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3.3.0 Haste Soft Caps
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Post by
skribs
The following is the amount of haste rating you would need, assuming you had the buffs listed for each (I had to do a lot because of the amount of haste talents you could potentially choose). "Raid Buffs" means Imp Moonkin Aura or Imp Ret Aura along with Wrath of Air Totem.
This assumes the following change for GOTEM (copied from PTR notes on O Site):
Gift of the Earthmother: Redesigned. This talent now increases spell haste and reduces the base global cooldown by 2/4/6/8/10% instead of its previous effect.
Updated GOTEM:
Gift of the Earthmother: Redesigned. This talent now increases spell haste by 2/4/6/8/10% and reduces the base global cooldown of Lifebloom by 2/4/6/8/10% instead of its previous effects.
442 Haste w/ GOTEM and raid buffs to get Lifebloom GCD to 1.0 sec
405 Haste w/ above + 1 point in Celestial Focus
370 Haste w/ above + 2 points
334 Haste w/ above + 3 points
0 Haste w/ GOTEM, raid buffs, and Nature's Grace to get GCD to 1.0 sec
856 Haste w/ GOTEM and Raid Buffs to get Nourish/GCD to 1.0 sec
815 Haste w/ above + 1 CF to
775 Haste w/ above + 2
735 Haste w/ above + 3
167 Haste w/ GOTEM, NG, and Raid Buffs to get Nourish to a 1.0 sec cast
133 Haste w/ above + 1
99 Haste w/ above + 2
66 Haste w/ above + 3
2234 Haste w/ GOTEM and Raid Buffs to get Regrowth to a 1.0 sec cast
2179 Haste w/ above + 1
2125 Haste w/ above + 2
2073 Haste w/ above + 3
1315 Haste w/ GOTEM, NG, and Raid Buffs to get Regrowth to a 1.0 sec cast
1270 Haste w/ above + 1
1225 Haste w/ above + 2
1181 Haste w/ above + 3
Whichever soft cap is the one you want to aim for, this allows you the numbers you will need. However, the likely culprit is going to be HoTs without NG procs, which is the first set.
Post by
404185
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Post by
260787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
404185
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
The tooltip looks like it would give 10% spell haste (which affects the GCD) and additionally gives 10% reduced GCD. If that is true then it would basically stay at 20% GCD reduction for HoTs (well, 0.9 * 0.9, minor difference) and additionally 10% for spells with a cast time. This would basically be a buff to the talent, not a nerf.
I think you calculated the haste caps using this assumption, right?
I thought it would be implemented in a way that it only gives 10% spell haste and nothing else (which will also reduce the GCD by 10%. This would be a very noticable nerf since Druids then won't be able to get to the 1s GCD easy anymore. We might even have to start gemming haste.
With this assumption the haste required for Nourish and the GCD should be the same, right?
Does anyone know which one of those the patch will bring? Is the tooltip wrong or not?
Post by
260787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
Megavolt, technically it's 0.9/1.1 which is closer to 0.9*0.90909090909090909... you get the picture.
Anyway, I'm assuming the tooltip is correct and that it takes cast time or GCD and divides it by 1.1 for 5/5 GOTEM, after subtracting 0.15 seconds off the GCD for HoTs, dispels, swiftmend or glyphed+talented HT (otherwise it doesn't matter). That is based on the tooltip.
Post by
260787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
I havent trusted EJ on anything since LK came out. They didn't have the right info on DKs, my guild's prot warrior tried their spec and rotation and lost about 60% of his threat, and they have one of the worst talents resto shamans can spec into in their cookie cutter.
Even if it is the way you say instead of Blizzard - just use the math for Nourish for the HoTs (probably the one without NG procs, as that is more likely if you're spamming HoTs).
Post by
260787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
Reason I didnt show the math is because the math was done in excel, and would require about 3x the posting length that most users dont want to see. The formulae I used was a base cast time of 1.5 for nourish, 2.0 for regrowth, or 1.35 GCD for HoTs (assuming GOTEM works like that). Then I divided by 1+haste (e.g. 3% haste is 1.03), separately for each application of haste (e.g. Nourish with raid buffs would be 1.5/1.03/1.05).
The resulting number is going to be 1<x<1.5, else the soft cap is 0 for that set of buffs. If you then take the decimal after the 1, that number is the haste you need (e.g. a cast time of 1.1 means you need 10% haste to get that cap) which you then multiply the numbers.
You posted that these are the 3.3 haste soft caps and I'm merely disagreeing with you. Telling me that I should be using the math for Nourish in place of the GCD ones (when the GCD ones are incorrect) isn't helping the OP. You still have misinformed information posted.
Instead of "math" I should have said "numbers", because you're basically doing the same thing. Notice how we came up with the same number for Nourish with those buffs of 735 haste (we may have rounded slightly different, but 735 is what I came up with). So calling me wrong when my math matches yours is calling yourself wrong.
