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Why is there no love for the Draenei
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Post by
Monday
A member of almost any race can learn the tricks necessary to become a skilled rogue. Still,
for the tauren
and draenei, such a profession is an alien concept and therefore rare (if not non-existent) among those peoples.
Tauren and draenei races are the only races that do not have rogues because they believe that the methods of the rogues are "dishonorable," and it is difficult to be stealthy when you have hooves
It takes a lot to become a master of stealth, poison and all.
Nin nin.
tsts, yor ignorance suprices me. Still, as no one has seen them, some people mistaken tauren rogues for non-existant
They often hide in cherry trees...
Post by
418663
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Because the only ones are rogue, druid and warlock; and there is no intent for another horde race to become druids, rogues don't fit the Draenei racial profile, and Warlock sure as heck don't.
Post by
KaptainKrunk
They didn't get any new classes because they got too many when introduced
They had 5, then 6 when Wrath came out.....
I think you mean they had 6 during BC and then 7 after Wrath.
hold on a minute guyz, are u forgeting blood elf? they did exactly same thing that the draenei did.
they started off 6 in the BC w/o warrior, 7 in wrath plus DK and it will be 8 including warrior in catalysm.
so why there is a reason for draenei do the same thing as the BE do? b'cos both goblins and worgen had started off 8 in to-be-released catalysm, and tauren had 2 addition classes (paladin and priest) while the other existing races (except draenei) with 1.
Blood Elves are getting Warriors, something every class should be able to due, lorewise or not.
Let's see a 7 foot space goat with hooves walk around silently. Not to mention their beliefs and faith look completely opposite of mercenaries and poisons with dirty tactics, and foul play.
Post by
491920
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
the real reason they cant be rogues is because truens cant so an alliance race could not be a rouges either
not really... The only reason is because tauren are the biggest race and have hooves. Not to mention their society abhors it.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
hold on a minute guyz, are u forgeting blood elf? they did exactly same thing that the draenei did.
they started off 6 in the BC w/o warrior, 7 in wrath plus DK and it will be 8 including warrior in catalysm.I agree that if draenei don't get a new class, neither should blood elves. Warrior being "basic" is irrelevant; it could just as easily be argued that a class with the ability to stealth, one way or another, is "basic."
Then again, IMO, the expansion pack should have been either new classes for all existing races,
or
new races (with
seven
options each).
Post by
Adamsm
Goblins: All classes but Pally and Druid
Worgen: All Classes but Shaman and Pally
8 Each for them, 8 each for Human, Blood Elves, Trolls and Dwarves
7 Each for Orcs, Gnomes, Taurens, Night Elves, Undead, Draenei
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Goblins: All classes but Pally and Druid
Worgen: All Classes but Shaman and Pally
8 Each for them, 8 each for Human, Blood Elves, Trolls and Dwarves
7 Each for Orcs, Gnomes, Taurens, Night Elves, Undead, DraeneiAs I see it, gnomes are getting shorted, as they will have the least number of classes.
But draenei—who are alone out of all the races both in having no classes that can stealth, and in not getting at least one new option—are getting
shafted
. (Especially seeing as they've gotten pretty much no lore development since the middle of BC.)
And...gnomes are
not
more entitled.
Post by
Adamsm
The Draenei aren't broke; the classes they have now are just fine for them, and the other ones; druid and rogue have no standing for them, and they'll never be warlocks.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
The Draenei aren't broke; the classes they have now are just fine for them, and the other ones; druid and rogue have no standing for them, and they'll never be warlocks.Again: blood elves, humans, and trolls weren't "broke" either. In fact, all three arguably had their bases covered
more
thoroughly than draenei.
Druid could be justified fairly easily. Rogues could be explained off as "warrior monks." The only class which is outright inappropriate (not to mention redundant in terms of its functionality) is warlock.
Post by
Adamsm
The Draenei aren't broke; the classes they have now are just fine for them, and the other ones; druid and rogue have no standing for them, and they'll never be warlocks.Again: blood elves, humans, and trolls weren't "broke" either. In fact, all three arguably had their bases covered
more
thoroughly than draenei.
Druid could be justified fairly easily. Rogues could be explained off as "warrior monks." The only class which is outright inappropriate (not to mention redundant in terms of its functionality) is warlock.
