8) Because it only taunts 3 targets, not all targets.
9)
shield block
Now I dont play a warrior tank, but with my limited experience I can counter all your arguments. Maybe you need to research your class a bit more?
Post by
Sakkura
Trying to answer from a protpally pov.
1) Where do you choose in the prot tree of warrior?
2) Threat is going to be nerfed in two ways soon ;)
3) We may have four, but other classes can give similair buffs to wis/might so that leaves only sanc/kings as unique buffs.
4) You also have last stand and shield wall. And yours is 60% or 40% with glyph, ours is always 50%.
5) Once again we are getting threat nerfed by 10% plus we will need str instead of sta aswell.
Plus you have a stack stick for your ranged slot.
6)Divine Illumination is holy only. Divine plea is too not get mana starved during mana drain encounters. And you get all the rage you need by getting hit. Your resource pool is as 'unlimited' as ours.
7)Cuz you are comparing it to the wrong skill, try thunderclap. Plus you can shoot then heroic throw followed by a charge to get enough attention to start a pull.
8) Because it only taunts 3 targets, not all targets.
9)
shield block
Now I dont play a warrior tank, but with my limited experience I can counter all your arguments. Maybe you need to research your class a bit more?
1. Imp. disciplines or focused rage?
2. Indeed. Your damage is essentially untouched though.
3. Well we have ZERO unique buffs. All we have that can't be covered by others is commanding shout, because it gives somewhat more health than a warlock imp. So paladins 2 - warriors ½ on that point.
4. Last stand doesn't reduce damage taken. It also has a longer cooldown and is not automatically applied like ardent defender. Neither is shield wall.
5. You still have a much higher stamina coefficient than warriors, which means a heck of a lot more than our ranged item slot.
6. You start fights with 100% resources and have no dry spells unless you run completely out of mana. Warriors start with 0% resources and have dry spells when we avoid several attacks in a row.
7. Thunder clap is far weaker than avenger's shield, and is not a ranged ability.
8. Still, 3-target taunt on an 8 second cooldown vs. unlimited target taunt on a 3 minute cooldown.
9. Shield block can only be up a maximum of 25% of the time, so they are by no means comparable.
Post by
havtor
First of all im pala tank lvling a warrior tank atm
What i find is that the warrior tanks so is is normaly alot better then paladins cos they have used it for longer time
paladins have goten to that point that they finaly got 3 specs so is viable. so now they can change around on it.
on the buff location LOOK on the buffs might=ap wisdom=mp5 kings=stats sanc= tanking blessing (only for pala tanks talent)
Sanc was CHANGED COS it was more efficient on warriors dk's druid's then on paladin's
shield block can only be up 25% of the time you say it is a big diferent that thing makes every attack get blocked holy shield dont.
ok 100% and 25% upime = about 25% passive block this might be wrong as i dont got the math on it.
and the taunts DO PPL EVEN KNOW what the Spell do?
let me explain it taunts MAX 3 mobs OF ONE target ppl seems to think it is a aoe taunt it is not we got no aoe taunt's.
im not aware that there was a target amount on thunder clap dont say anything about that in the tooltip.
avenger's shield used to be our only ranged attack now we got that and hand of reckoning single target taunt so do dmg. warrior got ranged weapon they can use there.
the raned weapon is a hack alot better then the librams we have been geting
however what i think might be the reason for us doing more dmg is that we dont focus on hit nor expertice as str is a better stat for us then it. also most of our attacks do holy dmg thats a big factor.
but as i said a good warrior is always better then a medium paladin
Post by
Rekijan
Whenver I see a warrior tank they are at 100 rage the entire time. Why then is it necesarry to even consider focused rage?
Also single target a warrior is superior in dps, or should be anyway. Either with their abilities or the addition of sunder armor stacks.
While you are right that shield wall and last stand arent automatic this can also be a plus.
More higher stamina coefficient? Bull, warriors in equal gear have way more hp.
If you start with charge, which you should you have enough rage to thunderclap. Getting enough threat on everything.
