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Why are Horde more advantageous in lore ?
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Post by
46491
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Post by
389776
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Post by
Skreeran
All right, I don't want to argue about the Forsaken. I never liked them much anyway...
I just have three things to say:
1. Thrall
has
kept them fairly under control, all thing considered. After all, there's an ocean between them, by the time he heard about the Battle of Hillsbrad, there wasn't much he could do about it. When have the Forsaken
really
attacked the Alliance pre-Wrathgate? There's a little harassing in the Plaguelands, the Hillsbrad thing (a single village), Arathi Basin, but have they ever actually tried to attack the humans of Stormwind before the Wrathgate? You know... A war level attack. Not really... And that's because Thrall wouldn't let them. If they tried, they would have faced serious consequences.
2. There
are
good Forsaken. We have Leonid, Trevor, the player (who does all sorts of good stuff), and so on. They are not necessarily evil.
3. We haven't really seen how the are post-RAS/Varimathras. It was Varimathras that ordered the Batlle of Hillsbrad, after all. The loss of Varimathras and the strengthening of their bonds with the Horde may end up setting them on the course to redemption.
Post by
389776
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Post by
229054
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Post by
taurenmoo812
But Thrall's always been holding her back thus far. That's why you don't really see the Forsaken doing anything against the Alliance on a large scale. They preemptively attacked Hillsbrad to keep the humans there under control (and no, I don't support that), but they haven't really attacked the Alliance with their full capability.
Although I do agree that it is an exaggeration that the Forsaken could take the Alliance alone.
First of all, Thrall has never taken a stand to stop the forsaken and thier evil ways, he lets them do whatever they feel like, wheater you admit it or not, im sure me and you have gone over this already.
They have been giving thier full heart into destroying the Alliance, if they cold have, it would be done. The attack on Hillsbrad is because they deny to human's the right to live, why do you think they kiddnap them and tourture them to death?
Once again, if they could have, they would have. Why do you think they joined the Horde in the first place?
Ok Darkton you punk, I said I'd not bring Varian into this because I trusted in good faith you'd keep the peace and not bring Thrall into this demonising him like you have done in the past, but since you broke that rule the kid gloves are off.
The alliance who populate the centre of the eastern kingdom have as much right to the lands of lordearon has the scarlet crusade do, meaning if anyone has claim to lordearon its the forsaken more then anyone, they being the true citizens of the kingdom of lordearon, undead but with there own free will returned.
But thoses like Varian and his alliance still try to claim lordaeron for there own despite having no claim to it in the past, anymore then in the present. The alliance forces who purposefully labeled the free forsaken as monsters gave them as much right to hate them as the scarlet crusade.
You also appear to be living on a past game mechanic more then the actual progressive story, as many forsaken who have joined the horde have found a path that enables them to regain a sense of honor and dignity, despite having been twisted by undeath, you see examples of forsaken forfilling deeds of herosim as much as any human or dwarf or orc.
But back on track, the humans of the alliance made zero effort to make an alliance with the forsaken, they only ended up perceiving them as monsters, and so the forsaken had no choice but to find allies with the horde... much like the blood elves themselves did who, like the forsaken, were once allies to the grand alliance.
The alliance isn't anywhere as clean as you make out. I know the dark side of the horde I respect so much, and at least I can admit it has that.
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389776
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229054
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389776
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Post by
taurenmoo812
I'm quite a reasonable guy when it comes to it. I just won't let someone diss my homies in the horde without reprisal.
Post by
389776
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Post by
Arkham
if anyone has claim to lordearon its the forsaken more then anyone, they being the true citizens of the kingdom of lordearon, undead but with there own free will returned.Absurd. The Forsaken being residents of Lordaeron doesn't make the Scarlet Crusade, or the residents of Hillsbrad, Southshore, and Stromgarde, any less the residents of Lordaeron themselves, or have any less of a claim to the land of Lordaeron--they are
all
the "true citizens" and rightful residents of the land. Excluding them from that is baseless.
And they aren't invading Stromgarde, thats the Defilers, a minor faction with Varimathras' support.Defilers = Forsaken. They are a military force of the Forsaken faction the same way the other Battleground factions are military forces of their respective racial factions.
So Defilers attacking Stromgarde = Forsaken attacking Stromgarde. Period.
Post by
Skreeran
Absurd. The Forsaken being residents of Lordaeron doesn't make the Scarlet Crusade, or the residents of Hillsbrad, Southshore, and Stromgarde, any less the residents of Lordaeron themselves, or have any less of a claim to the land of Lordaeron--they are all the "true citizens" and rightful residents of the land. Excluding them from that is baseless.However... There would seem to be more Forsaken than living survivors. Most survivors either went to Theramore (and have little interest in taking Lordaeron from the Forsaken) or joined the Scarlet Crusade, in which case they're no better than the Forsaken.
Post by
229054
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Post by
Arkham
or joined the Scarlet Crusade, in which case they're no better than the Forsaken.I agree that they're no better. But what I was disputing was taurenmoo's assertion that the Forsaken had the
best
claim to Lordaeron. Yes, the Scarlets are brutal, racist, zealous, whatever else you might want to accuse them of, but despite all that the land of Lordaeron is still their home as much as it is the Forsaken's.
By that logic I would say that the Warsong Clan, the Silverwing Sentinels, the League of Arathor, the Stormpike Clan and the Frostwolf not only represent their respective races, but also speak for them as a whole. What I mean is that every Orc, Human, Night Elf, Dwarf and Forsaken also agree with those same conflicts. Which is unlikely, I would say that most Forsaken wanted to attack Arthas before anything else.
But you got me thinking about this. Looking at the Forsaken general personality, even if I'm wrong (which... I confess I find more likely) its quite justifiable. They are a vengeful race, and with all the cute things the humans did to them as they organized as a faction...Hold on a minute. In your first paragraph there, you talk about how the military factions don't represent their entire race, not everyone in the larger faction may agree with their actions, etc.
But
then
you say that the Forsaken are justified in being vengeful because of "all the cute things humans did to them?" What the hell did Stromgarde ever do to the Forsaken, and given that I'm pretty sure the answer is "nothing," why should Stromgarde answer for the crimes of other humans? And if you are claiming they should, then why do the rest of the Forsaken get a pass for what the Defilers, or the RAS, are doing?
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229054
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451455
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222376
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Post by
Adamsm
Varian has a huge claim to Lordaeron, he and Terenas were staunch allies, and Arthas was like a brother to him. No he doesn't. He was never married into the royal family of Menethil, so he has no claim at all. The Royal family is dead, Arthas made sure of that. So yes, the people of Lordaeron (be they members of Southshore, survivors of Silverpine, or Scarlets), would have first claim, but unfortenately they don't have the numbers or the armies to do so. So, as much as the human allies hate it, the Undercity is in the hands of the Forsaken, and short of wiping them out, there is no way to reclaim it.
And in all honesty, would you want to? The City is in ruins, the lower level is a cesspool only made for the undead to live in, would be better for them to try to reclaim one of the old 7 nations and fix that up.
Post by
389776
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