Edit: you dont have to go with my numbers. But dont call me wrong because they're not your numbers (even though they match). 95% of the player-base doesn't do the math, they read the forums. Its for those people that I am posting the numbers.
Post by
skribs
Ok, I threw in the math. During the calculations, I did change some of the values of haste needed by 1, because I made a rounding error. However, overall you'll notice all the math is now there, but its basically the same information. The only difference is instead of my results which 95% of the community wants, I get everything which 5% of the community wants.
Note that now with the new GOTEM (quoted in the OP), most instants will use the nourish math now, where lifebloom will use the original GCD math.
I = Imp Moonkin Aura = 0.03
W = Wrath of Air = 0.05
G = GOTEM = 0.1
S = Standard Buffs = (1+I)(1+W)(1+G) = 1.18965
C = Celestial Focus = 0.01 (2CF or 3CF is 0.02 or 0.03, respectively)
N = Nature's Grace = 0.2
Base GCD = 1.35 (with GOTEM)
Nourish = 1.5
Regrowth = 2.0
Haste Rating needed for 1.0 cast/GCD is:
(Cast Time - 1 ) * 3279; Cast Time >1
0; Cast Time < 1
For the GCD:
1.35/S = 1.134788; 0.134788*3279 = 441.9684; round up to:
442 Haste w/ GOTEM and raid buffs to get GCD to 1.0 sec
1.35/S/(1+C) = 1.123552; 0.123552*3279 = 405.1271; round up to:
406 Haste w/ above + 1 point in Celestial Focus
1.35/S/(1+2C) = 1.112537; 0.112537*3279 = 369.0082; round up to:
370 Haste w/ above + 2 points
1.35/S/(1+3C) = 1.101735; 0.101735*3279 = 333.5906; round up to:
334 Haste w/ above + 3 points
1.35/S/N = 0.945656; Already below 1.0. Adding CF would have no further effect.
0 Haste w/ GOTEM, raid buffs, and Nature's Grace to get GCD to 1.0 sec
For Nourish, without NG:
1.5/S = 1.260875; 0.260875*3279 = 855.4093; round up to:
856 Haste w/ GOTEM and Raid Buffs to get Nourish to 1.0 sec
1.5/S/(1+C) = 1.248391; 0.248391*3279=814.4745; round up to:
815 Haste w/ above + 1 CF to
1.5/S/(1+2C) = 1.236152; 0.236152*3279 = 774.3424; round up to:
775 Haste w/ above + 2
1.5/S/(1+3C) = 1.224151; 0.224151*3279 = 734.3424; round up to:
735 Haste w/ above + 3
For Nourish; With NG:
1.5/S/(1+N) = 1.050729; 0.050729*3279 = 166.3411; round up to:
167 Haste w/ GOTEM, NG, and Raid Buffs to get Nourish to a 1.0 sec cast
1.5/S/(1+N)/(1+C) = 1.040326; 0.04326*3279 = 132.2288; round up to:
133 Haste w/ above + 1
1.5/S/(1+N)/(1+2C) = 1.030127; 0.03127*3279 = 98.78536; round up to:
99 Haste w/ above + 2
1.5/S/(1+N)/(1+3C) = 1.020125; 0.020125*3279 = 65.99133; round up to:
66 Haste w/ above + 3
For Regrowth; without NG:
2/S = 1.681167; 0.1681167*3279 = 2233.546; round up to:
2234 Haste w/ GOTEM and Raid Buffs to get Regrowth to a 1.0 sec cast
2/S/(1+C) = 1.664522; 0.664522*3279 = 2178.966; round up to:
2179 Haste w/ above + 1
2/S/(1+2C) = 1.648203; 0.648203*3279 = 2125.45; round up to:
2126 Haste w/ above + 2
2/S/(1+3C) = 1.632201; 0.632201*3279 = 2072.986; round up to:
2073 Haste w/ above + 3
For Regrowth, with NG:
2/S/(1+N) = 1.400972; 0.400972*3279 = 1314.788; round up to:
1315 Haste w/ GOTEM, NG, and Raid Buffs to get Regrowth to a 1.0 sec cast
2/S/(1+N)/(1+C) = 1.387101; 0.387101*3279 = 1269.305; round up to:
1270 Haste w/ above + 1
2/S/(1+N)/(1+2C) = 1.373502; 0.373502*3279 = 1224.714; round up to:
1225 Haste w/ above + 2
2/S/(1+N)/(1+3C) = 1.360167; 0.360167*3279 = 1180.988; round up to:
1181 Haste w/ above + 3
Post by
260787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
Either way, math or numbers, it's not the same thing. Your values are incorrect and don't coincide with the majority of the player base that does do the math
So...even though I do what you say and post the math, your best critique is "you're wrong." Why am I wrong? How do I not understand how the tooltip works? I read the tooltip and understood it to mean that it grants 10% spell haste (basically the same buff as if you had 328 haste rating, only it stacks multiplacitively with that) and then it also reduces the GCD by 10% (which I take to be the same as what GOTEM does now, only half). Where am I wrong?
