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When do you want MORE melee players in raid?
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Post by
skribs
From perspective of the raid next day it is indeed better to give upgrade to a lowbie. From perspective of the raid next month it is much better to give upgrade to geared person, because if he keeps giving away gear to baddies - he will just go to another guild.
But if after getting caught up that other player is doing comparable DPS, then he's not giving it away to baddies. Also, if you gear up someone who's of comparable skill and then another player leaves, you net the same DPS as you would have if you kept the pre-geared player and the person who's undergeared never got to raid. So it's the same effect either way.
But main raiders in 25-man are usually specced in the spec that provides most dps given their gear, or provides the most buffs for raid (like demo locks, for example).
In my experience, its been that main raiders in 25-mans simply make sure they aren't specced into a bad spec. E.g. while arcane is best and fire is still competitive, most magi don't go frost for raid DPS. They go PvE fire or PvE arcane. I'm not denying that an extra 200 DPS gained by a respec is a bad thing. All I am saying is that there is such thing as a good fire mage.
Post by
NeoBlackheart
I want blizz to make a fight that is almost really just for melee. like all spell damage delt is half damage
Post by
Ippon
We have bad DPS, which is hindering progression. We are trying to recruit better DPS but it takes time, especially to find someone with good DPS and raid awareness who will fit in with this guild.
We can't punish the current bad DPS, because if we sit them then we have another empty slot to fill. Yeah 3.5k is low, but 3.5k > 0, so until we can replace them we're going to bring them.
We can't force the bad DPS to do better, because they're stubborn and think it doesnt matter. So either they continue to do bad DPS or they leave - and bad DPS is the lesser of 2 evils if we have no replacement for them.
Assuming you just need bodies and you're not holding out for top 1% players like we do, I'm sure you could recruit as many as you need without much effort. I've never been in anything but the best guild on my faction/server, so I can't speak from experience directly, but given how long it takes to get a heroic queue for my frost badges, DPS are definitely not in short supply.
Post by
skribs
I'm not saying we just get people who have no raiding experience and a 1900 GS on wow-heroes, who are those commonly complained about in heroics doing 900 DPS. But there are times when those 3-4k players are the best available, so they are the ones who go.
DPS may not be in short supply, but the higher you go you're seeing less and less. I'd say probably over half the people I see in heroics are under 1800, probably 80% are under 2.5k, 95% are under 3k. I know that's just heroics, but its an exponential inverse function of DPS vs. number of people capable of beating that threshold.
Assuming you just need bodies and you're not holding out for top 1% players like we do
This explains a lot. If everyone is playing at the elite level, then min/maxing various specs is what's going to help the raid most. But you will find greater effect in making your weak links significantly better (either by improvement or replacement) than making your strong links slightly better.
Post by
MegaVolt
This explains a lot. If everyone is playing at the elite level, then min/maxing various specs is what's going to help the raid most. But you will find greater effect in making your weak links significantly better (either by improvement or replacement) than making your strong links slightly better.
And you will find the greatest effect in making everyone better as much as you can, no matter if it's from 8k to 8.5k or from 3k to 6k.
Btw there really is no excuse at all to pull less than 5k tank'n'spank (ofc reduced for movement and such) in a raid these days. With plenty of ilvl 232 items available to absolutely everyone who just farms HCs for a day it doesn't even take much skill to pull that (with full raid buffs).
Post by
219211
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
Yes, but who says there is only 1 poorly geared player who uses same type of gear? With your loot distribution policy, the most geared player will get update the last. However they most geared player is the most helpful to the raid. So I find it very unfair, that good player has to pass gear to some baddie.
That's not my loot distribution policy. My policy was if you have 2 players of comparable skill but unequal gear, the player with the lesser gear should get the upgrade. If you have 2 players of combarable gear but unequal skill, the better skilled should get the upgrade.
My current guild is #1 on server and there are always plenty of people who want to join, so you won't be able to join unless you have some ToGC-25 gear, but before I was in guilds that were having issues with players and they would recruit some less geared people. Those people were informed, that for about first month they shouldn't expect to get gear unless it is going to be disenchanted. Which was fine, because there would be plenty of gear dropping that geared people won't need and new raiders will get geared fairly fast.
