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Raid ID locks
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Post by
sargasso
Last night I tanked what, in retrospect, was clearly a fail PuG run in ICC10. Unfortunately, despite suspecting the raid would not acheive much I battled on.
Ultimately we called it having wiped several times on Lady Deathwhisper, having managed to down Lord Marrowgar on the 3rd attempt, thereby saving me to the raid instance.
I post this topic in order to query why Blizzard devised a specific raid ID into which you are locked? Surely it makes more sense to device a mechanism whereby everybody who has downed a boss is, thereafter, only permitted to raid with others who have downed that (or those) same boss (bosses) as well? Trash respawns and is not really a factor as far as I can see.
So now the individual constituents from the raid will now try and build a raid to down more bosses. I myself will endeavour to do the same. If mutiple people succeed at different times, if the 1st one formed meets with success in downing a few more bosses, everyone trying later in the raid week cycle who was on the 1st run misses out.
Post by
MasterOutlaw
I post this topic in order to query why Blizzard devised a specific raid ID into which you are locked? Surely it makes more sense to device a mechanism whereby everybody who has downed a boss is, thereafter, only permitted to raid with others who have downed that (or those) same boss (bosses) as well?
For starters a lot of the ways instances work are only possible because of specific IDs. Certain achievements that are based around lockouts (Naxx and Ulduar's "Undying" achievements for example) or raids that only allow a certain number of attempts on the content (such as ToGC and ICC) wouldn't be possible or somewhat made a mockery of under your proposition. How would you even keep track of something like that? And even if it somehow saved the progress to your character, when you form a new group how do you determine who's progress to use? The raid leader's? Which then doesn't change much from the current system or could be wind up being abused.
Second, you just make it harder for yourself to reform the raid later on when you can only pick from people who are in exactly the same spot as you (which is what the current system does with the ID, except you can freely pick up people who haven't been saved yet). Besides, wiping excessively in raids is usually a result of people not working together very well or just flat out being bad at the game. Taking a bunch of people from those types of raids and lumping them together isn't very likely to improve their success. A burnt out lightbulb isn't going to work any better if you change what lamp it's in.
What
would
be nice to see is being able to check what bosses are still alive in your ID just by checking your calendar. And it would update periodically so even if you weren't present for the kill you would know what was downed without having to physically run to the instance and check. You already get a similar list whenever the raid displays the Lock Out warning so why not slap it into the calendar?
Post by
sargasso
For starters a lot of the ways instances work are only possible because of specific IDs. Certain achievements that are based around lockouts (Naxx and Ulduar's "Undying" achievements for example) or raids that only allow a certain number of attempts on the content (such as ToGC and ICC) wouldn't be possible or somewhat made a mockery of under your proposition. How would you even keep track of something like that?
Quite easily I would say. Several options are possible. Can either use lowest common denominator, or void the opportunity to get those achievements, unless the people from the original raid run, or totally unsaved people form the members of the raid. Should someone be focused on trying to get an acheivement they would have to secure either type of people. If they just want to down bosses for enjoyment and loot then they merely need someone at the same stage (i.e same bosses downed).
Second, you just make it harder for yourself to reform the raid later on when you can only pick from people who are in exactly the same spot as you (which is what the current system does with the ID, except you can freely pick up people who haven't been saved yet).
As above; totally unsaved people can still be invited. Further, people who have done 2 bosses should be able to invite others who have only done 1 of those bosses.
Besides, wiping excessively in raids is usually a result of people not working together very well or just flat out being bad at the game. Taking a bunch of people from those types of raids and lumping them together isn't very likely to improve their success. A burnt out lightbulb isn't going to work any better if you change what lamp it's in.
I like the analogy and I agree partially. However, you have the case where the entire raid is fine and it is called for any number of other reasons, or you attempt to draw the good raiders from a number of seperate original unsuccessful raids together in order to advance further.
What
would
be nice to see is being able to check what bosses are still alive in your ID just by checking your calendar. And it would update periodically so even if you weren't present for the kill you would know what was downed without having to physically run to the instance and check. You already get a similar list whenever the raid displays the Lock Out warning so why not slap it into the calendar?
