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Warriors V Paladins: Tanking
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Post by
312967
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
havtor
Sir, I have been reading, and I was adding to your statement ...
pala tank dont get mana on crit heals they get mana on heals
Sure, through
spiritual attunement
, obviously, with the amount of mana gained directly proportional to the size of the heal received. I should imagine 10% of very little (eg a flash heal) is not much of a boon, 10% of a 28k crit heal is probably worth having. This is why pally tanks shouldn't be spammed with small heals.
for that 28k heal to actualy give you mana for 10% of that it need to NOT be OVER heal lets say 18k of that is over heal then the pala only get 10% of the 10k heal.
also most prot palas only use 1 talent point there making it 5%
Post by
44284
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sakkura
Prot pally here, and pally healer.
I do consider pallies to be slightly overpowered in terms of survivability. My reasoning for this is; a couple of warrior tanks in my guild have been dropped by attacks that both I and our bear tank have been able to live through. (Our healers are most likely panicking at that point, though).
The arguments that pallies start with a full bar, and that warriors are always running on empty is rather ignorant. You have both charge and bloodrage to give yourself rage, and both do so instantly (also bloodrage can be glyphed to not hurt you) I'm not saying that warriors start out filled to the brim with rage, but that is certainly more than enough rage to establish threat.
Also I feel the consecration is more powerful than thunder clap, in terms of generating threat, having said that. I do envy the snap aggro that it creates and the fact that it reduces attack speed for everyone affected, as opposed to the one target our judgments affect.
A warrior's Demo shout is much better than a pallie's similar affect, which relies on a proc, and only affects the target we are attacking.
I am currently leveling a warrior alt so that I may tank with him. I like how warriors aren't as restricted by cooldowns as pallies are (every spell is on a cooldown, which forces us into a rigid rotation).
From a healing perspective, I find that both pallies and warriors are quite easy to heal. The damage that they take can be spiky at time, but it is generally less spiky than a druid or Death Knight. Granted blocking is becoming less effective, but it is still noticeable. And when any tank starts to blow cooldowns, you know you need to step it up
Sorry about the wall of text.
Oh @annavictrix was the pallie tank or the adds, or on the boss for Emalon, because that makes a big difference.
Short vertions: Pallies are a little OP, but warriors are good too.
Warriors do start with an empty resource pool; charge and bloodrage can help, but both have a cooldown and even together and specced are not enough to fill the rage bar. And even if they did, you could still go "OOM" in a matter of seconds. I acknowledge that a paladin tank going OOM is worse than a warrior running out of rage, but the fact remains that the latter happens and the former doesn't. It's a design problem that Blizzard are trying to rectify, most recently with the change to (warrior) shield spec.
Consecration has the advantages of being fire-and-forget, and of being constantly ticking AoE threat. Warriors, on the other hand, have only abilities on cooldowns. If adds appear when the abilities are on cooldown, you're in a pretty pickle. It's not devastating, but it does amount to a lot of extra challenge on certain encounters and achievements. Brann spanking new comes to mind. But you're right about thunder clap being an AoE attack speed debuff, where paladins only have a single-target debuff.
Demoralizing shout does have that AoE advantage compared to the paladin stuff too, but there are some cons. First of all, it takes a GCD and resources (rage) to cast it, at least every 30 seconds. Second, it isn't a "full" AP debuff, and we have to spend
five
talent points plus fillers outside our tanking tree to get it up to par. Paladins get an automatic full AP debuff (albeit single-target only) for just two talent points plus fillers outside their tanking tree. Also, the paladin AP debuff always overwrites the warrior's.
As for your short version, I tend to agree. Warriors are not "broken" or anything like it. And paladins aren't horribly overpowered; personally, I'd just like a few adjustments. Ardent defender is over the top, especially compared to what warriors have. A few of our otherwise identical talents have strange discrepancies; eg.
One-Handed Weapon Specialization
(paladin, 3 points) vs.
One-Handed Weapon Specialization
(warrior, 5 points). Also note the difference between "all damage" and "all physical damage" (not that warriors do a lot of non-physical damage, but still).