Your guild is #1 on a server where multiple guilds have ToGC-25. There are realms where even the most progressed guilds haven't even done Faction Champs on ToGC-25. Depending on the realm you're on, things can be vastly different. So why stay on this realm? Friends, the fact it will cost extra $$ to transfer, and simply the fact that people can still enjoy the game progressing through at a pace that isn't the fastest.
Even then, only one guild per realm is #1. You can't base what the vast majority of raiding guilds are capable of based off the #1 guild. You may be in the #5 guild, which is vastly better than #6 but still not in the top 4. Therefore you won't have people "lining up" and you have to do the best with what's handed to you.
I don't know how mage dps works. I think we had 1 affliction lock in ulduar, he was playing this spec because a) he was providing 5% debuff to boss, b) he found that for many fights his dps as affliction was just as good as his dps as destro - so he chose to be lower dps on some fights to provide a valuable buff for raid. Maybe fire has some similar reasoning?
This is my point. According to one of the posts above (I believe by Ippon but it's quite a ways up there), fire magi are better than arcane magi on certain fights. So if your guild is having trouble with those fights, doesn't it make sense for the mage to go fire? Yeah he could dual-spec, but that's assuming he doesn't have a spec for PvP.
Post by
219211
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
But how do you know that those 2 people are of equal skills? For example, I have been raiding on my druid as tank in BC and as resto in WotLK. And I know that at least in healing I am good. But when I try to dps on my druid, situation is quite different - I loose by a lot to a raid boomkin. Yes, his set is more optimized for dps than mine, but we both have equally good tier sets and stat difference isn't nearly as huge as the dps difference.
OK, let's say that maybe I just don't know how to dps. Fine, I have paladin and shaman healers. I am doing very well as pally, but my shaman's healing is mediocre at best - I just can't seem to get a feel of how to heal well as a shammy. Same with tanking - I have no issues with druid or pally, but on DK i don't feel as comfortable.
So you won't know what the skills of 2 dps are until they both have equal gear and you can compare their dps.
Maybe not, but you can still get a pretty good judgement of who knows their class or not by comparing their difference on the meters vs. their difference in skill, and by knowing the players in question. I'm not saying its a perfect system, but for the most part you can get a pretty good judge if someone knows what they're doing.
If you only give gear to the people who already have gear, you will be in a cycle where the rich get richer. Its good if you know they're going to stay, but all guilds have drama. Someone may decide to reroll, server transfer, gquit, or even quit playing the game. If your best geared player does this, then you lose all that gear. That's why loot distribution is key in most guilds.
Not to mention the skilled, undergeared player may leave. My druid walked into raiding on a realm with no gear as a fresh 80. My guild interviewed me, decided I'm probably a good player but I need to get geared. Within two weeks I geared up my druid, and I was the second best healer in the guild. Had they taken your advice and not even bothered to help me, they'd be having problems now. But it paid off - they now have a great healer.
Exactly. There's no reason for a good player to stay on that realm. In fact, I can almost bet you that there are no players doing 8K dps even in the best guild on that server. So a good player will just leave the server as soon as he can. A mediocre player will stay, but we aren't talking about those, are we?
This is about the dumbest thing I've seen on forums in a while. Because someone plays on the realm they originally chose they are a bad player? So what next, because someone chose priest at the character creation page and shadow priests aren't as high DPS, now they're a bad player? Should they reroll a new 80 just so they can do better?
Yeah, maybe I'm not on the best realm. Yeah, maybe I'm not in the best guild. But if you're going to narrow it down like that, then the only non-bad player is the person who can do the highest DPS in the world.
There are players who know their class really well but who are not in the best gear. There are very good raiders that are not in the best guilds. There are realms that are farther behind in progression. Just because a guild isn't the best, or the character itself isn't the best, or the whole realm isn't the best doesn't mean the player on the realm, in that guild, or behind the character is bad.
