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Why are Horde more advantageous in lore ?
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Post by
Skreeran
First of all, please, be civil. Calling names only discredits
you
.
Varian has a huge claim to Lordaeron, he and Terenas were staunch allies, and Arthas was like a brother to him.So (hypothetical here, bear with me) if the UK's monarch dies, and there is some event causing less than half the population to move to the US for 20 years, the US, as their ally gets to go overthrow the remainders?
Varian and Stormwind don't have a claim to Lordaeron because the people of Lordaeron have the claim to it. Where are those people now? Some are in Stormwind, some are in Theramore, but most are now Forsaken or Scourge.
Forsaken consite of: Vrykul, Orcs (first race to join), Ice trolls, High elves, and Humans.
Varian and stormwind have more of a claim then 4/5 of these people.Wut.
Forsaken are mostly undead humans, with a tiny amount of undead High Elves.
Destorying the Forsaken because they want to destroy humanity, and Lordaeron being a spoil of war.Alright, look at it a different way:
Destorying the
Humans
because they want to destroy
the orc race
, and
Stormwind
being a spoil of war.
or
Destorying the
Humans
because they want to destroy
the Forsaken
, and
Stormwind/Lordaeron
being a spoil of war.
It goes both ways...
The Forsaken government is all vilians to the end. This has been proven many times in past and present. Leonid, Trevor, the guy who help Brann, and the argent ones are all Forsaken, and they have one thing in commen: They are sickend and out raged at thier leaders choices, and left all because of that. May I remind you the women in RotLK who was murderd just before WotLK? Are we just going to let her and countless of amounts of innocents go unavenged? NO! Its time to make things right, as Varian would say, and disband these bastards from thier wrected lives!I'm not going to argue about Sylvanas. There's too much going on there for me to make a real decision. She's not good, but we have reason to believe she's not exactly evil either. I don't remember Leonid or Trevor saying anything about hating the Forsaken. As for the humans, there's not much to say about that, other than it really doesn't seem that common. Not going to defend it though.
And again, post-RAS, we don't know if they're still doing that. I'd guess Thrall is going to keep a much closer eye on Sylvanas and her people. One of his best friends' son was killed in that battle, and it cost him a ton of face with the Alliance.
The Alliance has made zero effort, because the Forsaken are not intrested. They all see humans as scum to azeroth, and want them all dead. The Thassurian and Ebon Blade inncident proves that if they tried, they would be welcomed back. But no; they are ruled by a crazy witch wanting to destroy humanity, and most of them feel extremly loyal to her. Just look at thier quests, they hate humans, and you harass humans for fighting back. The Forsaken want nothing more then death to the Alliance, and all this "o pls, dat was vallina wow, dey good guyz now" is all a load of crap, give me one damn source; im tired of hearing that they changed thier evil ways when its not said anywhere.How do you know? To quote Dan Golthas: "When I clawed my way out of the grave, I thought my family would welcome me with open arms. Instead, they drove me out of the village, screaming in a language I could no longer understand." Seems he tried to go back to his people, and I imagine many more did as well.
And look at Mograine and Abbendis' conversation on it:
Brigitte Abbendis: These "Liberated Undead" have been toiling for weeks. But to what end?
Alexandros Mograine: They are calling themselves the Forsaken, Brigette. And I suspect they intend to take Lordaeron's old Capital as their own.
Abbendis: Whatever they call themselves, I say we attack the worm-ridden filth now, before they're fully entrenched!
Mograine: Did you learn nother at Stratholme? These are not mindless drones like the Scourge. No, this new enemy is calculating, organized. Disciplined. I agree they must be dealt with, but it will take a superior force to do so. If your father's right about Tyr's Hand, we may recruit additional personnel from there. Once we've amassed an army, we will obliterate them, but not before.Doesn't seem they ever thought to accept them, whether the Forsaken were interested or not.
And the blood elfs could all chock on dark magic for all I care, we sent that dwarven ambassodor, and they took his head.Well, you got me there. But remember, that was back when they were under Kael'thas. They've changed alot since, as evidenced by Lady Liadrin's constant chatter with A'dal.
Plus, he was a spy.
Post by
229054
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Post by
Adamsm
So yes, the people of Lordaeron (be they members of Southshore, survivors of Silverpine, or Scarlets), would have first claim, but unfortenately they don't have the numbers or the armies to do so.
Its valid to remember that the Forsaken are from Lordaeron. =DYeah, but do dead people really have a claim to anything? (I'm going by the idea that the living would have more a claim then the undead.) But like I said, even if they all worked together, more then likely the Forsaken army would kick their butts.
