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Warriors V Paladins: Tanking
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Post by
Salami
What i really hate about being a warrior tank is not the PvE side of things, but the PvP.
I hate how Prot Paladins can crush me by facerolling, well QQ more eh?
Post by
468487
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
475201
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
KronosIII
Going to post the main differences in why. And wondering when the fudge is blizzard going to do anything about it.
bless of sanc./imp right. fury/ shield of the temp -give 12% reduce damaged on pally (warrior a natural and only10% while in defensive stance)
imp devo. aura-increase armor gained from dev. aura by 50% plus increased healing on tank any target by 6% with your aura from any source. (gives more armor more healing then war
combat expertise/sacred duty(pally)-both fully talented give the pally14% more stam. (wars only 6% from talents)
redoubt/holy shield(pally)-This is a big issue. The pally with these 2 talents is almost 100% of the time going to block.(60% block chance) They are both active normally all the fight.
argent defender(pally)-this is the nail in the coffin. Attacks that bring you below 35% health are reduced by 20%. I tank on both a pally/warrior and this talent here makes warriors close to throw to the side. This talent is too good.
avengers shield.....-PULLS 3 targets at a distance of 30 yards that daze and does damage 30sec CD. Hows that heroic throw warriors? One target? Have to talent to make it silence? 1 MIN CD?
hammer of the righteous- in short....HITS 3 TARGETS, cleave hits 2 targets and requires a glyph to do 3...
Divine strength- not a prot talent but a huge advantage on the war and maybe a reason why pally tanks can do 1k more dps then a war. The ability gives you 15% more str. I think this talent should be moved down the tree more so you can only get if your deep in Ret
Other then that. I'm not going to point out all the obvious other advantages that you already know. Like conq.,bubbles, etc
I will say this however. Prot Warriors are great for shutting down a casting target.And they can almost never be kited. They are also great for moments when it gets a little too frantic. But pallys can do the same things just not as powerful and with lower CD's.
To you people reading. I raid mostly on my war regardless. Just want to point out the not so obvious facts about pally tanks. I just feel dirty playing a pally, like I'm a cheating war with hacks...
Post by
KronosIII
Are warriors better than palis at anything? I'm about to drop my war.
If you lose to a pally as arms/fury to a ret, then you just suck. So yeah go ahead and re-roll to the fruitcake faceroll side brah.
Try saying that to a a pally that knows what they are doing. If you did not guess a pally can kite you...
And a good pally will never get hit by you.
I play a pally/warrior
nice try trolling
Post by
140351
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Post by
KronosIII
Are warriors better than palis at anything? I'm about to drop my war.
If you lose to a pally as arms/fury to a ret, then you just suck. So yeah go ahead and re-roll to the fruitcake faceroll side brah.
RET
I'll even go ahead and put strats on handling wars of any spec.
fury-basically no strat, bash your keyboard. Fury stands no chance against a pally
arms- On very rare instances a warrior might be able to kill you. Maybe 5% of the time. To prevent any chance you must kite the warrior in its dead zone. Around 4-5 yards away. And that is easy with your 15% increased movement. If he manages to get close and hamstrings hand of freedom. To attack basically kill him with judgements and divine storms and exorcisim when it procs.
prot- you are forced to kite with the strat. above for arms. only release hell when you stun the warrior. The fight may take a while but you will win at full health and full mana.
Starts. for WARS
(arms only)
holy-use that mortal strike......pummel him. Try to bring him down as fast as you can with cooldowns. If you fail your dead, it will be a very slow death however
prot-basically run.......you can't win this fight
RET- This is tricky......Up against a pally you are at a big disadvantage. The strat of msot pallys is to faceroll you as fast as they can. To stand a chance against a pally 1 on 1 you must spec into prot for last stand there is no way around it. The key to killing the pally is burst. Macro bladestorm with retal. when used. A pally will normally continue attacking even if you are bladestorming because the damage is not massive amount to worry. But if you mix it with Retal they will have a huge problem.
After this they will most likely use there bubble. Shattering throw and use last stand. Then beat down whatever health they got left.
It all counts on the burst. If they manage to run away from the bladestorm(which is easy with 15% more movement speed) you are in trouble.
Post by
KronosIII
Pallys cant hold aggro worth a *!@#. I only roll with warrior tanks because they hold aggro. Druids are ok, but Pally and DK tanks are (generally) inferior when it comes to holding aggro.
you have no idea what you are doing as a pally do you? Me, my close friend, every pally are able to keep more then enough aggro.