If we are talking about normal (not progression) raid, it doesn't make any difference if your dps is a little lower on 1 fight and a little higher on another. However if it is a progression kill (meaning that the boss is hard enough that you are trying him for a week or more), than a specific spec may be required (example is Yogg+0 where affliction locks could do crazy damage) and raiders are expected to use spec that is the best for the fight. As an example - 2nd boss of ICC-10. Easy boss, however our problem was that only physical dps in raid were 2 tanks and 1 DK. For that fight DK had to port out to spec from unholy to blood, because without it we just couldn't manage the adds. Also need to know that it was an alt run, so people's gear was far only at 245ilvl level.
This depends on your definition of progression. Is progression downing the boss fastest on your realm? Or is progression managing to get through the harder content? To whom is the progression relative to?
You're getting hung up on the top few percent of progression guilds, the ones who claim realm firsts on older realms - where there's more players who have been playing for longer (both the game itself and those characters). Those realms have bigger guilds who have established themselves. Therefore, it is very easy to recruit new members who are up to par with bursty progression.
On another realm you may have less experienced players, smaller guilds, and simply newer guilds - which means you have none of the advantages of the guilds in the previous paragraph. These guilds aren't bad for having those attributes, in fact I think the GMs of those display more leadership abilities now in that they don't have the resources or intangible assets mentioned above. We don't have a raid full of people who do 8-12k. We have raids full of people who do 4-9k. We have to adjust strategies because some nights we may not have 40 people to pick from, we've got the 25 that showed up.
It's amazing to me what people consider to be a "bad" player. See, here I was thinking it was about knowing your class and spec and having raid awareness. But I guess your skill is determined by what guild you're in and what realm you're on. I guess I can never be a good player because of the mistake I made at the character and realm selection screens. Note that most of this last paragraph was sarcasm.
Post by
Monjaru
But how do you know that those 2 people are of equal skills? For example, I have been raiding on my druid as tank in BC and as resto in WotLK. And I know that at least in healing I am good. But when I try to dps on my druid, situation is quite different - I loose by a lot to a raid boomkin. Yes, his set is more optimized for dps than mine, but we both have equally good tier sets and stat difference isn't nearly as huge as the dps difference. So you're experienced and do well healing. You have less experience and (in terms of the role of dps itself) are not as skilled as the Boomkin. Pretty simple situation really.
OK, let's say that maybe I just don't know how to dps. Fine, I have paladin and shaman healers. I am doing very well as pally, but my shaman's healing is mediocre at best - I just can't seem to get a feel of how to heal well as a shammy. Same with tanking - I have no issues with druid or pally, but on DK i don't feel as comfortable. Same thing. You have skill in healing as a paladin, you don't have that skill when it comes to shaman healing. Therefore, you'd be more likely to obtain new gear on your paladin because you are able to perform well on it. Whereas, on you shaman, you'd be less likely, because you wouldn't make as good use of the gear upgrades as someone who is healing well on the character they are playing.
Same thing with tanking. If you don't have the feel for a class, you're not going to perform well, regardless of it you get the new drop or not. Someone else who is doing well in that role will therefore make better use of the upgrade.
So you won't know what the skills of 2 dps are until they both have equal gear and you can compare their dps. As long as both are competent enough to stay out of fires, and both have their rotation down, and both are able to make use of their class's secondary abilities (in the case of hybrid dps; druids tossing b-rezzes when necessary, innervates and things like that), they will be considered "equal" in skill. How you determine who is more fitting to receive priority in gear distribution is who performs all of these tasks and performs better in their main role, dps.
Exactly. There's no reason for a good player to stay on that realm. In fact, I can almost bet you that there are no players doing 8K dps even in the best guild on that server. So a good player will just leave the server as soon as he can. A mediocre player will stay, but we aren't talking about those, are we? This is true. Which is incredibly sad, really. They're willing to pay money to switch servers... to get into a better guild so they can get into new content a couple weeks sooner? What's up with that?
