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How to Druid: Moonkin PvE 101 (WotLK)
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Post by
260787
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Post by
420788
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Post by
Kaitain
*Typhoon point of view*
Meh :-) I like it. I use it. I would never recommend to any druid no matter how advanced to not take it, mainly because of the rapid dropoff in usefulness when you get down to the last few points in any PvE balance build. If you look at the big picture, when you are sacrificing utility like Typhoon to get the last <1% increases in DPS performance, you should make absolutely sure your character is in
every
other way maxxed out. f.e. If you skip Typhoon to go 2/3 --> 3/3 impIS (hypothetically speaking), but you have Icewalker on your boots and not Run Speed....... fail :-)
Post by
340332
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404185
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Post by
Gemily
Spell Rotation
Other spells not in the rotation can be incorporated to boost dps...
Starfire
is best cast after Solar Eclipse, leading into Lunar eclipse as there is usually some respite between Eclipse procs, but can also be cast at the srart of the rotation to provide a boost in dps while the DoTs are being set up, and then again every time it is cooled-down. Neither should be cast during an Eclipse proc.
Starfall, not Starfire.
Post by
Gemily
Did some elaborations, clarifications, and a ranking system. I could be way off on the rankings, please correct me if I am.
Talents
I will include here the Balance tree talents, and the Restoration tree talents that are useful to Moonkins.
Rankings will be on a scale of 1-5, and for PvE purposes only. Solo rankings were determined by a low dependency on dots since they are generally not included in a solo rotation.
1 is not very useful and should be skipped if possible
5 is a requirement.
Balance Tree
Tier 1 Talents
Starlight Wrath
: reduces the cast time of Wrath
All cases:5
Genesis
: increases the damage done by DoTs
All cases:1,
at most
, one point could go here instead of moonglow. But that is not recommended.
Tier 2 Talents
Moonglow
: reduces the mana cost of
certain
spells
Raid:2 (only because it is generally accepted that 1 point be placed here as filler)
Dungeon/Undergeared:2-3
Solo:2
Nature's Majesty
: Increases Critical Strike Chance of
certain
spells
All cases:5
Improved Moonfire
: Increases the critical strike chance and damage done by Moonfire
Raid/Dungeon:5
Solo:3
Tier 3 Talents
Brambles
: Increases damage dealt by Entangling Roots, Thorns, and Force of Nature. Also allows opponents to be dazed when they strike the caster or are dealt damage by a treant while Barkskin is active
Raid:1
Dungeon:1
Solo:1-4 Very situational and completely based on your own opinion
Nature's Grace
: Spell critical strikes cause an increase in Spell casting speed
All cases:5
Nature's Splendor
: Increases the duration of DoTs
All cases:5
Nature's Reach
: Reduces threat from balance spells and increases balance spell casting range
Raid/Dungeon:5
Solo:2
Tier 4 Talents
Vengeance
: Increases Critical Strike Damage bonus of
certain
spells, allows Critical Strikes to damage for 200% normal damage rather than 150%
All cases:5
Celestial Focus
: Reduces pushback suffered while casting
certain
spells and increases spell haste
All cases:5
Tier 5 Talents
Lunar Guidance
: Converts a % of intellect into Spell Power
All cases:5
Insect Swarm
: Allows the casting of Insect Swarm
Raid/Dungeon:5
Solo:3
Improved Insect Swarm
: Increases the damage done by wrath on targets afflicted with Insect Swarm and
critical strike chance of starfire to targets afflicted with moonfire
All cases, if you chose Insect Swarm:4-5
Tier 6 Talents
Dreamstate
: Improved Mana regeneration based on % of intellect
All cases:1
Moonfury
: Increases damage done by Starfire, Moonfire, and Wrath
All cases:5
Balance of Power
: Increases your hit chance and reduces damage taken
All cases:5
Tier 7 Talents
Moonkin Form
: Allows you to shapeshift into Moonkin Form. Increases armor contribution, decreases damage taken while stunned, increases your spell critical strike chance as well as all party/raid members spell critical strike chance in range. Also allows spell critical strikes to regenerate mana.