So much aggro that they nerfed it!
reroll a easier cla............there isn't a easier class. what is wrong with you?
has to be troll......
Post by
derrick
The reason i prefer a Warrior is that i don't like tanking with "magic". I want to tank "physical" and wear a shield, thats why i chose warrior =)
Post by
334295
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
It's likely that the top guilds use Warriors, simply because their Warrior tanks are the most experienced (raided through Vanilla and TBC).
Although hashmel makes a good qq case against Paladins, he's missing out on a lot of other key characteristics that make for important tanks.
Catagory--------------------------------------------------------------------------Winner
mitigation--------------------------------------------------------------------------paladin
avoidance-------------------------------------------------------------------------paladin
effective health-------------------------------------------------------------------paladin
oh %^&* capabilities--------------------------------------------------------------paladin
aoe threat-------------------------------------------------------------------------paladin
single target threat--------------------------------------------------------------TIE
utility-------------------------------------------------------------------------------paladin
less need for expertise allowing more gearing for survivability------paladin
talent point efficiency--------------------------------------------------------paladin
buffs---------------------------------------------------------------------------------paladin
solo capabilities------------------------------------------------------------------paladin
How about:
AoE snap threat -----> Warrior (more important for add pickup)
Caster Interrupts -----> Warrior
Taunt refreshing ------> Warrior
Mobility ------------------> Warrior
Offensive Dispel ------> Warrior
CC / Stuns -------------> Warrior
PvP utility ---------------> Warrior
Burst damage ---------> Warrior
Rotation ease ---------> Warrior (when you can get away with spamming Devastate non-stop in a non-optimal but sufficient rotation, whereas Paladins actually need to use more than one button as minimum.)
The point on mitigation isn't necessarily true, once you factor in Critical Block.
Come IC, with more focus on mitigation rather than avoidance, and you'll probably see an increase in block tanks again, likely making Warriors the tank of choice.
Anyway, there are pros and there are cons, and we move on. Why is this thread still even around?
Post by
Bloodspeaker
redoubt/holy shield(pally)-This is a big issue. The pally with these 2 talents is almost 100% of the time going to block.(60% block chance) They are both active normally all the fight.
tbh i'm not sure i'd notice if i removed Redout from my talent build. At least if it wasn't for the 30% block value buff. it is
that
useful. and it have nothing like 100% uptime in my experiance.
I do agree though that in current content prot pallies are slightly better tanks that warriors, but warriors do seem to end up skilled that pallies. I have met
loads
of fail pally tanks and no warrior tanks that didn't know what they were doing. You can have all the tools in the world, but if you don't know what to do with them you might as well try to tank in cloth with pair of daggers for weapons.
Post by
Sakkura
How about:
AoE snap threat -----> Warrior (more important for add pickup)
Caster Interrupts -----> Warrior
Taunt refreshing ------> Warrior
Mobility ------------------> Warrior
Offensive Dispel ------> Warrior
CC / Stuns -------------> Warrior
PvP utility ---------------> Warrior
Burst damage ---------> Warrior
Rotation ease ---------> Warrior
(when you can get away with spamming Devastate non-stop in a non-optimal but sufficient rotation, whereas Paladins actually need to use more than one button as minimum.)
The point on mitigation isn't necessarily true, once you factor in Critical Block.
Come IC, with more focus on mitigation rather than avoidance, and you'll probably see an increase in block tanks again, likely making Warriors the tank of choice.
Anyway, there are pros and there are cons, and we move on. Why is this thread still even around?
Taunt refreshing shouldn't be necessary, and you run into diminishing returns awful fast anyway, so more opportunities for taunting means, if anything, higher risk of a taunt immune mob.
PvP utility and burst damage are not tanking-related issues.
As for rotation ease, you could call it "easy" for warriors to have to spam our heroic strike button at least once per second, but I call it tiresome and annoying. We also have a more complicated rotation of GCD attacks since we rely on procs (you don't use devastate when you just had your shield slam cooldown refresh proc).
As for mitigation (block-wise), I did some napkin math a while back that indicated warriors would block more damage than paladins; however, paladins can be sustainably unhittable in regular tanking gear, which makes block more valuable (since it can to a certain extent contribute to EH).
I don't see how mitigation will be more important in ICC. Block isn't going to work properly until the promised reworking for Cataclysm.
Pros and cons are nice, and each class sees the former in other classes and the latter in their own.