If we are talking about normal (not progression) raid, it doesn't make any difference if your dps is a little lower on 1 fight and a little higher on another. However if it is a progression kill (meaning that the boss is hard enough that you are trying him for a week or more), than a specific spec may be required (example is Yogg+0 where affliction locks could do crazy damage) and raiders are expected to use spec that is the best for the fight. As an example - 2nd boss of ICC-10. Easy boss, however our problem was that only physical dps in raid were 2 tanks and 1 DK. For that fight DK had to port out to spec from unholy to blood, because without it we just couldn't manage the adds. Also need to know that it was an alt run, so people's gear was far only at 245ilvl level. You're missing the whole point. That comment wasn't directed at you, it was directed at a previous post of Ippon's that established his opinion that any mage who doesn't spec arcane to do a little more dps is just bad. Which is far from true.
Post by
219211
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
I agree with that opinion with a few conditions. In my opinion, if spec A does more damage on every fight compared to spec B and spec B doesn't give raid anything that spec A doesn't give - then any dps who has spec B is a bad dps.
And of course we need to remember that damage of different specs can be gear dependent. It is ok to pley sub-optimal spec if due to gear limitations it does provide higher dps than the best spec, but once the gear is upgraded player should switch to the best spec available.
Eh, at least you agree that there are conditions in which not being the "cookie cutter best spec" doesn't mean you're a bad player.
Exactly. The point was - even if I know how to heal well with 1 class, that doesn't mean I know how to heal with another class. Skribs was suggesting, that it is worth gearing up a skilled player. I am saying that there's no way to know if player is skilled, because even if he is, for example, good at tanking, he may be pretty bad healer.
No, that's not what I'm saying. Let me put this scenario in front of you:
You have 2 DK DPSers. One is in 1800 gear score on wow-heroes, one is in a 2700 gear score. The person with 1800 GS can do 2.8k on a boss fight. The person who is in 2700 can do 4.5k. Who's the better player? Well, anyone can plainly see that one person can do an extra 1.7k. However, in pre-T7 gear (which is the 1800) 2.8k is on the higher end. In T9-9.5 (the 2700) DKs should easily be above 6k, let alone 8k. So it would probably be better to give the gear to the DK who's doing more for the gear level.
This isn't a situation a top-progression guild will face. But it is a situation that MANY guilds will face.
Post by
Monjaru
Exactly. The point was - even if I know how to heal well with 1 class, that doesn't mean I know how to heal with another class. Skribs was suggesting, that it is worth gearing up a skilled player. I am saying that there's no way to know if player is skilled, because even if he is, for example, good at tanking, he may be pretty bad healer. That depends on how you define the phrase "skilled player". Does it simply encompass the player's skill with one class or does it range to their overall knowledge of how the game itself is played? It is, in my opinion, a simple matter to determine whether a player is "skilled" in the game as a whole. It is also very easy to determine whether that person knows how to play their class. It is impossible to tell whether they are any good at other classes without first seeing them play that particular class, but knowing how they fare as another class is irrelevant to giving that person a drop on the character they are using at that moment in time.
This is completely insufficient IMO. Skill of dps is not to run out of void zone. Skill of dps is to determine, if it is safe to finish cast and then run out, or you have to run out now. Skill of dps is to remember to cast some instant cast while you are running from that void zone so that you don't completely loose the time. Skill of dps is to select a position where he won't have to run around too much and be able to stay on boss close to 100% time. Getiing out of void zones and using innervates and rebirths - that's not a skill, that's a bare minimum. If you can't do that - you shouldn't be even considered for spot in raid, better have 24 people than 25 with 1 guy who stays in all the possible crap. You'd be surprised how often complaints are made about a druid not pulling off of their dps rotation to give someone a battle rez or to give an Innervate to a healer who's gone OOM for one reason or another. In that respect, this (perhaps "skill" isn't the best term) awareness, shall I say, can make or break a raid; it can be the difference between a clear and a 1% wipe, which to many would merit a certain level of respect for that player as a dps. I wouldn't call that "bare minimum".
Perhaps to you, it is, as you have so commonly told us of the "leet" standards of your guild(s), but that leaves most of the gamers out there in the cold. As we are trying to create an unbiased opinion here, your standards are hardly relevant here.
