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Unwritten duel rules
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Post by
cloudp
If they don't accept..."/s You are a no good, has to use "crutches" to win....<Insert colorful response in FULL CAPS here!>". Then put them on your Never Duel This Person Again List.
This is the only point i don't agree with; if i ask a reduel and people say no, i still keep my mouth shut. There may be some righteous reason other than cooldowns - be it time/ need to AFK,
crucial
cooldowns (Medallion, for instance, versus a rogue), or just personal dislike to play without all your cards. I put down a duel flag for an "again" under similar rules to the first; it is up to my opponent to choose to accept or not. If he doesn't i might think he wouldn't have won without his important cooldown, but i will still move on. My duel-ignore list comes from people who use lengthy cooldowns and complain YOU use those yourself. The typical QQQQQQ you potted when they themselves used Runic Potions... I wish that one was rarer.
All your other points are my exact line of "work".
The most important, not yet said in 4 pages, thing is - Duels are a practice. There are no rewards or penalties. I'm not saying it's not meant to be competitive, but certainly a loss won't kill you.
Post by
105944
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
105944
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
243770
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
cloudp
no, you just proved my point. You simply believe because you say something, that it is true. This is why you will always be "right". Stance dance implies what it is... a dance... hence you will constantly be switching. My point with the 25 rage point moves wasn't that you couldn't do anything, but that having more rage would allow you do to multiple moves. If you switch stances, do a move, and then switch stances again, you will lose rage again. There is nothing you can say that will disprove that having a rage potion would be incredibly helpful (hence a 'crutch', in your terms). Oh, except you just saying it isn't. /facepalm /yawn
I hope i don't get shot in the crossfire of bitter words, but aren't you assuming the warrior will be dealing zero hits? It is a duel, so it's not like the warrior won't be focused; the same way, he will obviously try to keep his target in range always. So, wouldn't the warrior gain so much more from popping a potion for a good chunk of health and hitting his target once more than to use it for a single attack? The only way a warrior starves for rage is being protection and not focused; this won't just happen in any way i can think of in a duel.
Post by
leuitinet
Shad you dont play a warrior much do you? Execute only need 15 rage. They put a the 30 rage cap limit so the warrior has the possiblity for extra dmg for each rage point. Lame example. As for Mortal Strike, it is and arms warriors Heroic Strike. What you fail to acknowledge about rage mechanics is the rate at rage is generated. When they swing AND hit, when they take melee dmg, and if one is spec'd into it, Arms being the spec.
An 80 Arms Warrior wont need rage pots due to endless rage talent, Unbridled Wrath, and Imp. Bloodrage. Thats more than enough rage gen. to perform. But not every warrior that duels is 80, so the rage pot has the 'need'.
yes mana pots are designed for mana users. Why would a warrior rogue or dk use them? Another lame example number 2.
0/2 shad
Post by
leuitinet
no, you just proved my point. You simply believe because you say something, that it is true. This is why you will always be "right". Stance dance implies what it is... a dance... hence you will constantly be switching. My point with the 25 rage point moves wasn't that you couldn't do anything, but that having more rage would allow you do to multiple moves. If you switch stances, do a move, and then switch stances again, you will lose rage again. There is nothing you can say that will disprove that having a rage potion would be incredibly helpful (hence a 'crutch', in your terms). Oh, except you just saying it isn't. /facepalm /yawn
I hope i don't get shot in the crossfire of bitter words, but aren't you assuming the warrior will be dealing zero hits? It is a duel, so it's not like the warrior won't be focused; the same way, he will obviously try to keep his target in range always. So, wouldn't the warrior gain so much more from popping a potion for a good chunk of health and hitting his target once more than to use it for a single attack? The only way a warrior starves for rage is being protection and not focused; this won't just happen in any way i can think of in a duel.
The rage pot doesnt take life. Bloodrage does, but the bloodrage glyph cancles the life loss. Not all warriors will duel a melee class. I dont think rage is generated when hit by magical attacks
Post by
68759
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
cloudp
The rage pot doesnt take life. Bloodrage does, but the bloodrage glyph cancles the life loss. Not all warriors will duel a melee class. I dont think rage is generated when hit by magical attacks
No, no, what i mean is you, by taking a health pot, will stay alive longer, allowing you to set up more attacks than you would by placing a rage pot in a single attack. I know it doesn't consume HP.
And magic attacks give rage, i think.
Post by
Jehjoa
/cowers before the awesomeness that is jehjoa
Finally some recognition. :D
Post by
Monjaru
Shad you dont play a warrior much do you? Execute only need 15 rage. They put a the 30 rage cap limit so the warrior has the possiblity for extra dmg for each rage point. Lame example. You
do
realize you're only proving him more right in saying this, don't you? He was providing examples of Warrior moves that wouldn't be available after switching stances leaving them with 25 rage. Mortal Strike is the only Warrior move that costs more than that, Execute
can
cost more than 25 rage, which is why he mentioned it. It would still be usable, though, which is why he said "(not even that on the execute)" in parenthesis right after it.
