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Why do I defend Thrall so much? this is why
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Post by
taurenmoo812
Don't be so god dam counter constructive. Irinida was discribing how the horde was weak under Thralls rule, and I gave perfect examples of why that was bunk, the complete opposite infact.
I'm not making an argument about him not having flaws. Every character in warcraft has flaws. If they didn't they would be boring and nobody would be intrested in there story.
The thing I'm arguing though, is how because of this whole crap with Garrosh now, ppl would gladly draw on Thralls flaws rather then see what good he is and why the horde is better with him leading them.
Post by
Adamsm
Don't be so god dam counter constructive. Irinida was discribing how the horde was weak under Thralls rule, and I gave perfect examples of why that was bunk, the complete opposite infact.Not really, you just mentioned all the times the Horde and Alliance fought together; when it was all races not just the orcs after all.
I'm not making an argument about him not having flaws. Every character in warcraft has flaws. If they didn't they would be boring and nobody would be intrested in there story.That's a good start; I don't think I've ever heard you willing admit Thrall has flaws.
The thing I'm arguing though, is how because of this whole crap with Garrosh now, ppl would gladly draw on Thralls flaws rather then see what good he is and why the horde is better with him leading them.Aye, and not everyone, both in WoW and among the players like that version of the Horde.
Post by
Skreeran
Irinida wasn't saying the Horde was weak, she was saying that you weren't taking Thrall's weaknesses into account as far as effect on the Horde goes.
I don't want Garrosh as Warchief, either, but Thrall isn't perfect either.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Irinida wasn't saying the Horde was weak, she was saying that you weren't taking Thrall's weaknesses into account as far as effect on the Horde goes.
I don't want Garrosh as Warchief, either, but Thrall isn't perfect either.
She actully said:
However, it seems that you fail to recognise the effect that Thrall's weaknesses will have on other things; the significance of these weaknesses if you would prefer.
Saying I'm unable to notice how Thralls action have that effect on others and leads to weakness, or a breakdown? Whats that saying if not saying his leadership causes weakness?
Also Adams, I didn't say orcs, I said 'horde', as in all races of the horde. Thats like saying only humans in the alliance.
And don't for that matter pull out a trump card of saying 'they couldn't have done it without the alliance' cause I could say exactly the same thing back. Your missing the point,
this
horde, lead by Thrall, have managed to fight some of the most powerful evils on Azeroth. They could have been a brutal army and killed the alliance, giving into the legion and becoming like those again, but they instead faught the legion, the scourge, the old gods, and beat them, something even the old horde could not have done.
Post by
Skreeran
1. What Irinida is saying is that you are not seeing how Thrall's weaknesses are effecting the Horde. If Thrall had had a firmer hand, we wouldn't have had the Wrathgate. The Broken Front might not have happened, or at least wouldn't have gone unpunished. The Forsaken wouldn't be testing blight on living people. The Blood Elves wouldn't be using mind control to control their people, etc. She's not saying that the Horde is weak, merely that Thrall's weaknesses and flaws DO have consequences in the Horde at large.
2. When Adams said that, he means that the Horde didn't fight C'thun, or Kil'Jaeden, or Kael'thas, or Illidan, or the Lich King alone. The Alliance and neutral forces played a large part as well.
3. I'm willing to bet you anything that Garrosh's Horde doesn't fall on it's face.
Post by
Adamsm
Oh of course. The same weakness that had the horde bet the Qiraji and C'Thun (retconned back in), that defeated Illidan and Kael'thas's forces, and beat back kil'jaeden at the sunwell, that battled the scourge and the lich king. Yes, Thralls horde must be having suffering from such weakness.
You seem to be making a false assumption based on what others say about this matter, that somehow the horde is weak because Thrall taught them to fight with honor instead of raging bloodlust.
When you say something like that, when only the orcs have ever had a problem with the bloodlust... that sounds like your talking about the orcs only.
Also Adams, I didn't say orcs, I said 'horde', as in all races of the horde. Thats like saying only humans in the alliance.