I think you never experienced a good guild. You can't imagine how much more pleasant it is to raid with skilled people who care about raids. One quick example: General Vezax. In my guild missed interrupt on his aoe attack - is something extraordinary, something that doesn't happen 2 times in a row and does rarely happen more than once in 2-3 weeks. Obviously we are doing hard mode and get pretty upset if we don't do it in 2-3 tries. Another guild, 5th or 6th on server. Doing normal version of Vezax. I don't want to mention how many people have been trying to get a "shadowcatcher" achievement, but the boss died on like 6th attempt and ALL the wipes were due to aoe not being interrupted. It wasn't interrupted once in this attempt as well, but cooldowns saved the tank somehow. And noone even said a word to a slacking melees, whos job is ridiculously easy for this fight to begin with. I think you've never experienced the game for the pure aspect of "fun". I find I enjoy raiding more depending upon the people I'm raiding with, as opposed to making sure I'm raiding with the best. Yeah, I probably wipe more often than your guild does, but then again, I'm also probably happier when I come out from a night of wipes. And why is that? Because every person in our raid doesn't get *!@#ed off when someone craps up and does something stupid, we make jokes and poke fun at them and laugh it off before trying again.
As per usual, your side of the argument is incredibly prejudiced toward the top X%, which consists of very few people and isn't really relevant at all in this debate. Honestly, if you intend to keep answering in this thread, I'd highly recommend stepping off your high-horse for a moment and try responding in a somewhat neutral tone for once. It'd make your points a lot more difficult to tear apart, surely.
I agree with that opinion with a few conditions. In my opinion, if spec A does more damage on every fight compared to spec B and spec B doesn't give raid anything that spec A doesn't give - then any dps who has spec B is a bad dps. You see? Here it is again. That attitude you have going on. The one where the only levels of skill that exist are "top notch" and "bad". Try opening your mind a little bit and I'm sure you can find a number of other levels in between.
And of course we need to remember that damage of different specs can be gear dependent. It is ok to pley sub-optimal spec if due to gear limitations it does provide higher dps than the best spec,
but once the gear is upgraded player should switch to the best spec available.
If they are trying to get in with you, absolutely. I, however, wouldn't bother someone to switch unless it was a drastic change in dps or if we just really need a boost to take down a new boss in progression content.
Notice how my opinion is different from yours. Yeah, your opinion is neither the only one that exists, nor is it the only that matters. Try to word your posts so you don't seem as if you're regarding your opinions as fact. That kinda thing *!@#es me off, to be frank.
Again I want to emphasize that this concerns only main raiders who care (or pretend that they do) about raids. If somebody is playing for fun only - they are free to do whatever they want, even if they want to melee boss with a staff as mage. However I would prefer if those players play with similar ones and don't join raids and LFD. So if someone would rather play a fire mage (which still pulls competitive dps in comparison to arcane), you think they shouldn't be allowed to raid? That is just over-the-top stupidity. :|
Essentially, you're saying that only guilds who, at present, are in the top 3% of the world should be able to raid. What kinda bull$%^& is that?
And about your inclusion of LFD in that already clear display of elitist ass-hattery... you do realize that LFD encompasses heroics, right? So now, not only are you telling all but the best of raiding guilds out there to stop raiding entirely, you're also telling them to never set foot in a heroic again. If you're going to keep up this blatant disregard for most of the players in-game, you
REALLY
need to stop posting here. Seriously.
Did you notice how I put that "really" in bold, italic,
and
underline? Yeah, I'm serious. Please stop posting here if you can't develop at least some regard for someone other than yourself.
Post by
MegaVolt
No, that's not what I'm saying. Let me put this scenario in front of you:
You have 2 DK DPSers. One is in 1800 gear score on 8wow-heroes, one is in a 2700 gear score. The person with 1800 GS can do 2.8k on a boss fight. The person who is in 2700 can do 4.5k. Who's the better player?
The easy way to find out is to just check Recount. Not the overall damage of course but which abilities they used. Compare it to the player you know. You can easily see if the new guy is using the right spell composition etc.
You can also check engagement time (which tells you a lot about how good the player is at movement, especially as melee dps) and activity.
If you want to go the extra mile you can also enter both players into the simulator of your choice and sim out their maximum possible dps. Then just check how far away they are from it and you know who was doing better.