All cases:5
Improved Moonkin Form
: Increases haste granted by Moonkin Aura, and converts a % of your spirit into personal spell power
All cases:5
Improved Faerie Fire
: Improves hit chance by all spells against afflicted target, and improves critical chance of all your spells against afflicted target
Raid/Dungeon:5
Solo:3
Tier 8 Talents
Owlkin Frenzy
: Chance to gain Owlkin Frenzy, increasing damage and mana regeneration and making you immune to spell pushback
Raid/Dungeon:1
Solo:3-4
Wrath of Cenarius
: Increases damage of Wrath and Starfire
All cases:5
Tier 9 Talents
Eclipse
: Chance gain one of two eclipses, either increasing damage done by Wrath or critical strike chance of Starfire
Raid/Dungeon:5
Solo:3-4
Typhoon
: Allows the casting of Typhoon
Raid:2-3
Dungeon:3-4
Solo:5
Force of Nature
: Allows the casting of Force of Nature
All cases:5
Gale Winds
: Increases damage done by Hurricane and Typhoon,also increases range of Cyclone
Raid:3-5 (Based on most raids not having large amounts of trash, and the argument that single target dps is better in a raid scenario)
Dungeon/Solo:5
Tier 10 Talents
Earth and Moon
: Increases all spell damage taken by afflicted target and increases personal spell power
All cases:5
Tier 11 Talents
Starfall
: Allows the casting of Starfall
Raid/Solo:5
Dungeon:3-5 (Even though the bug of pulling extra mobs was mostly fixed, I've still seen it happen. So for the close encounters in dungeons only, you have the option of picking something else
Restoration Tree
Tier 1 Talents
Improved Mark of the Wild
: Increases the effects of Mark/Gift of the Wild and increases all personal attributes
All cases:5
Nature's Focus
: Reduces push back suffered while casting
certain
spells
Raid/Dungeon:1
Solo:3-5
Furor
: Increases Intellect while in Moonkin Form
All cases:5
Tier 2 Talents
Natural Shapeshifter
: Reduces the mana cost of shapeshifting
All cases:5
Tier 3 Talents
Intensity
: Allows % of your mana regeneration to continue even while casting
Raid:2 (It is often recommended to have at least 1 point)
Dungeon:3
Solo:3-4
Undergeared:5
Omen of Clarity
: Allows critical strikes to cause Clearcasting
All cases:5
Master Shapeshifter
: Increases spell damage while in moonkin form
All cases:5
Post by
Gemily
I elaborated a little more in this section, since your argument was for people who couldn't mouse over the link, this actually describes what the spells do instead of just what school of magic they are.
Spells
NB: I am only including Ballance spells, not Restoration spells which can also be used by the moonkin
Please mouseover the the spell names to see the tooltip. This will tell you:
The School of Magic the spell is from
The mana cost of the spell
The range from which the spell can be cast
The cast time of the spell
The amount of damage the spell deals. (this is before spell power is applied)
The duration of the spell if it is a DoT
Damage Spells:
Moonfire
: Causes initial arcane damage and applies a dot
Insect Swarm
: Nature based DoT that also decreases target's chance to hit
Wrath
: A fast casting Nature damage spell
Starfire
: A slower, more powerful Arcane damage spell
Typhoon
:Nature based AoE spell that also knocks targets back
Hurricane
: Powerful nature AoE that requires channeling
Starfall
: Powerful arcane AoE that does not require channeling
Force of Nature
: Summons 3 Treants as pets to fight with you
Movement Impairing spells/Stuns/Debuffs
Entangling Roots
: Nature magic spell, roots target to the ground. Could also be considered a damage spell
Nature's Grasp
: Nature magic spell, applies Entangling Roots instantly when the caster is struck in combat. Could also be considered a buff
Cyclone
: Nature magic spell, stunning the target while making it immune to damage as well
Hibernate
: Nature magic spell, puts beasts/dragonkin to sleep
Soothe Animal
: Nature magic debuff, reduces the distance that beasts and dragonkin will attack you
Faerie Fire
: Nature magic debuff, decreases armour, removes the ability to stealth
Buffs
Mark of the Wild
: Nature magic buff, increases armour and stats
Thorns
: Nature magic buff, causes damage to oponents when they strike someone with the buff
Barkskin
: Natrue magic buff, reduces damage taken and decreases pushback from damage taken while Barksin is active
Innervate
: Nature magic buff, restores mana to the target
Post by
curlymon
I feel the best way to handle Typhoon for the guide itself would be to say that it is a very strong spell and useful in many situations but is by no means a required spell to have.
Some remaining suggestions:
Talents, Talent Builds, Glyphs should be grouped if possible.
Gearing, Chanting, Gemming should be grouped as well.
A math section with lead in text saying that it is only intended for those interested in the math itself and is by no means required to be known.