Post by
Sakkura
And the argument about DPS is kind of retarded. I do not do 1000 dps more than a prot warrior on boss fights. Yes, I can hit 3k on Razorscale's adds and 4k on Naxx trash, but who cares about trash? I only do 1.8-2.0k on bosses themselves, about the same as warrior tanks, bears and tanking DKs, which is pretty #$%^ty. Our job is NOT dps and if the dps is slacking, raid leaders won't look to the tanks to pick up the slack. They instead kick out the poor dps that can't do more than 2k in Uld 25 with raid buffs.
I personally think this rivalry between prot paladins and prot warriors is silly. Both tanks are good tanks. Both tanks are viable. I've got to wonder, since it was the prot warriors who had the crusade against prot paladins when we started to become viable, what is it about prot paladins that scares you guys so much?
Honestly, if you feel prot warriors are behind on tanking, why take it out on paladins? Why not instead ask for buffs or adjustments for your own class? I don't play a prot warrior, so I don't know if they need buffs or not, but I've seen other prot warriors in action and haven't seen anything wrong with the way they tank.
1. Arguing about DPS is not retarded. DPS is just as good whether it comes from a DPSer, a pet, a tank or even a healer. It all counts; so if you can get an equally survivable tank that does more DPS, you would want to.
2. Crusade? That would be paladins. Nobody (that I know of) wants paladins to be useless as tanks, people are just asking for balance. Death knights and druids were nerfed when they were too good, it wouldn't make sense to exclude paladins from such a nerf as and when appropriate. A small one (nothing like the DK nerfs) seems appropriate to me at the moment.
3. Again, people just want balance. They don't want to look at another class and see them being clearly superior. Whether the balance is reintroduced via nerfs or buffs is of secondary importance, and depends more on how difficult Blizzard wants the content to be. If they want it to be easymode, they could just buff all classes to be equally uber. If they want it to be hardcore they could just nerf all classes to be equally useless. Also, I think there is more "OMGNERF" going on between warriors and paladins because the mechanics of the classes are closer - we are the shield tanks, we have talents that have the same names etc., so comparison and whining becomes easier. I think there would be such discussions even if balance was spot on, because the grass will always be greener on the other side.
Post by
Zellviren
Apologies for the absence, forgot about this topic.
Rekijan,
Trying to answer from a protpally pov.
Thank you for your time. :)
1) Where do you choose in the prot tree of warrior?
15 points have to be spent in the Arms tree in order to pick up
Impale
and
Deep Wounds
, with a further three in Fury for
Armoured to the Teeth
; warrior threat is simply not up to it unless you choose these.
2) Threat is going to be nerfed in two ways soon ;)
I’m aware of that, but from a pure numbers point of view it’s only really one nerf. And in truth, however, I worry that 10% off
Righteous Fury
won’t go quite far enough, but we’ll see. In any event, paladins will be comparable on single target threat and still significantly better at multi-target.
3) We may have four, but other classes can give similair buffs to wis/might so that leaves only sanc/kings as unique buffs.
Paladin blessings are always preferred over other buffs in my experience, due to their stability and longevity. Additionally, warriors would have to spend both rage and a GCD on
Battle Shout
, making
Blessing of Might
infinitely superior.
4) You also have last stand and shield wall. And yours is 60% or 40% with glyph, ours is always 50%.
Always 50% and always on a 2 minute cooldown, in your standard tanking build and glyph set. Our
Shield Wall
is on a 5 minute cooldown with our standard cooldowns and glyphs, meaning we will stop 120% damage over a 10 minute period and a paladin will stop 250%. I know which one I’d rather have. And as for the
Last Stand
comparison, again, you get 60 seconds less of a wait than warriors do, and
Ardent Defender
doesn’t require you to actually press a button; which means it can never be wasted. Tell me that’s not a better primary cooldown for fighting General Vezax. Go on.
5) Once again we are getting threat nerfed by 10% plus we will need str instead of sta aswell.
Plus you have a stack stick for your ranged slot.
Every other class has to choose between threat and survivability with regards to stats. Paladins are not being nerfed, they are being brought in line.
