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How to Druid: Moonkin PvE 101 (WotLK)
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Post by
260787
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Post by
Gemily
As
Starfall
hits directly and Wrath has a travel time, the time considered for each to result in a strike is roughly the same. I judge this by the fact that at maximum range at 400 haste cap, it is possible to have 2 wrath casts travelling at once before the first one hits. at ~1.3 second cast time for Wrath that makes the cast time to crit ocurring time nearly the same. With Starfire having a greater crit chance than Wrath, it seems reasonable to assume that Starfire has a greater chance to proc Eclipse first. Also remember that not everyone has the WiseEclipse addon yet. (I dont myself tbh) I will check it out when I do the addons section.
I didnt know that about the tier sets thanks for the info
Starfire, not Starfall. You've done that several times in arguing your point. Sorry that just drove me crazy for some reason.
First off, congratulations for completing this so quickly.
Also I'm still not seeing the argument for Starfire proccing Eclipse being faster. Yes it might have a higher crit rate, but unless it procs off the very first cast, then you wasted time.
Example, my wraths are a 1 second cast time, and my Starfires are 2 seconds. Unless my Starfire procced Eclipse the first time, then by the time I've cast my second Starfire, I could have cast 4 wraths, greatly increasing my chance of proccing Eclipse.
Personally, if you're going to write the guide that hundreds of little baby moonkins look to for answers, you need to incorporate proven theories, not personal opinion. Or at
least
add the second argument. Kind of like you did for Typhoon, I know you're a hater of it being in a raid talent build, yet you added it, I'm assuming because so many of us have given you specific instances where it can be used.
My 2 cents
Post by
murakaz
As Starfall hits directly and Wrath has a travel time, the time considered for each to result in a strike is roughly the same. I judge this by the fact that at maximum range at 400 haste cap, it is possible to have 2 wrath casts travelling at once before the first one hits. at ~1.3 second cast time for Wrath that makes the cast time to crit ocurring time nearly the same. With Starfire having a greater crit chance than Wrath, it seems reasonable to assume that Starfire has a greater chance to proc Eclipse first. Also remember that not everyone has the WiseEclipse addon yet. (I dont myself tbh) I will check it out when I do the addons section.
The discrepancy in travel time is made up by the ability to start using Eclipsed Starfires sooner via Nature's Grace proc'ing upon the end of Wrath's cast, and as Mr. Curly stated already the crit chance is close enough to not make enough of a difference.
As for WiseEclipse, if you have the 2-piece tier-8 bonus, it's worth about 150 to 200 dps depending on your Eclipse up-time.
Post by
Gemily
Also on the Earth and Moon explanation you missed the debuff it adds to the target, and only stated that it increases spell damage.
Post by
241152
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Post by
340332
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Post by
340332
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Post by
Gemily
I think it would be perfectly acceptable to write something along the lines of
"The recommended rotation is Wrath to Eclipse, but based on personal preference it's acceptable to Starfire until Eclipse if you find that works better for you"
Ta-da! Everyone's happy.
Post by
curlymon
You did not account for E&M's adjustment to the damage. Which is in favor of Solar actually.
Damage leading into Lunar eclipse = 3k + (2 x 3.39k) + (2 x 6.78k) + 3% granted by IIS = 24.04k
Damage leading into Solar Eclipse = 6k + 6.78k + 13.56k = 26.34k
DPS leading into proc:
23.34/6.75 = 3.46k dps Lunar
26.34/7.5 = 3.51k dps Solar
Nor did you account for the gained time in only casting 1 extraneous Wrath rather then 1 extra Starfire, since it is bad to /stopcast.
DPS leading into proc + extra (crit modified):
extra W = (3.39*1.4) * 1.03 = ~4.89
extra SF = 6.7*1.43 = ~9.58
28.23/7.75 = 3.64k dps
35.92/9.5 = 3.78k dps
You also missed the effect of popping Starfall as a lead in on DPS as it's practically going to cause NG to be up 100% of the time. Initial cast of either is non-hasted.