If you call them warrior monks.... their not rogues. Draenei don't really have the mind set for Rogues, and they aren't in tune with true Nature to become Druids; their Shamans yes, but that was the Spirits contacting them, and those are far different from the Druids.
So, really, the Draenei had access to the most classes for both BC and Wrath, it's time for the other's to play catch up.
Post by
418663
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
So, really, the Draenei had access to the most classes for both BC and Wrath, it's time for the other's to play catch up.
its actually both draenei and blood elves had access to the most classes for both BC and wrath, which is 7.But BE started to take the lead from draenei with warrior included, make it to 8 accessable classes, which is the same number as both of the new races, goblins and worgen.
8 Each for them, 8 each for Human, Blood Elves, Trolls and DwarvesThem too. But, again, the remaining three classes do not fit into the Draenei mythos, so it's better to keep them out then do yet another retcon to the draenei race.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
If you call them warrior monks.... their not rogues. If they're
functionally
rogues, it doesn't really matter what they're called.
Draenei don't really have the mind set for Rogues, and they aren't in tune with true Nature to become Druids; their Shamans yes, but that was the Spirits contacting them, and those are far different from the Druids.Draenei have so little lore development that one can't really
make
statements like that.
So, really, the Draenei had access to the most classes for both BC and Wrath, it's time for the other's to play catch up.Humans and trolls needed to "catch up" to draenei? They had just as many classes, and will have
more
after Cata.
Them too. But, again, the remaining three classes do not fit into the Draenei mythos
What
"draenei mythos?" Draenei are basically an original Blizzard creation (one of a very few, to tell the truth), and their lore—as I've mentioned—is undeveloped. Again: the only class which should really be ruled out is warlock.
so it's better to keep them out then do yet another retcon to the draenei race.No, it's not "better," seeing as druid or (if handled well) rogue would not require a "retcon." All it would require is lore development, such as that which is already leading up to tauren priests and paladins.
Post by
Adamsm
If you call them warrior monks.... their not rogues. If they're
functionally
rogues, it doesn't really matter what they're called.
Draenei don't really have the mind set for Rogues, and they aren't in tune with true Nature to become Druids; their Shamans yes, but that was the Spirits contacting them, and those are far different from the Druids.Draenei have so little lore development that one can't really
make
statements like that.
So, really, the Draenei had access to the most classes for both BC and Wrath, it's time for the other's to play catch up.Humans and trolls needed to "catch up" to draenei? They had just as many classes, and will have
more
after Cata.
Them too. But, again, the remaining three classes do not fit into the Draenei mythos
What
"draenei mythos?" Draenei are basically an original Blizzard creation (one of a very few, to tell the truth), and their lore—as I've mentioned—is undeveloped. Again: the only class which should really be ruled out is warlock.
so it's better to keep them out then do yet another retcon to the draenei race.No, it's not "better," seeing as druid or (if handled well) rogue would not require a "retcon." All it would require is lore development, such as that which is already leading up to tauren priests and paladins.
Fine; let's go over the main points of the Draenei race: 25 thousand years ago, the ran into the Legion, 80% of the race joined up, the remaining 20% under the leadership of Velen, ran for the hills with help of the Naaru. For the next 22 thousand years, they flee from planet to planet, and watch as corruption and destruction follows them, seeing those who sheltered them either wiped out or converted to Legion forces. 2 thousand or so years ago(200 orc generations), they crash land on Draenor, make friends with the natives and live in peace, till the Legion comes again and corrupts the Orc, causing the Draenor war which wipes out 80% of the Exiles. After that point, the fel corruption of the planet begins to affect the Draenei, transforming about 30% of them into Broken, and those groups split up into 3: Those who follow the Spirits, those who want revenge and follow Akama, and those who devolve further into the Lost ones.
Now, your first thought; the Draenei Rogues: There are rogue Draenei already in game.... but nearly every single one of them are Broken; and they either belong to the Ashtongues(who are our enemies for most of BC) or they belong to the Lost Ones; those insane creatures who went made so by the Fel. So, I really doubt player draenei will ever become a rogue class as that means they will walk down the same path as their insane Cousins.