6)Divine Illumination is holy only. Divine plea is too not get mana starved during mana drain encounters. And you get all the rage you need by getting hit. Your resource pool is as 'unlimited' as ours.
Divine Plea
has 100% uptime and
Greater Blessing of Sanctuary
continually refreshes your mana bar, too. You also begin full, while warriors begin with half a bar. We could count out the number of abilities we can each use from the starting point, but it wouldn’t look very good for your argument. There is also the extreme examples of RNG that cause resource starvation and this happens to a warrior considerably more often than it does a paladin.
7)Cuz you are comparing it to the wrong skill, try thunderclap. Plus you can shoot then heroic throw followed by a charge to get enough attention to start a pull.
You’re muddling up abilities, I’m afraid.
Thunderclap
is our version of
Consecration
, as the cooldown and targeting of
Shockwave
makes it incomparable. And, yes;
Consecration
on its own is better than
Thunderclap
and
Shockwave
combined.
8) Because it only taunts 3 targets, not all targets.
So, you think three targets every 12 seconds is comparable to all targets every three minutes in a practical game environment? I don’t. Yours can be used as part of your rotation, where ours is an “oh s**t” button when everything has gone wrong.
9) shield block
As is pointed out in another post, your blocking ratio is still higher than a warrior. In addition, you also get passive threat from
Holy Shield
when warriors don’t; we need to pick up
Damage Shield
. So,
Holy Shield
is effectively two warrior talents rolled into one.
Now I dont play a warrior tank, but with my limited experience I can counter all your arguments. Maybe you need to research your class a bit more?
I think it’s you that needs to research the classes. You haven’t countered a single point (paladins still being preferable in all of them) and misunderstood some of the more basic premises.
Post by
79224
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90985
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44284
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90985
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131584
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Post by
TheJohan
I saw
this
pally MT pull 4.9k on Emalon the other day - not trash, just Emalon, so yes, some of them are doing the job of two men.
I would call this a blatant lie. With that gear, he could not possibly pull that amount of dps on a single target.
Edit:
I'd say warriors are still on the top when it comes to single-target tanking. Paladins come first on multi-target, and i think feral druids need some love.
Post by
228908
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Post by
358147
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Post by
Shaelin
druids having more hp to make up for not being able to
dodge
What?
Post by
blademeld
A whole lot of warrior rage with some insightful and measured comments sprinkled in here and there.
Agreed.
Who else here keeps track of both warrior and paladin patch notes? I know Sakkura might, but most of the replies here seems to be heavily biased towards one side or another.
Warrior tanking and paladin tanking has been compared since tBC due to the fact they are the most easily comparable, they're both in plate, they both have shield and etc. Regardless of this, they are two different tanks and different styles.
Warrior tanking has been noted to be more "active" tanking whereas paladin tanking is more "reactive" or passive, and paladins have always been noted for higher damage. Paladin tanking is also considered easier due to less amount of "Oh #$%^" buttons (moreso in tBC) but that made them less of a boss tank.
I want to clear up some bashings from the warrior community:
Consecration is indeed a fire-and forget, but it's also static, if you have to move the mobs around, well, there goes 75% of Consecration. Someone was complaining about timing Thunder Clap eariler? In trash I doubt that you need to time it as much as you say, in fact, I see warriors spamming TC every 6 seconds in heroic trash, it's also a 20% melee damage reduction and it slows the mobs down for easier kiting.
Last Stand versus Argent Defender, Last Stand is 30% effective Health, it's also one points, but it is an active ability and it has a cooldown.
in 3.1 Argent Defender was a passive, and it was a 20% effective health if the 35% wasn't skipped over (which does happen during melee-heavy bosses) and cost 3 talent points versus 1. The 3.2 changes actually made it worthwhile to take the points for boss tanking. Can I remind you it costs 3 talent points for that extra 30% EH? Just like the fact that one handed expertise costs 2 more for warriors. And face it, this is the testing stage for Argent Defender, it's only been this way for one patch and GC said that they are keeping an eye on it.