Post by
229054
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Post by
451455
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Post by
389776
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Post by
451455
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Post by
Adamsm
Dont lie, Orcs were the first race to join the scourge, Vrykul were tested on with the grain first, and the ice trolls have been raised as undead before we even knew what the scourge was.Uh, Dark, the Vyrkul didn't wake up till after Arthas combined with the Lich King, and they willing serve him, even though they are alive, it's only when they die that their turned into the Varghul. And the orginal Lich King and the Lichs were orc's yes, but just that small group, mainly made up of warlocks and first generation Death Knights that followed the ex-shaman Ner'zhul through that portal. In all honesty the first forces of the Lich King were the humans trying to live in Northrend, and once he had enough, Ner'zhul sent them after the Nerubians and the Ice Trolls of Zul'drak, but they fought back against them, and weren't conqueror enmass till again, the merge happened, the Ice Trolls I mean.
Post by
389776
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Post by
229054
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Post by
Skreeran
Dont lie, Orcs were the first race to join the scourge, Vrykul were tested on with the grain first, and the ice trolls have been raised as undead before we even knew what the scourge was.Scourge yes, Forsaken no. Forsaken consist
entirely
of humans and high elves from the Lordaeron continent.
Orcs: I'm not sure what you're talknig about here. If you mean the original Death Knights, they would appear to (mostly) still be on Outland (see:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Ghostriders_of_Karabor
). Teron is, after all, the Black Temple. If you mean Liches, show me one lich that works for the Forsaken. One.
Vrykul: Again, show me one that works for the Forsaken. Even if they were able to escape the Lich King's grip, they wouldn't they gave themselves willingly to him.
Ice Trolls: Show me... Ah nevermind, you get the idea.
We only want to destroy the Forsaken because they want us dead, and I have no idea where you are coming up with us wanting to destroy the orcish race. They wanted a war, and now they got one. The Alliance simply wants to disband the Horde because they wont leave us alone.Well, there are certainly many among the humans and Night Elves that want to utterly wipe out the orcs. Doesn't mean we can just run in and take your land.
The Alliance disagrees with the Scarlets, and Briigette is a little b1tch....That was before the Scarlet Crusade broke off, before the Argent Dawn broke off, in fact. And Alexandros Mograine, the Ashbringer, Hero of Men and mightiest of the pre-corruption Scarlet Crusade wanted to wipe out the Forsaken, before they ever began experimenting on humans.
Finally, the dwarf was a Ambassador; the blood elfs mistaken Ironforge's mission(Ambassodor) with Darnassus'(Make sure ancient enemys are not doing any trouble; spying)Wrong. He is very certainly a spy. The Night Elves there have dwarven documents detailing the Sanctum and it's sabotage. The dwarf was merely undercover. They couldn't let him leave, or he'd simply take his information right back to the Blood Elves enemies.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Alright Taruenpoo, you forget-mothers-day-person, I will play your game.
I got a laugh out of the irony of name calling, suited the posters avatar nicely.
First off, I would really like to see some evidence that EVERY human in Lordaeron is dead, other then the opinion "because delt said so"
Varian has a huge claim to Lordaeron, he and Terenas were staunch allies, and Arthas was like a brother to him. Sylvanas has no claim at all, and Forsaken consite of: Vrykul, Orcs (first race to join), Ice trolls, High elves, and Humans.
Varian and stormwind have more of a claim then 4/5 of these people.
And if you disagree, then I look at it as, Destorying the Forsaken because they want to destroy humanity, and Lordaeron being a spoil of war.
So your saying an outsider who happens to be 'alive' but has had no claim to lordearon, because he's alive he should be given claim over it. Thats how your logic works isn't it?
The Forsaken government is all vilians to the end. This has been proven many times in past
and present
. Leonid, Trevor, the guy who help Brann, and the argent ones are all Forsaken, and they have one thing in commen: They are sickend and out raged at thier leaders choices, and left all because of that. May I remind you the women in RotLK who was murderd just before WotLK? Are we just going to let her and countless of amounts of innocents go unavenged? NO! Its time to make things right, as Varian would say, and disband these bastards from thier wrected lives!
As it was posted above, the forsaken have been screwed around by humans long enough since there were risen from undeath and freed from Arthas's will. The RAS is new in terms of the forsaken lore, and used as a method of counter human threats who want to destroy them, so it stands to more just reason they should defend themselves, counting on your opinion of wiping them out.
And.. ha.. it looks like you replace the word 'orc' with 'forsaken/undead'. King 'hole between his ears' Varian only wants more reasons to attack the horde any chance he gets, and doesn't give a real crap about the forsaken, its just an excuse for him to 'Rawr, Me kill Green skins!'.