There is no need to wait for BiS gear to be able to judge a good player.
Additionally if you know you have a good healer - dedicated, shows up on time (being reliable is just as important as doing good in game!), knows his character, gear and skills - you can expect him to learn how to dps properly extremely fast. My Druid has healing as main spec and feral dps as off spec. Right now I am not a good cat since I rarely ever get to play as one in a raid. My dps is not bad, still around 5k to 6k usually (depending on movement), but far from awesome. But if my guild told me to go feral dps as main spec I'm pretty sure that within a week or two I would be able to compete with our current main spec feral cat.
So yes, you can't just give a skilled player a new class / spec and expect him to do perfect damage with it right away. But if you know you are dealing with a skilled player (in any class / spec) it is pretty reasonable to assume that given a bit of practise he will do very good with other classes / specs, too.
Again I want to emphasize that this concerns only main raiders who care (or pretend that they do) about raids. If somebody is playing for fun only - they are free to do whatever they want, even if they want to melee boss with a staff as mage. However I would prefer if those players play with similar ones and don't join raids and LFD. So if someone would rather play a fire mage (which still pulls competitive dps in comparison to arcane), you think they shouldn't be allowed to raid? That is just over-the-top stupidity. :|
Essentially, you're saying that only guilds who, at present, are in the top 3% of the world should be able to raid. What kinda bull$%^& is that?
And about your inclusion of LFD in that already clear display of elitist ass-hattery... you do realize that LFD encompasses heroics, right? So now, not only are you telling all but the best of raiding guilds out there to stop raiding entirely, you're also telling them to never set foot in a heroic again. If you're going to keep up this blatant disregard for most of the players in-game, you
REALLY
need to stop posting here. Seriously.
Did you notice how I put that "really" in bold, italic,
and
underline? Yeah, I'm serious. Please stop posting here if you can't develop at least some regard for someone other than yourself.
I just came out of the daily random heroic. I was healing it on my main, a resto Druid in full raiding gear (ilvl 245 to 264). We had a Hunter in basic epics (mostly ilvl 200-219 with a few pieces of 232) pulling around 1.5k dps.
I told him that his spec has a lot of room for improvement and that he could do much better, he should go to wowhead and read up on current hunter specs and rotations.
That Hunter got all &*!@y, started to insult me and my "elitist" attitude and generally became very, very rude in ways that I prefer not to repeat here.
There is nothing wrong with playing a spec that is not the perfect right now, like fire mage vs arcane mage. There is also nothing wrong with having bad gear - everyone has to gear up at some point.
But being a lazy prick, going with some stupid 0/71/0 or 20/30/21 stuff, just auto attacking all dungeon on or anthing like that - that's just wrong. Entering LFD with a character and attitude like that just ruins the game for the 4 poor people that get grouped with this idiot.
If someone wants to melee mobs to death as a Mage that's perfectly fine but he should do so on his own. Not in a group with others who depend on him pulling his weight.
So I have to agree with Gesha: I wish the lazy idiots would just stay off LFD. I have absolutely no problems teaming up with someone with bad gear who still knows his rotation or at least is willing to learn it.
But I have a huge problem with morons in my team that, no matter their gear, just play bad and have no clue about what they are doing in game. I'm very happy that it's possible to kick them most of the time.
Post by
Monjaru
I just came out of the daily random heroic. I was healing it on my main, a resto Druid in full raiding gear (ilvl 245 to 264). We had a Hunter in basic epics (mostly ilvl 200-219 with a few pieces of 232) pulling around 1.5k dps.
I told him that his spec has a lot of room for improvement and that he could do much better, he should go to wowhead and read up on current hunter specs and rotations.
That Hunter got all &*!@y, started to insult me and my "elitist" attitude and generally became very, very rude in ways that I prefer not to repeat here.
There is nothing wrong with playing a spec that is not the perfect right now, like fire mage vs arcane mage. There is also nothing wrong with having bad gear - everyone has to gear up at some point.
But being a lazy prick, going with some stupid 0/71/0 or 20/30/21 stuff, just auto attacking all dungeon on or anthing like that - that's just wrong. Entering LFD with a character and attitude like that just ruins the game for the 4 poor people that get grouped with this idiot.