Post by
334295
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sakkura
Block is more important in ice crown citadel because there's a dodge debuff so you can't just stack dodge and be unhittable. Being able to mitigate dmg will become more important.
You can't just stack anything and be unhittable now either, except for gimmick fights like anub'arak hard. As a warrior, you lose far too much by gearing for it to use such gear for any regular raid tanking. So the dodge debuff in icecrown changes nothing whatsoever in this regard.
Post by
Squishalot
You can be unhittable fairly easily at the moment.
The reduction in dodge, and the emphasis on more frequent, smaller hits is what makes block more important. If you're getting hit by 20k shots infrequently, blocking 2k and blocking 4k is still pretty meaningless, since block only takes off 10-20% of the damage. If you're getting hit by 8k shots frequently, then there's a huge difference between 2k and 4k BV, since block takes off 25-50% of the damage. As such, it might well benefit tanks to suit up in a block set, rather than a more traditional avoidance/stam set as is currently the case.
I haven't seen the damage numbers in ICC yet, but the general principle of smaller hits results in BV being more effective as a damage reduction tool. Whether this actually follows through in practice is yet to be seen. See below for some other napkin math on how effective the blocks are in the first place.
Taunt refreshing shouldn't be necessary, and you run into diminishing returns awful fast anyway, so more opportunities for taunting means, if anything, higher risk of a taunt immune mob.
Mobs will no longer become taunt immune now that 3.3 is here. Whether it 'should be necessary' or not isn't the issue though, the fact of the matter is that it's an additional tool that a Paladin doesn't have in the ability to regain control of a situation that's gotten out of hand. If you prefer, I'll remove taunt refreshing, and replace it with 'a true AoE taunt'. 3 mobs off a single target is not an AoE taunt.
PvP utility and burst damage are not tanking-related issues.
Not tanking-related. But considering that hashmel raised 'utility' (what Paladin raiding utility is there other than buffs? which he mentioned separately?) and 'solo capabilities', I believe it's a fair point. After all, what are you doing when you're not raiding?
As for rotation ease, you could call it "easy" for warriors to have to spam our heroic strike button at least once per second, but I call it tiresome and annoying. We also have a more complicated rotation of GCD attacks since we rely on procs (you don't use devastate when you just had your shield slam cooldown refresh proc).
No, not saying that you're spamming Heroic Strike. I'm saying that a decently geared Warrior can get away with spamming Devastate non-stop on a tank-and-spank fight. A Paladin, at minimum, needs to mix and match his attacks, because we've got cooldowns on all of our offensive abilities. If you want tiresome and annoying though, try sitting on a 9-6 Paladin tank rotation for 5-6 minutes and see how tired and annoyed you get.
As for mitigation (block-wise), I did some napkin math a while back that indicated warriors would block more damage than paladins; however, paladins can be sustainably unhittable in regular tanking gear, which makes block more valuable (since it can to a certain extent contribute to EH).
Paladins get an extra 30% block up on Warriors (sustainably). Warriors get a mini-cooldown of 10 seconds every 40 seconds, so they can essentially get that additional 30%, 25% of the time (7.5% block). You then get a 60% chance of blocking double. If you can get approx. 50% avoidance, and rely on 20% block + abilities, then you're comparing 50% block (Paladin) vs 27.5% block with 60% block crit, or total of 44% block (Warrior). This doesn't count the fact that you can get more +BV items on a Warrior though.
Come ICC, with -20% avoidance, you'd get 70% block with a Paladin, vs 47.5% with 60% block crit, being a total of 76% block with a Warrior. This assumes that a Paladin tank is capable of becoming unhittable in ICC using Holy Shield, and that the Warrior is in equivalent gear. If not, then the Warrior gains more benefit from Shield Block than the assumed 7.5%.
I'm not sure if this is enough for you, but this napkin math seems to suggest that the balance of tanking power is definitely shifting in favour of Warriors (irrespective of which is actually better) now that ICC is out.
Edit: I will postscript this with the note that Druid tanks and DK tanks have been shafted. But time will tell how long that will last for.
Post by
Sakkura
You can be unhittable fairly easily at the moment.
The reduction in dodge, and the emphasis on more frequent, smaller hits is what makes block more important. If you're getting hit by 20k shots infrequently, blocking 2k and blocking 4k is still pretty meaningless, since block only takes off 10-20% of the damage. If you're getting hit by 8k shots frequently, then there's a huge difference between 2k and 4k BV, since block takes off 25-50% of the damage. As such, it might well benefit tanks to suit up in a block set, rather than a more traditional avoidance/stam set as is currently the case.