The Alliance has made zero effort, because the Forsaken are not intrested. They all see humans as scum to azeroth, and want them all dead. The Thassurian and Ebon Blade inncident proves that if they tried, they would be welcomed back. But no; they are ruled by a crazy witch wanting to destroy humanity, and most of them feel extremly loyal to her. Just look at thier quests, they hate humans, and you harass humans for fighting back. The Forsaken want nothing more then death to the Alliance, and all this "o pls, dat was vallina wow, dey good guyz now" is all a load of crap, give me one damn source; im tired of hearing that they changed thier evil ways when its not said anywhere.
And the blood elfs could all chock on dark magic for all I care, we sent that dwarven ambassodor, and they took his head.
As I recall the Thassurian insident, he was thrown in as something expendable by his own king, just another undead, but one neive enough to follow orders perhaps?
'The forsaken want nothing more then the death of the alliance', again, are you speaking of them, or speaking of Varians take on the horde and what he wants to do to them?.
Blood elves dabling in dark magics you say? So those warlocks in the alliance are all suger and buttercups then, they don't summon demons and life suck souls, but summon cakes and bunnies?
And stop making up storys already, Delt. I have explained to
you
countless amounts of times, and your ignoring
me
.
I'm ignoring what you say on it because the bases of everything you keep saying is so ridiculously one sided its a joke. I might be a horde fan boy, but I can at least say what alliance characters I like, and I don't paint one side black and the other white like you, I only zero in on the dark elements in characters, like your sweetheart Varian.
You really are as nieve as your avatar.
Post by
Arkham
These two come from the RAS article in wowwiki and they support my claims about the Forsaken being attacked before they attacked the humans. Not that I quoted those before.Didn't Sylvanas and the Forsaken work with Garithos during the Frozen Throne (which should be quite a while before the founding of the RAS--in fact, near the beginning of the Forsaken faction itself first coming into existence)? And didn't Sylvanas kill Garithos and his men?
And--because I know someone's going to bring it up--don't dismiss this just because Garithos was racist. I find it interesting that a character who is almost universally reviled by the player base for being a racist not only willingly worked with the Forsaken, but held up his end of the deal with them (say what you will about him, evidently he was at least honest). He helped her kill Balnazaar and his forces, but she decieved him and killed him and his men after he completed his part of the bargain.
Wouldn't that constitute initial hostile action toward the Alliance on the part of the Forsaken?
Post by
Skreeran
I don't remember Sylvanas killing his men, just him.
And he only joined with her because his forces alone couldn't take on the Dreadlords by himself. He would have backstabbed her just as quickly had he had the capability.
Post by
Arkham
He would have backstabbed her just as quickly had he had the capability.And you can back this claim up with... what?
Again, he worked with her and held up his end of the bargain. That's not a "would have," that's exactly what happened. Seems like there's plenty of reason to believe that he wouldn't have backstabbed her "just as quickly," or at all.
And really, Sylvanas wasn't just "getting him first." She made it perfectly clear that she simply had no intention of giving him the land that she wanted to claim but had nonetheless agreed to allow to him as part of the agreement.
Post by
Adamsm
He would have backstabbed her just as quickly had he had the capability.And you can back this claim up with... what?
Again, he worked with her and held up his end of the bargain. That's not a "would have," that's exactly what happened. Seems like there's plenty of reason to believe that he wouldn't have backstabbed her "just as quickly," or at all.
Well seeing as he wanted to take Lordaeron back, more then likely he would have killed them if given the chance.... just like her, so they were the perfect partners in crime.
Post by
Skreeran
He would have backstabbed her just as quickly had he had the capability.And you can back this claim up with... what?
Again, he worked with her and held up his end of the bargain. That's not a "would have," that's exactly what happened. Seems like there's plenty of reason to believe that he wouldn't have backstabbed her "just as quickly," or at all.How did he hold up his end of the bargain? By taking Capital City and telling her to gtfo? The only reason he didn't kill her there was because his men couldn't stand up to the Forsaken.
Just look at Kael'thas, for example. He wasn't even as distant from the humans as the Forsaken in terms of culture and physiology, but Garithos sentenced him to execution for seemingly no reason. You don't think he would have done the same to Sylvanas, who was not only of the same race, but also undead?
Garithos was a bully, and he picked on those who didn't have the power to fight back. With the Forsaken, it just turns out that he met someone who wouldn't stand to be pushed around.
Post by
46491
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
I wonder what would be better... An extremely xenophobic Warlord, leading Lordaeron, or Sylvanas, who actually cooperates with other races and factions, leading the Undercity?
Post by
Adamsm
I wonder what would be better... An extremely xenophobic Warlord, leading Lordaeron, or Sylvanas, who actually cooperates with other races and factions, leading the Undercity?
Of course Sylvanas might or might be plotting all of our deaths, maybe we should have kept the Xenophob, atleast we know he wants anything not a human dead.
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