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Sylvanas being 'evil'

Post by 4dehorde

In short, no I do not believe Sylvanas is evil or insane or anything of the like. On the contrary, I believe Varian and now Jaina to bee darker in terms of character than her. I also believe any claims of the Forsaken being evil as a whole to be horribly inaccurate.

Lady Sylvanas has genuine respect for her people and the Sin'dorei as numerous texts and quests show. Her singing of Lament of the Highborne shows she still feels affection for her former homeland and her murdered people. I believe to classify her and the Forsaken as evil simply for killing humans in Lordaeron to be a pretty poor excuse to be honest. The Scarlet Crusade attempted outright genocide on them and I am glad they are down to their last remnants in MoP. And be honest, Alliance humans aren't exactly welcoming the Forsaken with milk and cookies either. The common paranoia fear of undead is all of them are the same, mindless killing machines. Numerous sources, including an old quest from a tortured and dying Forsaken civilian named Vorrel Sengutz render such claims mute. The man clearly loved his wife, Monika, and her reaction when you bring the news of his death says she felt the same for him.

Have the Forsaken done questionable things? Of course they have. The entire concept of the New Plague was by itself controversial, though I won't deny I support its use in war against the Scourge and later the Alliance. Also experimenting on living people in the Apothecarium is something I always found to be detestable, but Scarlet Crusaders tortured Forsaken prisoners in the Monastery, so I can understand the Forsaken desire for revenge. I will not lie, I loved killing Isillien in the old quest with Tirion that was removed in Cata. Not just because he killed Taelan just as the boy was being redeemed, but for all the horrors he committed against both the undead and the living.

Furthermore, the Scarlet and Alliance standpoint that the Forsaken must be wiped out entirely is all the reason I believe the Forsaken need to expunge the Alliance and remaining human forces from Lordaeron. Strategically I believe it is a smart move on their part. Since Varian started the war during the Battle for the Undercity, why not? Having enemy positions inside your territory and within striking distance of your capital city and homeland is never accepted in times of war, and any civilization on Azeroth would agree I believe. While the atrocities committed against the prisoners kept at the Sludge Fields was reprehensible, Forsaken authorities have the warden executed once he is found out. You even get the option to let surviving humans go in one of the quests there, or bash their heads in with a shovel. The choice is ultimately up to the player. I personally let them go, even when questing as a Forsaken.

While I don't entirely agree with the Invasion of Gilneas, it must be remembered it wasn't Sylvanas' idea, at least not entirely. She was acting on Garrosh's orders. Besides, the Forsaken have been involved with skirmishes against worgen in Silverpine for years now. While that does not necessarily justify invasion of a neutral kingdom, it reasons that at least some Forsaken have had bitter feelings towards the worgen for awhile now and vice-versa.

Also, at the end of the newer Silverpine quests one has to admit Sylvanas does honor her word and let Lorna leave with her father unharmed and pull back her forces in exchange for him, Crowley, doing the same. If she were truly a fully evil and insane villain, I think she would have double-crossed him, but she didn't.

I also think to blame Sylvanas and any other loyalist Forsaken for the Wrathgate is unfounded. While she did authorize the creation of the New Plague, she never called for its use on the Horde, or even the Alliance, at least not until the Alliance-Horde War began. Varimathras, Putress, and their cronies were all traitors and got what they deserved. Blaming those not involved in their plot is not justified in my eyes. One cannot rightfully condemn an entire nation or people for the actions of some of their members, or in this case former members, in my opinion.

In the new starter quests for Forsaken in Deathknell, we see that while the Val'kyr are raising new undead, unlike the Scourge where they are forced to serve, they are given a choice whether or not they wish to join the Forsaken. Those who do not wish to are allowed to go their own way or even return to the grave if they choose to. A free existence no Scourge was ever afforded.

Also Sylvanas does join Lor'themar in sending ships and soldiers to assist Voljin's rebellion against Garrosh, and while she does hint her disdain to having to follow Vol'jin's orders once he becomes Warchief, it cannot be denied she did have a role in dethroning Garrosh and therefore, at least in her own way, helping to restore the Horde's honor.

In short, I believe the Forsaken to be more along the lines of chaotic good than any classification of evil. They do questionable and sometimes wrong things yes, but for the right reasons overall, all in the interest of self-preservation and defense of their homeland.

Post by oneforthemoney

I find it really hard to see the Forsaken as very sympathetic when they were burying people up to their necks and letting ghouls eat their faces, or having you kill them with a shovel.

Post by morginar

I find it really hard to see the Forsaken as very sympathetic when they were burying people up to their necks and letting ghouls eat their faces, or having you kill them with a shovel.

Well to be fair, that was the work of Stillwater, and he is a rogue who was supposed to work on farming.

He is no more forsaken than argent dawn are scarlet crusaders.

Post by Atik

I find it really hard to see the Forsaken as very sympathetic when they were burying people up to their necks and letting ghouls eat their faces, or having you kill them with a shovel.

Along with Morg, I do want to point out that the last point is done of your own decision. Noone tells you to do anything with the people in the ground, your character just grabs the shovel and gets to work.

However, if we want to go with what terrible things Sylvannas has done, let's take a second to look them over.