I haven't seen the damage numbers in ICC yet, but the general principle of smaller hits results in BV being more effective as a damage reduction tool. Whether this actually follows through in practice is yet to be seen. See below for some other napkin math on how effective the blocks are in the first place.
You have to sacrifice a heck of a lot of EH to be unhittable at the moment, if you're a warrior. It's simply not worth it for any raid tanking, except anub'arak.
I'm not totally informed about ICC damage either, but I doubt bosses will be hitting for 20k. GC said bosses will still be able to kill tanks, so they should at least be hitting 25-30k, even with the avoidance debuff. That's what bosses in Ulduar (not hard mode!) were hitting for, after all. The focus on EH has probably been lessened a bit, but I would be very surprised if it were enough to make block meaningful.
Mobs will no longer become taunt immune now that 3.3 is here. Whether it 'should be necessary' or not isn't the issue though, the fact of the matter is that it's an additional tool that a Paladin doesn't have in the ability to regain control of a situation that's gotten out of hand. If you prefer, I'll remove taunt refreshing, and replace it with 'a true AoE taunt'. 3 mobs off a single target is not an AoE taunt.
Mobs will still become taunt immune in 3.3, it just takes a bit more. Well okay, open-world mobs apparently won't, but that doesn't matter. And having taunt refresh is not that valuable to a raid tank. For 5-mans it can be useful, but paladins are fine in 5-mans. Actually both warriors and paladins are overpowered in 5-mans due to the way block works. You also seem to have forgotten that our AoE taunt has a 3-minute cooldown, while your 3-mob taunt is ready again in mere seconds. Plus your actual AoE threat generation makes it less likely you will need an AoE taunt in the first place. I for one would rather keep aggro via threat than via taunts.
Not tanking-related. But considering that hashmel raised 'utility' (what Paladin raiding utility is there other than buffs? which he mentioned separately?) and 'solo capabilities', I believe it's a fair point. After all, what are you doing when you're not raiding?
When you're not raiding, you respec. If you bother to, but a respec will always make you better at non-raid tanking tasks, whichever they may be.
No, not saying that you're spamming Heroic Strike. I'm saying that a decently geared Warrior can get away with spamming Devastate non-stop on a tank-and-spank fight. A Paladin, at minimum, needs to mix and match his attacks, because we've got cooldowns on all of our offensive abilities. If you want tiresome and annoying though, try sitting on a 9-6 Paladin tank rotation for 5-6 minutes and see how tired and annoyed you get.
You cannot get away with just spamming devastate, unless your raid has terrible DPSers and doesn't care about losing even more DPS because of the lazy/inept tank. You'd even lose your block value buff that way, if you have the glyph of blocking.
Paladins get an extra 30% block up on Warriors (sustainably). Warriors get a mini-cooldown of 10 seconds every 40 seconds, so they can essentially get that additional 30%, 25% of the time (7.5% block). You then get a 60% chance of blocking double. If you can get approx. 50% avoidance, and rely on 20% block + abilities, then you're comparing 50% block (Paladin) vs 27.5% block with 60% block crit, or total of 44% block (Warrior). This doesn't count the fact that you can get more +BV items on a Warrior though.
Come ICC, with -20% avoidance, you'd get 70% block with a Paladin, vs 47.5% with 60% block crit, being a total of 76% block with a Warrior. This assumes that a Paladin tank is capable of becoming unhittable in ICC using Holy Shield, and that the Warrior is in equivalent gear. If not, then the Warrior gains more benefit from Shield Block than the assumed 7.5%.
I'm not sure if this is enough for you, but this napkin math seems to suggest that the balance of tanking power is definitely shifting in favour of Warriors (irrespective of which is actually better) now that ICC is out.
Edit: I will postscript this with the note that Druid tanks and DK tanks have been shafted. But time will tell how long that will last for.
Of course a paladin will be able to be unhittable with holy shield in ICC. You just said warriors could already be unhittable with relative ease (though that was untrue). So the situation is as before: Paladins take damage more predictably, while warriors take damage in a more spiky way, so even if the overall amount of damage taken is lower (which may not be the case due to the lower general damage reduction compared to paladins) the risk of dying is higher. If preserving healer mana was a priority (it almost never is), then this taking less damage-thing might actually be valuable. Right now it's of very minor importance.
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