This is an excellent idea and would love to see that happen across all instance types.
I am not trying to be dismissive or argumentative, but the barriers mentioned thus far are not, in any way, insurmountable in my opinion and an overhaul of the current Raid ID mechanism would be much better than it is now. I really think that implementing an algorithm to establish who has done what and analyse cross compatibility with other potential raid members who have partially completed a raid would really not be that hard.
There must be numerous people who have partially completed raids under their belt which results in having to wait until reset to give the instance another run.
Post by
Thundurmaul
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=143241
I posted this yesterday. My posts are never popular.
Post by
sargasso
Your post and replies did raise an interesting issue with regards to being saved to a raid instance for having downed bosses which appear later on as opposed to the first ones.
However, again, it is not hard to create logic which can deal with it. Raid ID MarkII would record you have done bosses 3, 4 and 5 so allow partaking of 1, 2 and 6 onwards, but not 3, 4 and 5.
Actually programming this and integrating it into the instance/raid environment might not be easy. Perhaps prohibited areas would be added to the instances which ported you out, or prevented you from entering. No idea, but then again, I am not a professionaly programmer or game developer. :) I suspect if they can phase regions based on quest advancement they can certainly adapt a similar system for instances. Allocate killing a boss to a quest place holder or such like.
Post by
MasterOutlaw
Quite easily I would say. Several options are possible. Can either use lowest common denominator, or void the opportunity to get those achievements, unless the people from the original raid run, or totally unsaved people form the members of the raid. Should someone be focused on trying to get an acheivement they would have to secure either type of people. If they just want to down bosses for enjoyment and loot then they merely need someone at the same stage (i.e same bosses downed).
As above; totally unsaved people can still be invited. Further, people who have done 2 bosses should be able to invite others who have only done 1 of those bosses.
Fair enough, though in your original post in the original wording you stated that you would only be able to continue with people who have made the same or more progress than you. Nothing about bringing in fresh people, unless I've misread.
However, you have the case where the entire raid is fine and it is called for any number of other reasons, or you attempt to draw the good raiders from a number of seperate original unsuccessful raids together in order to advance further
True. I was largely replying directly to your story about your ICC raid disbanding because you struggled on Marrowgar and couldn't down Deathwhisper. Raids really are called for a number of reasons so I'll give you that. It can be a pain when you've essentially "wasted" a lock out for the week for one reason or another.
I am not trying to be dismissive or argumentative, but the barriers mentioned thus far are not, in any way, insurmountable in my opinion and an overhaul of the current Raid ID mechanism would be much better than it is now. I really think that implementing an algorithm to establish who has done what and analyse cross compatibility with other potential raid members who have partially completed a raid would really not be that hard.
There must be numerous people who have partially completed raids under their belt which results in having to wait until reset to give the instance another run.
I wouldn't call it being argumentative or dismissive. It's debating. I love debating (as long as it's carried out in a somewhat civil manner). Without debating you can't really make meaningful progress. Debate.
Okay, I'll stop saying the word "debate" now.
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=143241
I posted this yesterday. My posts are never popular.
I like your posts. Does that count for something?
Post by
sargasso
I have to say an overhaul of the raiding system as discussed would be a tremendous improvement to raiding for the average player (or even the alts of serious raiders) who PuGs and has a hit and miss experience with the degree of success they have with that group.
One ramification would be that players would be able to switch and change and rotate easily and greatly increase the number bosses being killed,loot being disemminated into the population and emblem currency available to buy gear. The consequence would be people gearing more quickly and thereby content being concquered faster. So it would have a ripple effect as well.
Post by
Aldun
Because then you can farm frost emblems and gear by resetting all the time.
Post by
Gryphon
It would be nice to have loot lockouts instead of raid lockouts. If you down Marrowgar and the raid falls apart, you would be able to join your friends later for another raid, you just aren't eligible to obtain loot/badges from Marrowgar. If you complete an entire raid, you could still help your friends out filling in on their run, you just wouldn't get any loot.
