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Tank stat priority argument
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Post by
23709
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Post by
blademeld
Expertise and hit are a priority if you're having threat issues, if you're not having threat issues, hit would not be on the list and expertise would be lower than pure avoidance.
And achieving that is doable.
Post by
181961
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Post by
blademeld
Nope, like I said I was sitting at 2%, I only got to 5% because I was able to use the 2H from Marrowgar. Non DKs wouldn't be able to use 2Hs with a lot of hit, and I doubt there are 1H tank weapons that help much.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47734
could easily replace one of your trinkets if needed be.
I don't think so. Usually we can get around 25ish expertise so they don't dodge our attacks as much, but getting really high expertise, or capping it, is probably impossible. Unless you sacrifice survivability.
Bah, in times of ToC, there were strories of paladins overcapped in expertise, literally over the hardcap.
Post by
jwjsmith
There is so much hit on tank gear nowadays that getting hit capped is trivial and accomplished with only a few pieces. This is definitely to your raids' advantage, as even if threat is not an issue it will help with:
1. Mob switching
2. Initial threat (the most dangerous time of any encounter)
3. Tank switches
A tank that says they are just there for "meat shielding" is not factoring into account the full spectrum of tank requirements in raids. This is also why multiple gear sets are preferred - not every fight emphasizes the same tank mechanics. For example, there's no point in being expertise or hit capped on Blood Queen if you're the OT. On Saurfang there is quite a bit of tank switching involved and a missed taunt can lead to a lot of health regained via Rune of Blood. Etc.
Expertise is a bit more difficult to quantify, but on fights like Festergut, it's extremely important as burst damage with 3 inhales will kill the tank immediately if unlucky.
Tanks that aren't aware of what's going on or that don't optimize themselves for encounters are like the DPS that might pull 9k and outpace everyone but can't figure out the concept of switching targets at the appropriate time or moving out of avoidable damage - a liability to your raid no matter what their gear or ability to master some rotation they read about on EJ may be.
Post by
240282
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Post by
65116
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Post by
Porcell
1. should tanks be always hit capped?
2. is it fairly easy achivable?
3. should tanks be always expertise capped?
4. is this a doable task?
Being hit cap is not a priority. Is it achievable? Yes, depending on what gear you have available. I was way under hit cap during ToC since there was very little hit on 245 level gear. There was a TON of expertise though, and at one point I was up near 45 expertise. When I started in ICC, I ended up picking up a lot of hit and was overcapped hit for a little while. Then I picked up some of the better pieces and dropped the hit. I'm now at 192 hit and 17 expertise (gemming expertise/stamina in red sockets since I'm under the softcap).
Regardless, you pick up some hit and expertise on gear, but you don't really go out of your way to stack it. I would never gem for hit, but I would gem for expertise if you are under the 26 Expertise softcap (since it will reduce both Dodge and Parry, thus giving you "double" the return).
5. should Stamina and avoidance be higher priority than hit and expertise?
100% yes. Stamina is number 1, with Armor ever so slightly behind. This choice is rarely a concern, however, because when gear is itemized for Armor it usually takes away from Defense/Dodge/Parry/Hit/Expertise, and NOT Stamina. In general, pieces of the same item level will have roughly the same stamina, and 3 of the following: Bonus Armor, Defense, Dodge, Parry, Hit, Expertise. A piece with bonus armor is going to be the one you want (so T10 level it would be Offset Chest, Tier Chest, Offset Gloves, Tier Gloves, Badge Cloak, Badge Belt, Crafted Legs).
If you do want to pick up some hit and expertise, those options are out there, but keep in mind you'll be trading a bit of avoidance for that hit/expertise. If the choice is between Armor and Hit/Expertise, always pick the Armor. There are things like the Crafted Boots (hit), Dreamwalker Boots (expertise), Deathwhisper Helm (hit), Rep Ring (hit), Offset Chest (expertise) where you can pick up all the hit/expertise you need. Just remember to keep your priority on Stamina and Armor.
If your tanks are dying, it's not because of parry-haste from the boss. Either they did something wrong (didn't roll CDs at 3-stack), healers did something wrong (stood too close and puked on each other), or you are just undergeared for the fight.
Post by
windstrum
Your hit rating really has no bearing on your ability to tank, except with regard to generating threat.
Expertise on the other hand plays a part in survivability. How much of a part is hotly debated. Little is known about boss parry mechanics other than what has been discovered from log parses. However the general gist is, if a boss parries an attack, he swings faster on his target briefly.
It's funny you bring up Festergut in particular. My guilds early attempts at the 10man version were quite ordinary, and often we wiped as a result of our DK tank being "wtfpwnt" out-of-the-blue. The first time this happens, you put it down to bad RNG and move on. Second time, perhaps again. But after the fourth of fifth occurence, I took a peek at recount and discovered Festergut was parrying quite frequently. After talking with all the melee classes in the raid, we discovered that not only were both tanks far from being expertise capped (less than halfway, actually), but one DPS DK was also occasionally sneaking in front of the boss and being parried himself.
I made a '2 + 2' conclusion from this, and started harping on about how important expertise was for tanks, and how important it was for melee DPS to stay behind the boss at all times. While the DPS agreed with their part and corrected their error, the tanks hotly refuted my claims about the importance of expertise.
So I went away and did some research, and the population seems to be split. Some argue that being expertise capped is a priority, while others say it is not.
Personally? I do not gem expertise. I do, however, enchant expertise where I can, as well as seek out expertise gear deliberately and weigh it more heavily than gear without. As it stands on my druid tank, I'm not expertise capped, but I am very close. And I've given up very little in the process.
Post by
pezz
Parry hasting has been removed on about half of bosses.
There's a thread about it on Maintankadin somewhere where they're trying to work out which bosses still have parry hasting enabled and which don't.
In Ulduar and ToC I think they were getting towards the conclusion that maybe 60% of bosses had parry hasting turned off entirely. With the dodge debuff, and therefore smaller hits from bosses in ICC, I would guess that a smaller proportion of bosses have parry hasting turned off.
Post by
207044
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115013
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175113
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Post by
535530
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Post by
blademeld
You absolutely have to be expertise soft capped on progression fights. Parry-haste is almost always in effect.
http://pwnwear.com/2010/02/11/parry-haste-confirmed-to-be-mostly-off-in-icecrown-citadel/
:/
Post by
65116
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Post by
535530
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Post by
windstrum
You absolutely have to be expertise soft capped on progression fights. Parry-haste is almost always in effect.
http://pwnwear.com/2010/02/11/parry-haste-confirmed-to-be-mostly-off-in-icecrown-citadel/
:/
Huh. I would've sworn Festergut benefited from parry-haste. Interesting...
Post by
292580
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