Druids: Won't happen; the Draenei are beings of the Light first and foremost, not Nature, and they have never even met a druidic race(at this point in the lore) till the Night Elves. They are not like the Trolls, where the Shatterspear tribe(the tribe responsible for bringing in troll druids) lived near Moonglade for an untold number of years, learning the power of the Druids from them. As it stands now, in game time, the Draenei have only known the Elves for 3 years, and it took Malfurion almost 10 to learn the first steps of Druidism.
As for the Retcon: The retcon is one of the single largest changes in Blizzard Lore: Before BC, two races were responsible for the fall of Sargeras: The Dreadlords.... and The Eredar. Since BC, where it has been retconned that the Eredar was tempted by the Shining One(Sargeras), and they split in two.
So, well in theory it wouldn't be that big of Retcon.... the Draenei themselves have been in a constant state of changing Lore since their addition as a player class. I love my Draenei Race, and I do not want to see them Changed AGAIN! just because people are whining that they have no stealth class; News flash, other then Tauren Druids, neither do the big cows.
Note: Nothing against you Farseerlolotea, but I take my Draenei lore very seriously.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Fine; let's go over the main points of the Draenei race: 25 thousand years ago, the ran into the Legion, 80% of the race joined up, the remaining 20% under the leadership of Velen, ran for the hills with help of the Naaru. For the next 22 thousand years, they flee from planet to planet, and watch as corruption and destruction follows them, seeing those who sheltered them either wiped out or converted to Legion forces. 2 thousand or so years ago(200 orc generations), they crash land on Draenor, make friends with the natives and live in peace, till the Legion comes again and corrupts the Orc, causing the Draenor war which wipes out 80% of the Exiles. After that point, the fel corruption of the planet begins to affect the Draenei, transforming about 30% of them into Broken, and those groups split up into 3: Those who follow the Spirits, those who want revenge and follow Akama, and those who devolve further into the Lost ones.All accurate...
Now, your first thought; the Draenei Rogues: There are rogue Draenei already in game.... but nearly every single one of them are Broken; and they either belong to the Ashtongues(who are our enemies for most of BC) or they belong to the Lost Ones; those insane creatures who went made so by the Fel. So, I really doubt player draenei will ever become a rogue class as that means they will walk down the same path as their insane Cousins.Again: they could be "warrior monks" who are "rogues" only for the purpose of game mechanics. (A concept put forward at the hellhole that is the official forums involved the phrase "kind of like Lamont Cranston.")
Druids: Won't happen; the Draenei are beings of the Light first and foremost, not Nature, and they have never even met a druidic race(at this point in the lore) till the Night Elves. They are not like the Trolls, where the Shatterspear tribe(the tribe responsible for bringing in troll druids) lived near Moonglade for an untold number of years, learning the power of the Druids from them. As it stands now, in game time, the Draenei have only known the Elves for 3 years, and it took Malfurion almost 10 to learn the first steps of Druidism.
And yet, the worgen apparently learn it by osmosis. But that's a separate rant.
What this seems like to me is a certain insidious fan belief raising its head: Namely, the notion that draenei, as a culture, are essentially shallow and narrow-minded. Yes, they're long-lived. Yes, they're devout. However, they're also inquisitive and conscientious, and have shown an acceptance of syncretism. It's not as if druidism contradicts the Holy Light faith in any way (there are druids in the Argent Crusade). It seems completely reasonable that it could fall under the heading of "many are the paths to the Light..."
As for the Retcon: The retcon is one of the single largest changes in Blizzard Lore: Before BC, two races were responsible for the fall of Sargeras: The Dreadlords.... and The Eredar. Since BC, where it has been retconned that the Eredar was tempted by the Shining One(Sargeras), and they split in two.Which has been vastly blown out of proportion by the fanbase. It was a single throwaway line in the WCIII game manual. Comparable to any one of the several minor retcons behind worgen, really—or Anduin Lothar being killed in single combat rather than in an orc ambush.
So, well in theory it wouldn't be that big of Retcon.... the Draenei themselves have been in a constant state of changing Lore since their addition as a player class. I love my Draenei Race, and I do not want to see them Changed AGAIN! just because people are whining that they have no stealth class; News flash, other then Tauren Druids, neither do the big cows.