2t8/2t9 info from my first post in this thread
The enchanting section from the same thread (this is huge as it gives them a lot of choices and shows how that stack up against each other)
Never gem for straight +haste, +crit and only gem straight +hit if you can't reach the cap with sp/hit gems.
The talents under the descriptions section are all level 1 of the talents best to choose the max they can be and show scaling number like Blizz does in the patch notes.
Good guide so far. We've beaten it half to death in many places but that just makes it stronger in the end.
Edit: Added 4-7.
Post by
Gemily
In my above posts I fixed all the rank 1 spells (I think).
As well as covered the Typhoon issue.
Post by
340332
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Post by
Gemily
You could just copy/paste the two sections I re-did (spells and talents), plus mine adds an easy glance ranking system for the talents.
Your descriptions still miss key elements of some of the talents.
Example, Improved Insect Swarm. It increases the critical strike chance of Starfire to targets that are affected by moonfire, not Insect Swarm.
Let us help you Les, I went through and explained all the talents and spells very well and made it very easy to comprehend. Hell copy/paste is a hell of a lot easier than changing them one by one (trust me, I just spent like 30 minutes doing it and spell checking and double checking and....).
Post by
Celdhyrean
Globally an interresting work, here are some comments on parts that stood out to me.
Regarding the EJ dot quote : actually i wouldn't say that there is a debate considering dot refreshing. If you use WiseEclipse, dot refreshing at the end of lunar is a "no".
Else, if we agree that dot refreshing is the way to go during the whole of Eclipse (ie you aren't waiting for the end of Eclipse to refresh), then it is also better shortly before the end : the dot provides a higher dpet than both nukes, realistically for SF (~100% crit rate so RNG has no impact), and only statistically for Wrath (~50% crit rate, ie 1/2 chance to do a lot less and 1/2 to do a little more).
More generally on dot refreshes : even with perfect synchronisation concerning the ticks, you lose the GCD which is the primary limited resource for casters, therefore you lose dps. That being said, it might be a good decision to make depending on circumstances (ie you are moving and have nothing else to do, or there'll be a stun/silence and your dots would expire at the start/middle of it, and so forth)
Builds : people already commented, but while Genesis might be understandable for an aggressive build, Intensity is not and that point should go in Gale Winds. Looking specifically at Anub 25 hard you should indeed max out Gale Winds, but overall in a well geared moonkin talent build you really don't care about Intensity at all.
Stats : spirit only increases mp5 if you are out of combat or have Intensity. As we discussed previously, Intensity is a talent you spec out of (maybe not if all you do is pugging, but that's another topic) so mp5 benefits in combat shouldn't be assumed anymore. Same comment on the description of the Intensity talent.
Glyphs : i don't think you should put IS and Starfall on the same level. In general, IS is the better glyph especially since IS is a spell that you should always cast (for dps puproses or for hit debuff puproses). Starfall can shine if aoe phases line up nicely with the reduced CD, but isn't worth as much on single target (still the second best 3rd glyph).
From what i hear on EJ about Anub 25 hm moonkins, the 1min CD on Starfall isn't that practical even there (though there's probably not much else to take if you are asked to unglyph IS).
Gemming : i actually tend to consider that +5sp yellow sockets are worth gemming the color if you are going with epic gems (this isn't true for blue ones or for items with several yellow sockets). This is basically tied to the fact that we went from :
19sp vs 9sp + 8 rating (with rare gems)
to : 23sp vs 12sp + 10 rating
Before, you had more than twice the spell on the red version, now it's less than twice the spell, ie the orange version now has 2 more sp relatively to what the rare version had.
This changes the old decision we had (where indeed +5sp sockets weren't worth it) to a case where gemming for yellow sockets might be worth it. Typically you'll be comparing 6sp to 10 rating which is generally a good deal.
(edit : seems curlymon already commented on that in the 2nd page too, with more details)
WiseEclipse : might be usefull to add that this addon really works when you are near to the crit cap for SF (90% is fine too but there'll be time when you'll have to backtrack and lose the fast switch to wrath right as the proc starts as a consequence). This is mainly true if you have 2T8 or if you have high level ToC gear (and should become almost easy in T10 gear)
Rotation : What we basically want is to maximise dot use and eclipse uptime. Lunar is faster to proc (statistically), and with WiseEclipse allows a smooth transition into solar (which is lost if you start with solar). On the other hand, starting with lunar might make you lose the first MF before being able to extend it with a bit of bad luck.
Overall and with the gear coming in, i'd keep starting with lunar because the chance of losing MF is so low and the other advantages are quite nice as well.