And don't for that matter pull out a trump card of saying 'they couldn't have done it without the alliance' cause I could say exactly the same thing back. Your missing the point, this horde, lead by Thrall, have managed to fight some of the most powerful evils on Azeroth. They could have been a brutal army and killed the alliance, giving into the legion and becoming like those again, but they instead faught the legion, the scourge, the old gods, and beat them, something even the old horde could not have done.It's true, without the Might of Kalimdor, with out the combined might of the Shattrah groups, without the Shattered Sun Offensive, and without the Ashen Verdict, all of which is the Horde/Alliance working together, the world would have fallen all those times. It's not a 'trump' card, it's the complete and unaltered truth. And yes, Thrall is the leader of the Horde... but he's still not perfect, no leader, not even my personal favorite, is perfect and above reproach... leaders like that die fairly quickly in Azeroth *cough*Kael'thas, the racist commander of the Night Elves during War of the Ancients, Garithos and others*cough*.
Post by
taurenmoo812
It's true, without the Might of Kalimdor, with out the combined might of the Shattrah groups, without the Shattered Sun Offensive, and without the Ashen Verdict, all of which is the Horde/Alliance working together, the world would have fallen all those times. It's not a 'trump' card, it's the complete and unaltered truth. And yes, Thrall is the leader of the Horde... but he's still not perfect, no leader, not even my personal favorite, is perfect and above reproach... leaders like that die fairly quickly in Azeroth *cough*Kael'thas, the racist commander of the Night Elves during War of the Ancients, Garithos and others*cough*.
Then as I say again, it seems what I'm saying is being misrep as me saying I think Thrall is perfect, where as it not that, but rather seeing he is the best the horde has in terms of maintaining itself, not as a bloodrage driven army, or the architypal bad guys, but as a group of anti heroes or dark heroes.
I'm going to say this too. I've got this growing fear for how the story is developing on one greater level what I seen so far. Through wotlk, Blizzard has pushed Garrosh to the forefront of peoples minds in the story. He speaks at trial of the crusade, appears in warsong hold, and even now has been placed in icecrown citadel to instill peoples idea that he's there.
And well this is happening, Thrall is being pushed further and further into the background, almost like blizzard is intensionally making him seem like the lackluster leader on purpose to further make people look Garrosh's way.
What I'm afraid of, and I do believe this is a very real thing that could happen, is that blizzard would intend to push Thrall into the background, like a sort hero of the past, with Garrosh as the present representative of the horde (Think Orgrim Doomhammer and Thrall in lord of the clans), their going to tweek Garrosh to be different, keeping him in the foreground, and in the end, kill Thrall in some heroic final act, just like that did Orgrim, and having Thrall pass the doomhammer to Garrosh, with Garrosh adopting a whole new character, and replacing Thrall completely.
You might think this is an irrational idea, but you can't deny the pure facts of why Thrall is being pushed into the background, why Garrosh is being made the most important figure to the horde, and the worst part, rumors that Garrosh would eventually change his current attitude, making him appear as someone there to stay.
But as I've said in the past, to me, Thrall is the most extraodinary character in the entire warcraft lore. I love all that he represents, and warcraft would have no structure for me if they made Thrall into a 'history repeating itself' martyr.
Post by
Adamsm
I'm going to say this too. I've got this growing fear for how the story is developing on one greater level what I seen so far. Through wotlk, Blizzard has pushed Garrosh to the forefront of peoples minds in the story. He speaks at trial of the crusade, appears in warsong hold, and even now has been placed in icecrown citadel to instill peoples idea that he's there.
And well this is happening, Thrall is being pushed further and further into the background, almost like blizzard is intensionally making him seem like the lackluster leader on purpose to further make people look Garrosh's way.Of course he does... he is the Leader of the Horde army in Northrend; if he wasn't there, that would prove everyone is right and he is good for nothing.
But as I've said in the past, to me, Thrall is the most extraodinary character in the entire warcraft lore. I love all that he represents, and warcraft would have no structure for me if they made Thrall into a 'history repeating itself' martyr.And we get that from the thousand and one posts you dedicate to him.
Post by
taurenmoo812
And we get that from the thousand and one posts you dedicate to him.
Look I know you get fed up with hearing it, but do you really have to be facetious about something I'm quite serious about?
Post by
Monday
And we get that from the thousand and one posts you dedicate to him.