As for Mortal Strike, it is and arms warriors Heroic Strike. What you fail to acknowledge about rage mechanics is the rate at rage is generated. When they swing AND hit, when they take melee dmg, and if one is spec'd into it, Arms being the spec. You are
again
proving his point that Warriors have no "need" for rage potions.
Edit
: I'm beginning to think you know very little about the warrior class yourself. Mortal Strike is
not
an arms warrior's HS. Mortal Strike is a main part of their rotation, and is used on every CD. HS is simply a rage dump for both fury and prot.
An 80 Arms Warrior wont need rage pots due to endless rage talent, Unbridled Wrath, and Imp. Bloodrage. Thats more than enough rage gen. to perform. But not every warrior that duels is 80, so the rage pot has the 'need'. Duels are never anything close to "balanced" outside of level 80. This is due to the fact that all classes receive major moves that will improve their game at different times throughout the leveling progress. As such, I believe we are talking (for the most part) about level 80 duels in this thread.
yes mana pots are designed for mana users. Why would a warrior rogue or dk use them? Another lame example number 2. Just as rage pots are designed for rage users; why would a mage, warlock, or priest use them? In your wording,
another lame example
.
0/2 leuitinet Fixed for ya.
Edit2
: Also... And magic attacks give rage, i think. Yes. Yes they do.
Post by
leuitinet
Execute is a finisher monjaru, as im sure you know. A warrior cant use this unless their target is at the right percentage of health. This was an OP finisher because warriors would try a full rage dump. The cap was used to control this. Again as im sure you know. Yes its a lame example, because Execute is a finisher, and requires a certain life total to be used. Unless the warrior is arms.
The rage pot isnt useful to an 80 only to lower levels. So, saying that im proving him right is irrelevent. Why? Because we all know an 80 has more rage gen. than lower lvls. Try again.
You proved me right, by saying that a mana user has no need for rage pots. You only switched the classes and pot in question.
0/2 shad still in effect
Post by
250582
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
leuitinet
Irish i see alot of arms warriors in pvp, and always in arenas for Trip Plate Cleave.
Do I start arguements with Shad on purpose? No. But he does add a tension... Thanks to his delivery tech.
We are talking about duels in general. It just so happen that everyone is making references to 80 in some way shape or form.
The difference is this: Yes only 15 rage to use, but unless your spec'd into sudden death, it cant be used untill the target is at or below a certain amount of life. That being said, having 25 rage and not having the target at or below the required amount, or having sudden death active, Execute is useless.
Thats why i say Shad using execute as an example was a lame point
Post by
Monjaru
Execute is a finisher monjaru, as im sure you know. A warrior cant use this unless their target is at the right percentage of health. This was an OP finisher because warriors would try a full rage dump. The cap was used to control this. Again as im sure you know. Yes its a lame example, because Execute is a finisher, and requires a certain life total to be used. Unless the warrior is arms. Okaaaay, and you're explaining the changes made to Execute to me... why, exactly? The reason Blizz put a rage cap on Execute is completely out of place in this discussion. The argument was never about times Execute is available for use according to the tooltip; the point made was that only 2 moves in the entirety of a Warrior's spell book will ever cost over the 25 rage one will have (if specced into it) after changing stances.
The first one is Mortal Strike. The second is Execute, which
can
cost over 25 rage (up to 30, as I said, and you felt the need to repeat and explain for no apparent reason). It can be used with as little as 15 rage, yes, but if you have under 30 rage, it will bring you down to 0, regardless. So, in this situation, it could be beneficial to pop a rage potion.
HOWEVER, as these are the only 2 moves that cost a warrior more than 25 rage (and neither are wise choices if you're low on rage, whether by switching stances or simply not hitting or being hit enough), the situations where using a rage potion is necessary are so few, it is best to leave it at, "Rage potions are not necessary in duels."
This is the only point that was disputed.
The rage pot isnt useful to an 80 only to lower levels. So, saying that im proving him right is irrelevent. Why? Because we all know an 80 has more rage gen. than lower lvls. Try again. As this thread is, for the most part, regarding duels at level 80, the fact rage potions are useful at lower levels is irrelevant to this discussion. Try again.
You proved me right, by saying that a mana user has no need for rage pots. You only switched the classes and pot in question. I didn't prove you right, because you never established a proper point to disprove anything Shad said. What I did do was mimic your statement and show that it can work on both sides of the spectrum.
0/2 shad
still
was never
in effect
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Irish i see alot of arms warriors in pvp, and always in arenas for Trip Plate Cleave. That was the whole point of what he said. Most PvP warriors are going to be Arms, thus showing the lack of relevance to your comment that Execute is a finisher
UNLESS
the Warrior is Arms.
We are talking about duels in general. It just so happen that everyone is making references to 80 in some way shape or form. So, basically, you accept the fact that everyone in the thread is talking about duels at level 80... but you still
expect
us to know that you're talking about lower level duels when you talk about lack of rage generation meriting the use of rage potions in duels?
Something doesn't quite add up there.... oh, right. It just doesn't add up.