Time to proc = (1 x 1.25) + (3 x 1) + 1 = 5.25 sec
Lunar
Time to proc = 2.5 + (2 x 2) = 6.5 sec
Solar
28.23/6.25 = 4.52k dps
35.92/8.5 = 4.23k dps
You also ignored the effect of WiseEclipse once past the initial eclipse procing, and it's effect of increasing your time within the eclipse proc by effectively removing SF spam at the end of Lunar when going into Solar. To tired to model this right now.
Also the GCD is always the same time as Wrath, until Wrath drops below 1 second cast time.
Edit:
Until WiseEclipse was released the most efficient way to start off your rotation was to:
Spam cast Wrath until you saw NG proc
Immeadiately swap to SF.
Midway through the SF cast you would see if Lunar Proc'd and would follow up with more SF's allowing you to "possibly" squeeze a whole extra SF into the Lunar Proc. If you did not see Lunar Proc you would go back to Wrath Spam as the SF could possibly Kick off the Solar Eclipse.
Edit2:
The reduced time to get into Lunar Eclipse and the saved time of going from Lunar to Solar is the real reason to be starting with Lunar. Dps up till then is nice and does lean in favor of Lunar but only slightly. The gains come from getting Eclipse up faster and moving from eclipse to eclipse faster. The more time we spend in Eclipse the more damage.
Post by
MegaVolt
If you refresh just after the penultimate tick, the time between ticks is only slightly altered, and dps loss is minimal. It is if anything a slight mana loss. You still get a tick pretty close to when you would have done. The up keep of ticks isnt so much about the damage they do anyway but more about the extra damage effects they afford Wrath and Starfaire during their duration.
Yes, if you refresh right after the tick then the damage loss on the DoT itself is minimal. However, you will be cutting your DoT at least 3 seconds short then, if you refresh earlier then even more. This means you have to cast it more often which means you are wasting GCDs which is a clear DPS loss.
That's why you don't want to refresh DoTs early, no matter if they just ticked or not.
There is just one exception: If Eclipse isn't active then it might be a good idea to refresh a DoT early so that you don't need to refresh it during the Eclipse proc since refreshing it then would be an even greater dps loss then refreshing it early.
Post by
340332
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Post by
Kaitain
Therefore the reccomendationtion should be that everyone use wise eclipse...
It should yes.
Post by
murakaz
So basically what youre saying is that the rotation leading into Lunar is optimal
if you are using WiseEclipse
, which quite obviously not everyone is or will be? Therefore the reccomendationtion should be that everyone use wise eclipse...
It's been the ideal starting rotation ever since 3.2 was launched, long before Arawethion over at EJ came up with the macro that spawned the add-on. Besides, if you consider yourself a serious raiding Moonkin, using an add-on that gives you a free 150 dps is a no-brainer.
Post by
404185
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Post by
260787
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340332
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260787
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Post by
31275
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260787
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Post by
Kaitain
Glyphing it would be dumb. You'd have to get rid of a different, more useful glyph, which would probably be Starfall. Either way, it's not an optimal choice in an optimal raiding build.
I guess if your tanks can't keep aggro, or aren't good at grabbing mobs then yes, Typhoon has its uses but for an advanced raiding build, I'm under the assumption that you're with an advanced raid which is competant.
Oh and to the OP, you should include which 2 professions are best for DPS. The question comes up a lot.
It's a minor glyph. (Glyph of Monsoon is a different Glyph and clearly for PvP)
And the Typhoon
does
have uses in raids and is very much worth 1 single point imo.
Take ToC as a basic example:
- Beasts - not much use
- Jaraxxus - use on Infernals that have spawned on top of someone
- Champions - Knockback/interupt is useful
- Twins - no use
- Anub - Knockback untankable small adds to prevent debuff stacking on yourself and others. And doing decent damage to them. Instant AoE damage is what you want in that sort of situation.
If you look at where you can put that last talent point its either
- unique utility
- ~0.1% more damage that you probably won't have the skill (or hyper low latency) to leverage anyways, or regen you don't need.
@LesPaul - if you feel any talent points (like Typhoon) will always lead to a tedious and repetitive discussion, just put "Spec + 1" and a brief comment on where the spare point could go.
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