Look I know you get fed up with hearing it, but do you really have to be facetious about something I'm quite serious about?
Being serious about something doesn't mean saying it all the time.
We know you like Thrall... you don't need to say it all the time.
I need to take my own advice...
Post by
Adamsm
And we get that from the thousand and one posts you dedicate to him.
Look I know you get fed up with hearing it, but do you really have to be facetious about something I'm quite serious about?
Are you though? I get you are deeply into the Thrall Lore.... but your going off on something we have no real idea about; your freaking out about Garrosh, #$%^&ing and moaning that he's going to transform the entire Horde into Fel Addicted freaks again, you feel the need to drag this love of Thrall through every thread there is that can have even the smallest connection at all, I mean, you attempted to transform a humour thread into a serious thing.
It seems to me your not 'serious' so much as complaining that Blizzard, who owns Thrall and all things connected to him, are going to rape your favorite character; do you hear the Cairne supporters crying and wailing because of that rumour about his death? I mean really.
Post by
taurenmoo812
And we get that from the thousand and one posts you dedicate to him.
Look I know you get fed up with hearing it, but do you really have to be facetious about something I'm quite serious about?
Being serious about something doesn't mean saying it all the time.
We know you like Thrall... you don't need to say it all the time.
I need to take my own advice...
Oh I see. So its alright from everyone else on these threads to talk half the dozen about subjects, lore and characters that they feel strongly about (Adams retconn labeling for example) but its not enough for me?
Maybe when they intend to kill of Magni bronzebeard, or replace him and your making posts of it about how strongly you feel about it, I'll remember that. What goes around comes around as is said.
It seems to me your not 'serious' so much as complaining that Blizzard, who owns Thrall and all things connected to him, are going to rape your favorite character; do you hear the Cairne supporters crying and wailing because of that rumour about his death? I mean really.
If you want an example of how it makes me feel, heres one. See I was a marvel comics fan for about 10 years, but mostly I was held on x-men and I'd buy every x-men comic I could, and I never got bored of reading them.
Then, one day a smartass writer, about 5 years ago, figured he would change around the structure of the x-mens story, rehash characters to be nothing like they use to be, and just twisted everything I knew and loved about that world. He even messed up some of the characters I admired greatly.
And well I tried my best to carry on reading them, it just felt like a hole in my chest, and I wasn't able to fill it.
I stopped reading them after that, it just didn't have anything left for me after that.
This is why I'm so strung up on things being changed beyond recognition. I'm not expecting some kind of sympathy for telling this, but at least seeing where I'm coming from. I don't want to see it happen again to a lore I happen to love.
and this isn't me talking about never changing anything. I'm on about things being changed beyond the elements that keep me held onto it
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
It seems to me your not 'serious' so much as complaining that Blizzard, who owns Thrall and all things connected to him, are going to rape your favorite character; do you hear the Cairne supporters crying and wailing because of that rumour about his death? I mean really.
If you want an example of how it makes me feel, heres one. See I was a marvel comics fan for about 10 years, but mostly I was held on x-men and I'd buy every x-men comic I could, and I never got bored of reading them.
Then, one day a smartass writer, about 5 years ago, figured he would change around the structure of the x-mens story, rehash characters to be nothing like they use to be, and just twisted everything I knew and loved about that world. He even messed up some of the characters I admired greatly.
And well I tried my best to carry on reading them, it just felt like a hole in my chest, and I wasn't able to fill it.
I stopped reading them after that, it just didn't have anything left for me after that.
This is why I'm so strung up on things being changed beyond recognition. I'm not expecting some kind of sympathy for telling this, but at least seeing where I'm coming from. I don't want to see it happen again to a lore I happen to love.
That's not the writers fault; that's comics, it happens no matter what company you read, hell look at DC, every few months/years you get the massive reset restart whatever to the world. I'd rather changing and evolving storylines then just everything stagnating and remaining the same. Do I like all the changes? Of course not, but if your so focused on what you like, your going to ruin something for those who prefer other things. Hell, I've hit the comic wall multiple times... but guess what, if you give the new stuff an actual chance and not moan and complain about it all the time you might actually like it; that's how I feel about the Ultimate's universe and the reset of it; they did a damn good move on that.