Paladins have a better stamina coefficient, but that's due to the fact that warriors have a higher base hp than paladins. That should not be of much concern as Blizzard has stated that they are doing their best to keep warrior and paladin hp to 1-2% difference at most.
As for the built in damage reduction through vindication (the AP reduction) in a 25 man that shouldn't be an issue since you probably would have a ret paladin or maybe a fury warrior specced into it. Probably be a concern in 10 mans though.
For the "advantage" paladins have over warriors in Undeads (no longer the case with single targets due to exo being changed), well, warriors have disarms, sure it may not count in hardmodes or bosses without weapons, but when it kicks in, oh boy does it kick in.
I won't deny that Holy Shield is better overall than Shield Block, though I'd probably prefer Shield Block due to my playstyle
Shield block versus Holy Shield, mitigation wise:
Assuming combined avoidance of 50% and 15% block with 100 BV and a mob swing timer of 2.4,
Holy Shield will leave the user at 45% block and 5% hit at 100 BV.
Shield Block will leave the user at 50% block at 200BV.
The paladin, over 1 minute, will recieve 25 attacks.
12.5 attacks will be avoided
11.25 attacks will be blocked
0.75 attacks will hit.
That is 1125 damage absorbed
The warrior, over 1 minute, will recieve 25 attacks.
over 10 seconds of the shield block, ~4.2 attacks will occur
2.1 attacks from that will be avoided,
2.1 attacks from that will be blocked at 200 each (420)
10.4 attacks will be avoided otherwise
3.12 attacks will be blocked otherwise (312)
7.28 attacks will hit the warrior.
That is 732 damage absorbed.
Edit: forgot about Critical Block, but that's a whole another talent... Like redoubt is... Except redoubt doesn't increase BV
Edit2: just headed over to MMO, got this 3.2.2: Ardent Defender: This talent now reduces damage taken below 35% health by 7/13/20% instead of 10/20/30%. this change will probably make it to live, increases EH by 13.75% instead of 20% now.
Post by
havtor
deleted my postes cos they where not importent as blademeld summed it up so nice
Post by
Teer
druids having more hp to make up for not being able to
dodge
What?
I'm pretty sure he meant block.
Consecration is indeed a fire-and forget, but it's also static, if you have to move the mobs around, well, there goes 75% of Consecration. Someone was complaining about timing Thunder Clap eariler? In trash I doubt that you need to time it as much as you say, in fact, I see warriors spamming TC every 6 seconds in heroic trash, it's also a 20% melee damage reduction and it slows the mobs down for easier kiting.
Thunder clap does not have a movement slowing effect, just an attack speed debuff.
As I see it there are good and bad sides to both TC and Conc. As you say Conc becomes useless when you have to move around, while TC is all aggro at once. Conc on the other hand is more like a DoT on the ground, and if you have a mob miss the first tick it doesn't matter that much, whereas if your TC miss a mob the first time you have to wait for the cooldown.
Again, both good and bad sides to both abilities, and if I had to chose I don't exactly know which one I would prefer.
Argent Defender and Last Stand. One is a passive ability and once is an active buff. Numbers aside, I know from playing a paladin tank in TBC and a warrior tank in vanilla and Wrath that I hate feeling useless. If I see my health drop to dangerous levels I enjoy hitting my Last Stand and feeling like I did my job, whereas with AD I would just feel helpless (even though I know the ability does the work).
But then I need to use my Last Stand and it is on cooldown... 'nuf said.
Post by
Sakkura
Consecration is indeed a fire-and forget, but it's also static, if you have to move the mobs around, well, there goes 75% of Consecration. Someone was complaining about timing Thunder Clap eariler? In trash I doubt that you need to time it as much as you say, in fact, I see warriors spamming TC every 6 seconds in heroic trash, it's also a 20% melee damage reduction and it slows the mobs down for easier kiting.