Hell the original Moonkin Guide by Celd can be placed inside of a single post despite its size. No, or at least it couldn't when i wrote it. (which caused me a number of problems when i tried to add stuff afterwards as i had packed the posts a bit too near the limits, so as an advice for people wrriting guides, stay away from the limits so that you don't have to rearrange full sections afterwards)
That you switch spells immediately after Eclipse is proccedThat's a bad assumption which heavily favors solar. You will cast an SF into the first seconds of solar unless you arelucky (ie planned a dot refresh at that point and thus have time to see the proc) or use WiseEclipse (which makes starting with solar bad because it forces you to miss one such smooth switch).
You'll also cast a wrath or 2 in the first seconds of lunar (unless you start gambling with the NG announcement) but it gives you more chances to plan a dot refresh, movement, CD use or whatever else than in the solar case. Which makes lunar equal (bad luck) to better (in most circumstances)
(reading fruther i see that your post actually still reaches the right conclusion with unfavorable hypothesises, so my point changes from a fix to just adding a precision :p Also, Curlymon went into the full detail already ! Bah.)
Typhoon : there were some comments on it in the answers. Basically, yes Typhoon is better than Hurricane per GCD, as an aoe damage spell. The problem is that it's limited by it's cooldown (ie in heavy aoe phases you generally will only be able to cast it once) and that taking it might prevent you from taking talents wich will objectively end up being worth more. Still very nice if you have to move at some point.
Post by
Celdhyrean
Always refresh as soon as the DoT ends, regardless of whether Eclipse is up, except if it is at the very end and will stop you casting the SF that would proc the next eclipse. Then wait untill after the spell to refresh.
The answer really depends on a few things.
Do you have 2t9 or the triumph idol (and you should)? If so, always refresh MF as soon as it drops.
Do you have iIS? If so, always refresh IS as soon as it drops unless you're in Lunar Eclipse in which case you can wait til it ends.No, you always want to refresh both dots even during Eclipse, the only exception being the end of lunar IF you have WiseEclipse.
You can try it out with SimulationCraft or DPET or whatever other means (or through the cast sequence priority Arawethion recently put up on EJ), but dots are always worth refreshing, even during Eclipse. iIS has mostly nothing to do with that decision, so there's nothing to differentiate MF and IS depending on the Eclipse proc either.
Appart from Wise Eclipse, the only other exception to refresh dots when they fall would be when you know that you'll have to move soon, but that's quite difficult to take into account in a guilde since it'll be very encounter dependant..
Post by
hashmel
your 3rd talent build link, "Starter Raiding Build" isn't working
here's my take on a general boomkin blueprint, the player in question can properly spec based on their personal needs and preferences without having to consult someone about when they should respec to something else using a simple checklist of sorts
BOOMKIN
53/0/11+5
is the basic blueprint for a good boomkin
if you need typhoon for soloing, occasional pvp, certain fights (gluth), or just in case put one of the spare points into it
if you need mana regen invest in intensity as needed
if you need more mana regen invest in dreamstate as needed
if you need more aoe dps invest in gale winds
if you have nothing left to invest in put the leftovers in imp IS or brambles for a slight single target dps boost
Glyphs
Moonfire
is a must for pve as you'll always have at least 1 target and it's easily the best single target dps boost
Focus:
both an aoe and single target glyph, makes SF safer to use if you've yet to get the hang of the range and also increases the damage
Starfall:
both an aoe and single target glyph, reduces the cd by 1/3
Insect Swarm:
sacrifices the 3% miss debuff in favor of 30% more IS damage
Starfire:
less time spent refreshing MF meaning more time spent melting face
Innervate:
if you have no mana your dps will drop to zero, good for beginning boomkins with mana issues
If you've specced Typhoon it's for a useful knockback or @#$%ing off the tank, in an aoe situation another Hurricane is a much better call and glyphing out of the knockback ruins any attempt to annoy the tank making glyph of Typhoon a poor choice for either reason
Post by
Gemily
Isn't Moonglow technically a better "mana regen" talent that dreamstate?
If so, then wouldn't number 3 on Hash's list be "invest in moonglow as needed"?
I thought Dreamstate came in dead last in priority of mana regen talents?
Post by
340332
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Post by
hashmel
OoC > Intensity > Dreamstate > Moonglow
moonglow would only be more mana efficient than others if you stacked a ton of haste as it saves 3/6/9% of the spell cost each cast
generally this is the weakest mana longevity talent we have and shouldn't bother investing more than 1 talent into it to advance to tier 3 talents
Post by
340332
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Post by
260787
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