As for the normal universe: I hated Civil War, but I loved World War Hulk and Planet Hulk... so with out that ^&*!ty Civil War storyline, I would have missed out on watching the Hulk conqueror a planet and beat the hell out of most of the heroes of Earth when he got home. So, change can be bad sure, but it can also be great, but if you get so focused and so narrow minded about something, your just ruining it for yourself and your never going to be happy about anything in all honesty.
Post by
Skreeran
The same Horde that allowed a Dreadlord to start a coup; the same Horde that tested a biological weapon on prisoners; the same Horde that allowed the Grimtotems to operate at will, regardless of the fact that they were guilty of numerous terroristic tactics; the same Horde that allowed the Blood Elves to siphon magic from a Naaru and maintain a thought police; the same Horde that allowed the Broken Front to happen and go unpunished and unapologized for.
Et cetera. Thrall isn't perfect, and neither is his way of running things.
To be fair, I doubt any other Warchief would have cared about the BEs.
Also, Mind Control? Link to article? Sounds particularly interesting.
Well, here's a few instances that it seems a police state is in effect:
Harassed Citizen
Lyria Skystrider, Priest Ennas
, and
Priest Kath'mar
are all involved in said mind control event.
Post by
Monday
And we get that from the thousand and one posts you dedicate to him.
Look I know you get fed up with hearing it, but do you really have to be facetious about something I'm quite serious about?
Being serious about something doesn't mean saying it all the time.
We know you like Thrall... you don't need to say it all the time.
I need to take my own advice...
Oh I see. So its alright from everyone else on these threads to talk half the dozen about subjects, lore and characters that they feel strongly about (Adams retconn labeling for example) but its not enough for me?
Maybe when they intend to kill of Magni bronzebeard, or replace him and your making posts of it about how strongly you feel about it, I'll remember that. What goes around comes around as is said.
Except I'm not saying how much I like him all the time. Its a fact and we all know it, so I don't feel the need to repeat it.
And if he dies I will be mad, but it depends on who takes over. If its Muradin I'd be just fine. And I probably won't rant on it, probably just one post or so.
Edit: And Tauren I'm not trying to insult you or even give you advice, I'm just stating my opinion.
Post by
437763
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
meh, as long as garrosh isn't the permanent leader of the horde, I'm happy, if blizzard wishes to make thrall a more "in your face" character and make him the "tirion of cataclysm" fine by me, but what I don't want is garrosh being the permanent leader forever and ever.
if after cataclysm is over thrall regains his position as warchief of the horde, I can say I'm satisfied.
if blizzard dares to kill thrall, I may as well cancel my subscription............ I joined because of the lore, and mostly because of thrall, without thrall there is no wow for me.
anyways this isn't the only RPG I've played, nor is it the last one I've ever played.
Post by
taurenmoo812
meh, as long as garrosh isn't the permanent leader of the horde, I'm happy, if blizzard wishes to make thrall a more "in your face" character and make him the "tirion of cataclysm" fine by me, but what I don't want is garrosh being the permanent leader forever and ever.
if after cataclysm is over thrall regains his position as warchief of the horde, I can say I'm satisfied.
if blizzard dares to kill thrall, I may as well cancel my subscription............ I joined because of the lore, and mostly because of thrall, without thrall there is no wow for me.
anyways this isn't the only RPG I've played, nor is it the last one I've ever played.
Glad someone here at least sees where I'm coming from with this Rank. And I feel the same way, as I've explanned. To make a game and lore like warcraft someone extraordinary, you need extraordinary characters in it. Take that away, and its just another game to me, one I would have stopped playing years ago
Post by
Patty
Glad someone here at least sees where I'm coming from with this Rank. And I feel the same way, as I've explanned. To make a game and lore like warcraft someone extraordinary, you need extraordinary characters in it. Take that away, and its just another game to me, one I would have stopped playing years ago
Extraordinary is a relative term. Thrall is extraordinary to you, but not to others. Similarly, Garrosh is extraordinary to some people, but not you. It's all in the eye of the beholder. There will always be characters that someone regards as extraordinary in WoW.
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