Definitely would help in my small guild where tanks and healers are in high demand, they would gladly help even though they had already done their raid for the day.
Post by
vic6string
I was part of yesterday's post too, and think this is a real problem the way it works now. Take the VoA I ran last week: We do the first boss, and the master looter "ninjas" one of the drops. This ticks off a few of the players, so at the start of the second boss they leave and we wipe. The group disbands about 30 seconds later. So that was the end of my VoA 25 for the week. The current system is fine if you run with a guild or are a regular sub for 1 or 2 groups, but for those of us that PUG due to schedule difficulties this system is horrible.
I can't join a raiding guild because my schedule does not allow it for the most part, and if I PUG I usually can only go for an hour or two before I have to log off. With the system we proposed yesterday, I could still do something like ICC in a week, a few fights at a time. But with the current system, I will never see Arthas (at least until cataclysm comes out and we can OP it and run it like we do ToC now)
Post by
sutasafaia
It would be nice to have loot lockouts instead of raid lockouts. If you down Marrowgar and the raid falls apart, you would be able to join your friends later for another raid, you just aren't eligible to obtain loot/badges from Marrowgar. If you complete an entire raid, you could still help your friends out filling in on their run, you just wouldn't get any loot.
Definitely would help in my small guild where tanks and healers are in high demand, they would gladly help even though they had already done their raid for the day.
I think this is the best idea I've heard to date as far as good alterations to lockouts.
Post by
archmiffo
It would be nice to have loot lockouts instead of raid lockouts. If you down Marrowgar and the raid falls apart, you would be able to join your friends later for another raid, you just aren't eligible to obtain loot/badges from Marrowgar. If you complete an entire raid, you could still help your friends out filling in on their run, you just wouldn't get any loot.
Definitely would help in my small guild where tanks and healers are in high demand, they would gladly help even though they had already done their raid for the day.
I think this is the best idea I've heard to date as far as good alterations to lockouts.
Dont get me wrong here. I think it could be a good substitute, but the basic idea as it stands now would be abused immensly.
A relative good raiding guild would be able to gear up all their characters in a 2 week period.
Scenario: Guild xxx Has one set of mains and one set of alts, all good enough to go in and do the latest raid. They go in with alts the first week. Clear it. Then one alt is removed, and they redo it with one main and the alts. He gets all the loot, all the tier tokens/marks/what-have-you. Then he is removed and another main comes along, he gets all the tier tokens/marks/what-have-you and so on. the next week they do this the opposite way so all the alts are geared up instead.
Now, it may take quite a lot of work to pull this off, but it would still be fully possible.
Post by
sutasafaia
It would be nice to have loot lockouts instead of raid lockouts. If you down Marrowgar and the raid falls apart, you would be able to join your friends later for another raid, you just aren't eligible to obtain loot/badges from Marrowgar. If you complete an entire raid, you could still help your friends out filling in on their run, you just wouldn't get any loot.
Definitely would help in my small guild where tanks and healers are in high demand, they would gladly help even though they had already done their raid for the day.
I think this is the best idea I've heard to date as far as good alterations to lockouts.
Dont get me wrong here. I think it could be a good substitute, but the basic idea as it stands now would be abused immensly.
A relative good raiding guild would be able to gear up all their characters in a 2 week period.
Scenario: Guild xxx Has one set of mains and one set of alts, all good enough to go in and do the latest raid. They go in with alts the first week. Clear it. Then one alt is removed, and they redo it with one main and the alts. He gets all the loot, all the tier tokens/marks/what-have-you. Then he is removed and another main comes along, he gets all the tier tokens/marks/what-have-you and so on. the next week they do this the opposite way so all the alts are geared up instead.
Now, it may take quite a lot of work to pull this off, but it would still be fully possible.
While I can see where your coming from, I don't honestly think it changes anything. A top-rated raiding guild is going to get the whole guild geared up anyway. A low-end raiding guild might not have enough people to get them all geared up with the lockouts, but could do it with a setup like this. As far as I can see (and I don't pretend to see all ~_^) this would just be another tool for top-rated guilds, but would be a life saver for low-end ones.
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