A pally's avenger shield + consecration still loses threat from geared enough aoe dps.
Also you can only use the up-to-three target taunt on mobs attacking on ally, not 3 random mobs. If three raid members all have one add on them a warrior can taunt all of those, a pally only one.
While the uptime of shield block is lower the ability is far more powerfull. Not only do you block every attack it also doubles your block value.
The grass is always greener on the other side mate, but that doesnt mean one class has it better then the other. They are just different and you need to learn to play your side if you wanna succeed not try and bring the other down.
Post by
Haxxer
Whenver I see a warrior tank they are at 100 rage the entire time. Why then is it necesarry to even consider focused rage?
Sometimes you dodge/parry a little too much and go rage-OOM, happens to me sometimes.
If you start with charge, which you should you have enough rage to thunderclap. Getting enough threat on everything.
A pally's avenger shield + consecration still loses threat from geared enough aoe dps.
But we lose the aggro WAY much quicker than they.
Post by
Rekijan
If dps is so high they overaggro you in aoe situations use shockwave to stun them all. They should be able to finish them off in that time if their dps is high enough to out aggro you. If one or two mobs survive taunt one of them and the fight should already be over.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
9. Shield block can only be up a maximum of 25% of the time, so they are by no means comparable.
100% block 25% of the time
vs.
30% block roughly 95% of the time.
That seems pretty comparable to me, especially considering that Shield Block doesn't run out of charges when block maters most (large aoe pulls).
Post by
Porcell
9. Shield block can only be up a maximum of 25% of the time, so they are by no means comparable.
100% block 25% of the time
vs.
30% block roughly 95% of the time.
That seems pretty comparable to me, especially considering that Shield Block doesn't run out of charges when block maters most (large aoe pulls).
Except the 100% block 25% of the time is really only 28% block 25% of the time. I already have ~9% miss, 26.66% dodge, 21.17% Parry, and 15.28% block. It doesn't matter to me if our Shield Block is 30%, 50%, 100%, or 100000% chance to block; I'm already avoiding or blocking ~72.2% of the hits anyway.
28% chance to block 25% of the time with 2x BV
vs.
30% chance to block 95% of the time with 1x BV
I'll tell you which I'd prefer...
More higher stamina coefficient? Bull, warriors in equal gear have way more hp.
Warriors
Vitality
gives Warriors 1*110%*106%*10 = 11.66 Health per Stamina, counting kings.
Paladins
Sacred Duty
and
Combat Expertise
gives Paladins 1*110%*108%*106%*10 = 12.59 health per stamina.
So yes, Paladins do have a higher stamina coefficient. I have 3063 stamina on my warrior unbuffed. That gear would give me 3063*110%*10 = 33693 health with Kings. For paladins that would be 3063*110%*108%*10 = 36388 health. Granted I have 57 stamina on my gun, but that's 664 health worth of stamina, not 2695 health...
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312967
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Post by
Sakkura
For those worried abot rage starved honestly its an easy enough thing to fix. Rage starving really only happens when you completely outgear an encouter
No, that's wrong. It happens whenever you avoid a sufficient number of hits in a row, no matter how hard those hits would have been. I'm already at the point where all or nearly all bosses i tank fill my rage bar completely with one hit or block. It wouldn't matter if they did ten times as much damage (except for the little detail that I'd be dead).
The fact of the matter is that a warrior tank can empty his resource pool in a matter of seconds; if at any point the resource income is removed, he runs "OOM" very quickly.
Post by
Sakkura
22% of base mana is not 5k, not even close. That would mean your base mana pool (your mana pool while NAKED!) was 22.7k. You may not go for intellect, but your base mana pool is still a heck of a lot less than the number you see on your blue bar.
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79224
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Post by
hemek
Well after reading a lot of Paladins saying something is wrong with them I see clearly.....YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW @#$% WARRIORS HAVE IT COMPARED TO YOU.