If someone wants to melee mobs to death as a Mage that's perfectly fine but he should do so on his own. Not in a group with others who depend on him pulling his weight.
So I have to agree with Gesha: I wish the lazy idiots would just stay off LFD. I have absolutely no problems teaming up with someone with bad gear who still knows his rotation or at least is willing to learn it.
But I have a huge problem with morons in my team that, no matter their gear, just play bad and have no clue about what they are doing in game. I'm very happy that it's possible to kick them most of the time. But, you see, that's not the opinion he's been expressing at all. Not in the entirety of this thread has he expressed that his only beef is with players who run with horribly designed specs. If
that's
what you think he was talking about, then no, you don't agree with Gesha, because that's not his opinion on the matter at all.
If you read from the top of the paragraph I had quoted, he very specifically stated that all he said only applied to those who are "serious" about raiding (serious like he apparently is; as in, top-3%-of-the-world "serious"). That means that he was referring to anyone
not
in that top-3%-serious group. That means he is calling everyone below his standards a baddie who should stay out of raiding entirely, and stay away from LFD feature that Blizz obviously created for top-end players only. (notice the dripping sarcasm here?)
If his problem lay only with those who simply spec badly (like horrible combinations you listed) and refuse to play their class the way it is designed to be played, then I'd agree too. But if you just read all this person has been saying, I'm sure you'll come to find that's not his opinion at all.
Gesha is a hardcore elitist. At it's finest, he is. He's the kinda guy that create such hard feelings between "serious" players and "casuals". And if you actually
have
already read through his side of this argument and still can't place that, then I pity you. I really do.
Post by
MegaVolt
He said he'd prefer players who want to melee bosses as Mages or similar don't join the LFD. I don't disagree there.
In the end it's the definition of "serious". I'd say everyone who researches his spec, rotation and gear priorities is a serious player. Someone who cares about his character and about improving its performance in the game.
Not serious on the other hand are people too lazy to look those things up even if they get told their current way if playing is bad. And Mages meleeing bosses ofc ;)
Post by
219211
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
He said he'd prefer players who want to melee bosses as Mages or similar don't join the LFD. I don't disagree there.
In the end it's the definition of "serious". I'd say everyone who researches his spec, rotation and gear priorities is a serious player. Someone who cares about his character and about improving its performance in the game.
Not serious on the other hand are people too lazy to look those things up even if they get told their current way if playing is bad. And Mages meleeing bosses ofc ;) Actually, what he did there was mash together good players who don't spec into "the best" spec and the lowest of the low, like melee hunters, and mages who dps with their staff. He has repeatedly expressed the opinion that "serious" raiders are those like-minded to himself, such that one MUST respec immediately if a spec starts to pull a couple hundred dps less than another. Only the top 3 or so percent of raiding guilds, essentially. Those "pushing for world firsts" as he says.
With this mind set in play, everyone else needs to stay out of raids and yes, LFD as well. So I really hope you're joking about agreeing with this.
To Monjaru
Whenever I do something - I try to do it the best way I can. So if I come to raid - I do try to perform my best. When I choose to heal/tank/dps with a character - I try to do my best. Doesn't mean I am successful with everything I do, but I at least attempt.
And attempt includes using proper spec and rotation. If I feel that I don't like certain rotation - fine, I can use calculator, do some theorycrafting to see if the rotation I like can provide comparable dps. If not - I will use the one I don't like as much.
And when I am in a group - I expect the same kind of attitude from people. Yes, it is a game, but it is a team game. It is expected that everyone puts an effort. I understand that when character has just dinged lvl 80 and has only bad greens/blues he won't be able to do much. But if he put some effort (like ecnhanted gear) - he actually would perform fine and I will never have any issues with him. It's those who run for fun only and do whatever they feel like (EVEN THOUGH I AM A HUNTER, I WANT TO BE A MELEE kind of thing) - those are the ones who annoy me, because with their behavior they show disrespect towards me. Yes, well not everyone is like you. Just something you're going to have to except. You will find people who prefer to stay one spec for reasons of "fun" or "ease of play" and such, and if those specs still put out respectable numbers (perhaps not the "best", as you seem so intent on), then what the hell gives you the right to hound someone over it?