Last Stand versus Argent Defender, Last Stand is 30% effective Health, it's also one points, but it is an active ability and it has a cooldown.
in 3.1 Argent Defender was a passive, and it was a 20% effective health if the 35% wasn't skipped over (which does happen during melee-heavy bosses) and cost 3 talent points versus 1. The 3.2 changes actually made it worthwhile to take the points for boss tanking. Can I remind you it costs 3 talent points for that extra 30% EH? Just like the fact that one handed expertise costs 2 more for warriors. And face it, this is the testing stage for Argent Defender, it's only been this way for one patch and GC said that they are keeping an eye on it.
Paladins have a better stamina coefficient, but that's due to the fact that warriors have a higher base hp than paladins. That should not be of much concern as Blizzard has stated that they are doing their best to keep warrior and paladin hp to 1-2% difference at most.
For the "advantage" paladins have over warriors in Undeads (no longer the case with single targets due to exo being changed), well, warriors have disarms, sure it may not count in hardmodes or bosses without weapons, but when it kicks in, oh boy does it kick in.
I won't deny that Holy Shield is better overall than Shield Block, though I'd probably prefer Shield Block due to my playstyle
Shield block versus Holy Shield, mitigation wise:
Assuming combined avoidance of 50% and 15% block with 100 BV and a mob swing timer of 2.4,
Holy Shield will leave the user at 45% block and 5% hit at 100 BV.
Shield Block will leave the user at 50% block at 200BV.
The paladin, over 1 minute, will recieve 25 attacks.
12.5 attacks will be avoided
11.25 attacks will be blocked
0.75 attacks will hit.
That is 1125 damage absorbed
The warrior, over 1 minute, will recieve 25 attacks.
over 10 seconds of the shield block, ~4.2 attacks will occur
2.1 attacks from that will be avoided,
2.1 attacks from that will be blocked at 200 each (420)
10.4 attacks will be avoided otherwise
3.12 attacks will be blocked otherwise (312)
7.28 attacks will hit the warrior.
That is 732 damage absorbed.
Edit: forgot about Critical Block, but that's a whole another talent... Like redoubt is... Except redoubt doesn't increase BV
Edit2: just headed over to MMO, got this 3.2.2: Ardent Defender: This talent now reduces damage taken below 35% health by 7/13/20% instead of 10/20/30%. this change will probably make it to live, increases EH by 13.75% instead of 20% now.
1. Yes, it is true that consecration has a limitation in that you can't move mobs out of the area without losing whatever time remains on it. It does still do more threat than thunder clap though, and doing little ticks often is beneficial for situations when extra mobs arrive; warriors will sometimes be handicapped in those situations because their AoE attacks are on cooldown. So threat-wise, both have pros and cons but paladins are still ahead on points in my book. But it's true that thunder clap does an AoE attack speed debuff, which is nice. It doesn't slow mobs though, that was removed ages ago (Edit: Hmm, did it ever? Think it's only mobs that have it... Just like their shield slams can stun).
2. Yeah, but a clicky cooldown of 3 minutes versus an automagic one with an automagic lifesaving proc on 2 minute cooldown - ardent defender wins by so much there that it isn't even funny. I'd pay 5 talent points for that any day of the week. I see they are nerfing it though, and it seems reasonable. I had expected them to nerf the heal part of it instead though. Oh well, I'd still pay more than 3 talent points for the nerfed version if I had the choice.
3. The stamina coefficient gap is a problem because it means we scale differently. In early tiers, it puts warriors ahead while in later tiers it puts us far behind. Especially since our ranged weapon slot has not scaled at all - the highest stamina item there is ilevel 200 still. But even if that had kept up, it would be nothing compared to 8 percentage points of stamina.
4. Disarms - only usable on very few bosses I'm afraid. It is nice on faction champions though. Likewise, the undead advantage is overrated in my opinion.
5. Yeah, holy shield has the benefit of allowing paladins to count block into effective health. Shield block tends to mitigate more damage though, at least according to some napkin math I did a while back. Not really much of an issue anyway, since block is so weak at the moment.
With the (possible) upcoming ardent defender nerf, along with the other paladin nerfs/tweaks already announced, I think balance is getting very close to sorted. I still wish they'd back off a few percent on the paladin stamina coefficient though, in return for upping your base health somewhat. (the reverse for warriors would work too)
Post by
380852
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