Earlier point made - Your threat is all Holy - Nothing resists holy so that means threat is not a problem
Also if you use the standard prot cookie cutter for pallies with
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=53583
and
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45745
there is nothing that a pally can worry about. As a matter of fact healers find a Pally a lot easier to heal (as long as they have cookie cutter)
Also thanks to
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48827
,
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=53595
(
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45742
if you glyph it),
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48819
and
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=31801
(which is applied when you do damage from the other skills) you really have no problem with AoE. Something thats not new is that Warriors don't. I don't think they need to nerf Paladin's they need to buff the other classes. Many Warriors, Why do they not have a constant AoE threat like the rest of the tanks?
If you TC too soon you $%^& up your threat for the rest of the fight and have to work on getting it back. If you do it too late your raid/party may already be dead.
Pallies have a lot of things that help them in their tree and with their talents that make them way better then all the other tanks. A great boss tank is the Warrior but you spend time trying to get to the boss and it would be nice to having to rely on getting a pally or dk or druid. Just using warriors to do the trash.
What is the point in having Shockwave? You don't want to have the mobs stunned you want them hitting you so you can get more rage and do more moves....instead you need to use bloodrage.
We have too many CDs, they don't last long and they take ages to come off CD.
Pally tanks are easy to heal thanks to
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=20140
and
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=63650
.
Enough of this *!@#$ing - there is no question about it - Warriors still rely too much on gear and not skill. Pallies don't - I love pallies but they are walking over one specific class and doing a better job just because of their talents and skills.
Post by
hemek
Prot pally here, and pally healer.
I do consider pallies to be slightly overpowered in terms of survivability. My reasoning for this is; a couple of warrior tanks in my guild have been dropped by attacks that both I and our bear tank have been able to live through. (Our healers are most likely panicking at that point, though).
The arguments that pallies start with a full bar, and that warriors are always running on empty is rather ignorant. You have both charge and bloodrage to give yourself rage, and both do so instantly (also bloodrage can be glyphed to not hurt you) I'm not saying that warriors start out filled to the brim with rage, but that is certainly more than enough rage to establish threat.
Also I feel the consecration is more powerful than thunder clap, in terms of generating threat, having said that. I do envy the snap aggro that it creates and the fact that it reduces attack speed for everyone affected, as opposed to the one target our judgments affect.
A warrior's Demo shout is much better than a pallie's similar affect, which relies on a proc, and only affects the target we are attacking.
I am currently leveling a warrior alt so that I may tank with him. I like how warriors aren't as restricted by cooldowns as pallies are (every spell is on a cooldown, which forces us into a rigid rotation).
From a healing perspective, I find that both pallies and warriors are quite easy to heal. The damage that they take can be spiky at time, but it is generally less spiky than a druid or Death Knight. Granted blocking is becoming less effective, but it is still noticeable. And when any tank starts to blow cooldowns, you know you need to step it up
Sorry about the wall of text.
Oh @annavictrix was the pallie tank or the adds, or on the boss for Emalon, because that makes a big difference.
Short vertions: Pallies are a little OP, but warriors are good too.
Good to hear a pally that is honest - I am trying to get my pally to 80 so he can take up tanking for raids too - Good stuff mate :)
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Post by
havtor
Innervate
from drood healers, also some mechanic whereby they get a mana return after being hit by a critical heal, which happens pretty often when I'm on tank duty as a disc priest.
I don't think warriors need to worry unduly though. Currently running TOTC 25, both tanks are prot warriors and, obviously, their role isn't to fill any dps gaps in the group
inervate is a nice spell but if you had been reading you wud see that we now got abilitys to regen mana also the mana on crit heal where you got that from?
pala tank dont get mana on crit heals they get mana on heals so is not over heals crit heals is holy pala so get mana from and thats therre own casts.
also to the topic Shield Specialization wil give rage to warrs when they dodge block and parry, they wil get 5 rage from it pala get 2% of max mana so lets say you got some int and got 6k mana = 120mana is what you gain each time you block dodge parry.
it also tho looks like this is changed to this in 3,2 so good luck warrs
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