It's their money that's paying for their account time, and it's hardly hurting your chances of progression (unless the encounter you're stuck on happens to be designed to be a dps race, as I've already stated), so why should they feel pressured to switch specs for a little more dps if it's damaging their ability to enjoy the game?
That
, Gesha, is why I don't like the way you're taking this argument. Because you focus on "the best" (which is fine), and you expect everyone else to think just like you (which is
not
fine).
You seem to be under the impression that anyone who doesn't aim to be the best, no matter the reasoning behind this decision, to be a bad player, unworthy of raiding with you. That's just a really *!@#ed up way to play this game.
And I also see 2 groups of people playing WoW - one group plays the game and another pushes the buttons. 2nd group has probably over 90% of people who have subscription to WoW. It is their choice how to play game, but I really wish I never had to deal with them. With lack of their skills they either make dungeons runs too long or impossible (in case they are tank or healer), or they take time in raids when you have to boot them and find a replacement (talking about pugs obviously). I really wish I could raid, but with my current schedule I will be making to at most 70% of raids - that's not something my guild expects from main raiders and that's not something I want to do when I am in a core raiding group. So that's why I have to deal with people, who play for pressing buttons and have no desire to improve their game skill. It's just that tunnel-visioned version of this game that irks me about you. If you can only see two skill levels of players in a game with such a broad expanse of players, then I can hardly see how their is doubt on your lack of visionary ability.
It just astounds me that you can't see a different level between the terribads (meleeing hunter dps without pets, staff dpsing casters, and the like), the average players (know rotations, about the class, but can't seem to get it down just right), the above averages (know rotations, class, and such, and can perform well), great players (who can do all the above averages can and add in a little extra with utility and such), and then the perfectionists on top (going for world firsts, like yourself). And there are so many more in between each.
Yet among all the diversity, all you see are the bad players and the great players. What kind of messed up outlook on the game is that?
Post by
skribs
Very well said Monjaru. You're right, in the top 1% of guilds who are going for world firsts you may have every right to say "you're not up to par with what we need unless you go for the theoretical maximum your class has to offer." However, in the vast majority of guilds, you do have players who range from terribad to poor to average to good to great to elite. Not only that, but some people are better at some things than others (e.g. you may have an average DPSer who is always the first to switch targets, you may have the top DPSer being someone who never switches targets and who uses Curse of Doom on a fight which will drop aggro after 55 seconds on a boss immune to taunt - that was a fun set of attempts on Hydross).
Most guilds want the best players, but tend to get a mixture of all levels. The job of most GMs then isn't to simply look and say "oh, you're a fire mage? Gkick!" It's to raid with the players and say "you terribad-through-average players need to step it up, we need all our raiders at least above average for this content." Then when breaking into 10-mans, they have to actually think so they dont stack one group and have other groups not finishing. It's a different type of guild than the top 1%, and it requires different skills on part of the good players and the raid leaders - how do you overcome the shortcomings of some players and still down the content?
And as has been said - its very easy to see who's skilled and who's not by looking at recount. I'm not talking about the "damage done" but rather the damage breakdown (check their rotation to see if they're doing something wrong), damage taken (were they pulling aggro or standing in fire), damage breakdown (were they attacking the right target), as well as a few other things depending on fight.
For example, I ran FoS with another DK in our guild. He outgears me a bit, and on the first boss he does more DPS than me by quite a bit. However, he has 1% damage done on the cloud while I have 13%, so who's better there? Then on the last boss he repeatedly died before me (we had horrible healers) because of void zones or standing in the wail. Also, after inspecting him I noticed he's DPSing as blood in blood presence - where blood should be in unholy presence. So who's the better player? The one doing slightly more DPS in better gear; or the player nerfing his DPS by a bit to accomidate for fight mechanics? This isn't something DPS can show you, but other parts of recount or simply watching can.
This is also the part which is player specific and really cannot be judged by theorycrafting. Which is probably why most spreadsheet elitists dont understand it.
Post by
219211
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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