Blizzard has made it so that the base global cooldown and Nourish have the same time; 1.5 seconds. Thus, when you have a 1 second GCD, you'll have a 1 second Nourish so your numbers should be the exact same for both.
Where is your source on this? They changed it to 10% haste, then said they'd drop 10% off the GCD for lifebloom as well, and then they changed it to the current tooltip. Which leads me to believe that my math is correct. How do you know that the majority of the others who did the math are correct while I'm incorrect? Even at that, where is the source other than your word in this thread?
See, you're doing the exact same thing you accused me of - you are saying "you're wrong, because I say so" or "you're wrong, because someone else (that I haven't told you who) said so." And yet you didnt accept my initial arguement because I said "these are the numbers because I say so." Now that I've done the math, either accept my work or critique it for what it is, not for what you say it is.
EDIT: Basically, these forums are to educate people. If people are told "you're wrong" without being told what's right, then they will never know what is right. Lets assume you know the haste cap and I dont. I can say "1?" and you can say "wrong." Then I say "2" and you say "wrong." Its going to take a LONG time before we get me the right answer. If, however, I am wrong - tell me what's right. It saves a lot of time that way.
Also, anyone else who looks and sees "You're wrong" is going to wonder "what's right, then?" Do all of those readers - the 95% of the playerbase - a favor, and tell them.
Post by
260787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
A lot of those posts are old, using the older tooltip which simply stated haste and had nothing to do with the GCD. Its possible Blizzard changed only the tooltip, but its also possible they havent. Remember, anything in the patch notes is subject to change, as they do multiple builds for each patch.
The tooltip went from (current live version) of reducing the GCD of LB, WG, and Rejuv by 20% to increasing haste by 10%, to increasing haste by 10% and reducing GCD of LB by 10%, now its 10% haste and reduces GCD by 10%. I take those as 2 separate effects, and not simply a tooltip change, based on the fact lifebloom was thrown in between the simply 10% haste and the 10% haste + 10% GCD. So it is entirely relevant that most posts you linked only quoted the earlier version - they were correct at the time but now they appear not to be.
Also, you showed your math in that 1 post, but you have failed to prove that I am wrong in my reading of the tooltip.
Post by
404185
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
260787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
This is under skrib's assumption. Either way, it really isn't a big nerf and that's one way to tell that it's incorrect. They want to give Druid's something to stack, like all other classes and moving from 359 to ~400 haste rating really isn't much of a change.
What Blizzard intends and what Blizzard does are not necessarily the same thing. For example, they intended for most classes to have viable CC, but then made CC almost unneeded in the initial raids. So while they gave classes CC to be competitive, they then removed the need for it, thus negating the need for it in the first place. What I think happened was they did the nerf, then druids QQ'd, so they changed it back. Now instead of (assuming no other haste) a 1.2 sec GCD, its a 1.23. So still a slight nerf.
Again, that is assuming I'm correct. I could very well be wrong,
but there is no way to know for sure at this point.
Unless I am proven wrong, by something more than just logic - e.g. a blue quote or proof from someone currently testing it on the PTR (not sure how they'd do that, either - I am going to assume what is stated in the tooltip is correct.
I'm not saying your interpretation of the tooltip is wrong. I am saying I think it's wrong. I'm saying you're wrong in stating that I'm wrong as fact. You could very well be right, but I don't think you are. Neither of us has solid proof - you have your logic, and I have what I've comprehended from the tooltip. Both of us have valid points, and neither of us can say
YOU'RE WRONG
until we hear from people actually producing or testing the numbers in-game.
Post by
skribs
Update
Blizzard "clarified" the tooltip of GOTEM to the following:
Gift of the Earthmother: Redesigned. This talent now increases spell haste by 2/4/6/8/10% and reduces the base global cooldown of Lifebloom by 2/4/6/8/10% instead of its previous effects.
I take this to mean that it provides haste to instants as if it were haste rating (e.g. lowers the GCD) but that it has an additional effect to LB. I will edit the notes above, accordingly, to show the current "GCD" as "Lifebloom/GCD" and the current "Nourish" as "Nourish/GCD".
This change also leads me to believe that an RG based build where you stack spirit and haste (or crit if you prefer) would be very powerful, as Rejuv is getting nerfed and RG is getting buffed.
I also find it wierd that they'd do this, because most people are likely to try and get Rejuv to a 1.0 sec GCD, at which point the additional effect on lifebloom is pointless.
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