The difference is this: Yes only 15 rage to use, but unless your spec'd into sudden death, it cant be used untill the target is at or below a certain amount of life. That being said, having 25 rage and not having the target at or below the required amount, or having sudden death active, Execute is useless. lolwhut?
So, you mean to say that there is a difference when the user isn't specced into Sudden Death? But most, if not all, PvPers are Arms (and therefore specced into Sudden Death). Soooo... there is no difference at all?
I see! So you were on my side all along, and you just didn't realize it. Brilliant! :)
Thats why i say Shad using execute as an example was a lame point Right, okay.
...
But it wasn't a lame point. It was a viable point, somewhat less powerful a point as Mortal Strike, but either way.
What you don't seem to understand here is that those 2 examples were the only thing keeping Shad's theory from being 100% right. If you say that point is weak, you bring it down to 1 thing keeping him from completely winning the thread.
Is that what you want? If not, then you may want to find a different point to argue over. ;)
Post by
leuitinet
Just because their are alot of references doesnt mean that the dueling at 80 is the topic. The rage potion came into play when Shad said potions were a crutch and not a class defined tool. I'll agree that rage pots arent neccessary in duels, but they are defined to the rage classes, as mana to mana classes, as we've both stated. So i dont see why they are 'crutches'. You also provided some reinforcement to why a rage pot would be neccessary.
And if ive been agreeing with you the whole time than why try to disprove my posts? I know why. Its because the way I say things 'dont make sense'. But if you can understand my posts, and tell me that I've been agreeing with you, than my posts arent irrelevent and do 'make sense'.
Post by
Monjaru
Just because their are alot of references doesnt mean that the dueling at 80 is the topic. The rage potion came into play when Shad said potions were a crutch and not a class defined tool. I'll agree that rage pots arent neccessary in duels, but they are defined to the rage classes, as mana to mana classes, as we've both stated. So i dont see why they are 'crutches'. You also provided some reinforcement to why a rage pot would be neccessary. Can a Warrior or Bear druid win a duel against another level 80 of equal gear and skill without using a rage potion? The answer is yes. As such, using that rage potion (which isn't needed) is giving yourself a crutch.
And mana potions to mana-using classes really isn't comparable to rage potions to rage-using classes. Why is this so? Because of the way rage generation works in relation to mana regeneration.
When a mage or warlock duels, they will be spellcasting often enough that their mana will not be able to keep up if used for a long enough time. On the contrary, no matter how long the duel lasts, a warrior or bear druid will have the same flow of rage to use abilities so long as they continue to hit the target. This is why there are stats that can be stacked to increase one's mana regeneration and overall mana pool, yet no stats increase one's rage generation (not directly, anyway, strength and agility will indirectly benefit it, but that's a whole different discussion).
So, when a mana user consumes a mana potion in a PvP situation, it is because they actually need it to keep casting spells. When a warrior or bear druid uses a rage potion, it is not necessary because all it takes it one or two hits from their melee attack to generate the same amount of rage, whereas, in combat, it could take whole minutes (minutes you don't have before you die/are defeated) to regen the same amount of mana you get from a potion.
And if ive been agreeing with you the whole time than why try to disprove my posts? I know why. Its because the way I say things 'dont make sense'. But if you can understand my posts, and tell me that I've been agreeing with you, than my posts arent irrelevent and do 'make sense'. You misunderstand me. That comment only corresponded to the quote it was underneath. I disprove the points you make that are wrong or misinformed, and I scrutinize your points that only further strengthen my own side of the argument.
Some of the things you say
don't
make sense. This for example:
Irish
i see alot of arms warriors in pvp, and always in arenas
for Trip Plate Cleave.
The difference is this: Yes only 15 rage to use, but unless your spec'd into sudden death, it cant be used untill the target is at or below a certain amount of life
. That being said, having 25 rage and not having the target at or below the required amount, or having sudden death active, Execute is useless. You told Irish that the vast majority of Warriors you see in PvP are arms. Every Arms Warrior who has half a mind will be specced into Sudden Death.
You then go on to say that the only reason you have a valid point (which isn't so valid as you might think) is when Warriors aren't specced into Sudden Death. So essentially, you will have a valid point in one of every couple hundred PvP scenarios, a small enough chance that we can simplify it to "never".
So, essentially, you have no point. Ever. By your own words, of course. Contradiction doesn't make sense.
Post by
marlowe
dude, shad, your %^&*s weak, fool.
you havent even addressed the point of this forum topic. so...using your over used saying....
obvious troll is obvious.
/doh!
and whatever, who cares. like many people have said, if you made rules, then fine. i dont like wasting the potion, so i dont use it. if someone else does, ill make fun of them if they beat me. kind of makes my poor play ability overshadowed and i can boast the possibility of a win. (though, well, we all know thats not gonna happen lol)
Post by
Monjaru
dude, shad, your %^&*s weak, fool.
you havent even addressed the point of this forum topic. so...using your over used saying....
obvious troll is obvious. Honestly, you seem more like a troll than Shad does. Or a flamer at the very least. An obvious flamer.
Mad kid is mad.
Post by
105944
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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