Shortly after breaking free from Arthas, she took complete charge of the Forsaken, creating a monarchy as her Queen. She then aligned with the humans, and was admittedly forced to work with a total &*!@#$, and stabbed him in the back before he could stab her. She then enslaved a Dreadlord, forcing him to kill his former allies and more or less making him her secretary. It was then she approved research into a Bio-Weapon of Mass Destruction, a plague capable of killing the living and the dead. And then she aligned with the Blood Elves and freaking met Lor'Themar (who?), and when some poor Blood Elf adventurer brought her a locket, she lost her ^&*! on him/her and broke out into a musical number.

Them comes Wrath, where it starts getting interesting. Quick note, this is only things we KNOW Sylvannas did, so no Wrathgate conspiracies here. When Puttress betrays her, she immediately goes on a rampage, slaughtering her own people by the dozens. With the threat dealt with, she allows the Horde to place her city under what is effectively martial law, with the Kor'Kron patrolling every street. (And they're doing a damn fine job, as you can clearly see while walking around Undercity. Must be union workers.)

And then, and here we go. Tirion kills Arthas.

Sylvannas and the entire Forsaken race had one single driving goal. They were literally an undead machine working towards one endgame: to kill the Lich King. And Tirion swoops in and takes that from them.

Sylvannas, broken, recruits scourge remnants, including the Val'kyr. Her entire purpose in life lost, she seeks to increase her population. She offers newly raised Forsaken a choice. They can join or leave. With her forces newly bolstered, she is able to go on the offensive again; the Forsaken march south, their bio-weapon now a staple of their arsenal.

Sylvannas, reliant on several tools to continue her expansion, lies to Garrosh and the rest of the Horde and continues using the Blight, raising Undead, and making use of the Val'Kyr. She takes Gilneas, but allows the Gilneans to retreat with their remaining forces in tact, including allowing Crowly to save his daughter. She slaughters Southshore and other towns in her way, only stopping at Arathi.

And then she marches on the Plaguelands, waging war with the Alliance again and eventually taking several pieces of territory. Evidently, this is the last we've really seen of her. But, on this note, I do want to bring one thing up.

At no point does the Argent Crusade step in to stop her in the Plaguelands. They are more than willing to let the Forsaken reclaim that territory, even when it means they are raising their fallen foes to aid them.

Post by morginar

At no point does the Argent Crusade step in to stop her in the Plaguelands. They are more than willing to let the Forsaken reclaim that territory, even when it means they are raising their fallen foes to aid them.

The argents are rather tolerant with necromancy, the ebon blade where raising ghouls from dead scarlets to use as canon fodder as a daily quest.

And I'm not sure why the argents should complain on alliance/horde invading scourge land and claim it as their own. Considering they did the same in northrend.

Post by Rankkor

I find it really hard to see the Forsaken as very sympathetic when they were burying people up to their necks and letting ghouls eat their faces, or having you kill them with a shovel.

Come on now, that was done by Stillwater who was NOT acting under forsaken orders, he was a criminal of the Undercity, making him the forsaken equivalent of the Defias. Surely you don't think the defias actions are endorsed and approved by Stormwind right? same goes for Stillwater.

And as Atik said, once stillwater is disposed of, what to do with the human hostages is up to the player, they give you a shovel, and you can either kill them, or dig them out, at no point you're forced one way or the other, and you're not chastised either for any of your choices.

At no point does the Argent Crusade step in to stop her in the Plaguelands. They are more than willing to let the Forsaken reclaim that territory, even when it means they are raising their fallen foes to aid them.

There are two reasons for this. Three actually.

First one is that as Morg said, they're tolerant on necromancy, since they allied with the Knights of the Ebon Blade. And forsaken don't mind-control the people they raise. Everyone they raise is given the choice to join the forsaken, or walk away freely. Anyone they raise in the plaguelands can easily just walk over yonder and join the Argent Crusade, they have plenty of undead among their ranks.

Second one is that the northern regions of lordaeron (namely, the eastern and western plaguelands) are no-man's land. Its up for grabs. For years it USED to belong to the citizens of Lordaeron, until the scourge came, now the scourge is (mostly) gone, and this is basically free land, so finder's keepers. They grabbed their own part but they wont battle the forsaken nor battle the alliance because they wish to remain neutral. If they aid one side, they automatically alienate the other side, and their main directive is to battle the bigger threats on azeroth. When the next villain comes aknocking the Crusade knows they're the ones who are gonna be stuck as mediators between the two sides, or else they'll come to blows again.

And they can't do that if they blatantly aid one side against the other. So yeah, they're letting the alliance and horde work out their differences on their own, without aiding or hampering either one.

Third one is that the forsaken forces are made of 90% survivors of Lordaeron, who are coming back to take what's theirs. The alliance forces on the other hand are like 99% stormwind, with a teeeeeeeeensy tiny percentage of living lordaeronians. They both have the rights to the land, so duke it out and may the strongest side win.

Post by Adamsm

Post by oneforthemoney

I still think we're moving more away from Azeroth and into Draenor for content. The next expansion will most likely be focused on the greater Gorian Empire alluded to being on a continent across the Barrier Sea.

Post by Atik

You know, after that narm filled wagnstastic scene in War Crimes....I just can't take Sylvanas seriously anymore. So, she'll end up as a villain some day, but on that day she'll grow a long black handle bar mustache, will twirl it endlessly and cackle about how those lousy kids ruined her scheme.

So basically every Blizzard Villain?

Sylvanas being 'evil'

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