That's just the thing: It wouldn't necessarily be a "retcon" at all. (Unless one is to regard
any
further development in their lore as a "retcon.")
I hardly think it's "whining" (which implies complaining out of sheer petulance rather than actual interest) to point out that draenei are the only (yes,
only
; see next paragraph) race that have no stealth class. It's a legitimate complaint.
And saying "well, tauren have no stealth class either...except druid" seems tantamount to someone—before the Cata launch, of course—replying to the myriads of gnome healer complaints with "well, orcs have no healing class either...except shaman."
Note: Nothing against you Farseerlolotea, but I take my Draenei lore very seriously.
As do I.
However, here's where we seem to differ: I don't think draenei lore should remain static, especially to the degree that it already
has
. I don't think concern over the retcon (which could have been explained off easily enough, if Blizzard had bothered) should
force
their lore to remain static, especially when that of the other races is growing and evolving. With no new class, we have no guarantee—at least as of this point—that the draenei won't spend yet
another
expansion pack, as I put it, sitting on their tails.
Post by
Adamsm
Again: they could be "warrior monks" who are "rogues" only for the purpose of game mechanics. (A concept put forward at the hellhole that is the official forums involved the phrase "kind of like Lamont Cranston.")It's mainly the Draenei themselves who don't fit the Rogue archtype: Works for themselves, willingly to kill for money, so on and so forth. Yes they could go with a monk... but where does lockpicking and pickpocketing enter into it? As well as some of the more vicious rogue quests.
And yet, the worgen apparently learn it by osmosis. But that's a separate rant.
What this seems like to me is a certain insidious fan belief raising its head: Namely, the notion that draenei, as a culture, are essentially shallow and narrow-minded. Yes, they're long-lived. Yes, they're devout. However, they're also inquisitive and conscientious, and have shown an acceptance of syncretism. It's not as if druidism contradicts the Holy Light faith in any way (there are druids in the Argent Crusade). It seems completely reasonable that it could fall under the heading of "many are the paths to the Light..."
Well, for Gilneas the last bit of lore we hear about them is they blockade themselves behind the Wall. As for the Worgen; that might fall under the natural shapeshifting ability they already possessed. And their were two different breeds of Worgen in Warcraft for a long while; the inter-dimensional beings summoned by the Scythe of Elune, then Argual's Creatures, the ones able to pass on the Worgen Curse through biting/what have you.
It's possible at some point, after spending enough time with the Druids of Azeroth they could learn it; but if they suddenly gave them Druids now, it would be another retcon, to just have them pick it up that fast. It takes time to learn the path of the Druid. And my statement about the shapeshifters still stands heh. As for the Light thing; I don't believe the Draenei are shallow and narrow minded, I mean, they can't be really with the Naaru at their shoulders watching over them.
But while their are Druids in the Argent Crusade... there are also rogues, warlocks, and Blood Elves. The Crusade allows in any and all who wish to fight against the Lich King, regardless of race and faction.
Which has been vastly blown out of proportion by the fanbase. It was a single throwaway line in the WCIII game manual. Comparable to any one of the several minor retcons behind worgen, really—or Anduin Lothar being killed in single combat rather than in an orc ambush.It's more then just the manual; it's in a few different in-game books, and it was part of the 'original' history for the longest time till Blizzard wanted a new race for Alliance. They semi-tied up the loophole; they've said in a few of the new books as well as Rise of the Horde novel that the Draenei ended up encountering the Legion time and again on new worlds they settled, so the whole new races thing for the Legion was wrapped up, but not the Sargeras angle.
That's just the thing: It wouldn't necessarily be a "retcon" at all. (Unless one is to regard any further development in their lore as a "retcon.")
I hardly think it's "whining" (which implies complaining out of sheer petulance rather than actual interest) to point out that draenei are the only (yes, only; see next paragraph) race that have no stealth class. It's a legitimate complaint.
And saying "well, tauren have no stealth class either...except druid" seems tantamount to someone—before the Cata launch, of course—replying to the myriads of gnome healer complaints with "well, orcs have no healing class either...except shaman."All jokes aside, and I don't regard increasing the Lore for them as retcons, only when it goes against their own history. As for the stealth thing, nothing I can say there; I never use it; my rogue is too low level and my druid is a boomer.
However, here's where we seem to differ: I don't think draenei lore should remain static, especially to the degree that it already has. I don't think concern over the retcon (which could have been explained off easily enough, if Blizzard had bothered) should force their lore to remain static, especially when that of the other races is growing and evolving. With no new class, we have no guarantee—at least as of this point—that the draenei won't spend yet another expansion pack, as I put it, sitting on their tails.On that point, I agree completely with you. I'm hoping with the Cata destruction, we'll see new quests and more things dealing with our favorite non-cowman hooved race.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
It's mainly the Draenei themselves who don't fit the Rogue archtype: Works for themselves, willingly to kill for money, so on and so forth. Yes they could go with a monk... but where does lockpicking and pickpocketing enter into it? As well as some of the more vicious rogue quests.And now, we get into the reasons why rogue is my
second
choice...and something of a distant one.
Well, for Gilneas the last bit of lore we hear about them is they blockade themselves behind the Wall.And the fact that no one had left or entered Gilneas—at least, not by land—since the Second War. People were trying to get into Gilneas to get away from the worgen in Silverpine. As for the Worgen; that might fall under the natural shapeshifting ability they already possessed. And their were two different breeds of Worgen in Warcraft for a long while; the inter-dimensional beings summoned by the Scythe of Elune, then Argual's Creatures, the ones able to pass on the Worgen Curse through biting/what have you.But only one of those "breeds" (the cursed ones) even shapeshifted at all, and it wasn't voluntary.
It's possible at some point, after spending enough time with the Druids of Azeroth they could learn it; but if they suddenly gave them Druids now, it would be another retcon, to just have them pick it up that fast.I wouldn't say "retcon," but it might contribute to the complaints about their being a "Mary Sue race." It takes time to learn the path of the Druid.Remember: tauren are supposed to only recently be re-discovering it after generations, and a starting tauren druid is implied to be a complete noob who doesn't entirely know what he or she is doing yet. And my statement about the shapeshifters still stands heh.Not sure how relevant that really is, but... As for the Light thing; I don't believe the Draenei are shallow and narrow minded, I mean, they can't be really with the Naaru at their shoulders watching over them.
But while their are Druids in the Argent Crusade... there are also rogues, warlocks, and Blood Elves. The Crusade allows in any and all who wish to fight against the Lich King, regardless of race and faction.Not sure about rogues, but
Wilfred Fizzlebang
is not actually a member (and Fordring disapproves of him). The blood elves in question all seem to be paladins; while blood elf paladins have a dubious past, it's likely they're held up to
some
sort of moral standard.
Archdruid Lilliandra
, on the other hand, is directly associated with the faction. It's more then just the manual; it's in a few different in-game books, and it was part of the 'original' history for the longest time till Blizzard wanted a new race for Alliance. They semi-tied up the loophole; they've said in a few of the new books as well as Rise of the Horde novel that the Draenei ended up encountering the Legion time and again on new worlds they settled, so the whole new races thing for the Legion was wrapped up, but not the Sargeras angle.The line repeated in the in-game books (which appear to be implied as historical texts)
is
the line from the manual, if I recall correctly.
And by tying up the loophole, I meant actually stating that the story of the eredar corrupting Sargeras was fiction spun up by Kil'jaeden. They don't call him "the Deceiver" for purposes of irony.
On that point, I agree completely with you. I'm hoping with the Cata destruction, we'll see new quests and more things dealing with our favorite non-cowman hooved race.There was quite an active thread on the subject at the gawdawful...ahem, the
official
forums. Unfortunately, we got a lot of trolls—and I don't mean the nice fuzzy Darkspear variety. And people saying "oh, this kind of destruction is nothing new to them."
Post by
Adamsm
It's possible at some point, after spending enough time with the Druids of Azeroth they could learn it; but if they suddenly gave them Druids now, it would be another retcon, to just have them pick it up that fast.I wouldn't say "retcon," but it might contribute to the complaints about their being a "Mary Sue race." Right, and I'd rather that get killed quickly heh.
Also, wow, didn't even realize you could generate hate heh; too bad I wasn't on when that other dude started his anti-you thread.
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