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Forsaken Paladins
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Post by
Adamsm
A) he does not call the shots, tactically or anything. he is a figurehead and he is leading the fight in stratholme
B) he himself is, in a way getting manipulated. this may sound ridiculous, but when you think about it, what is Balnazzar doing? he has no true power of the orginization (military tactics are covered by abbendis) . he is stuck Fighting their fight! he is stuck fighting the scourge, and i dont care what you say, though the Scarlet crusade might accidently kill some innocent people in its pursuit of safety, the orginization lives to purge undead- not kill kittens. Balnazzar cant use the crusade for anything but the fight of azeroth- the destruction of the scourge. he, is stuck fighting their fight- not them fighting his.He set up Renault to kill Alexandros, putting the Ashbringer into the hands of the Scourge, and corrupting a weapon of great power. He's kept a war between the Scarlet's and the Dawn going, as well as forcing his men outwards to push back the Forsaken at all points, and working with Varithimas on a few extra projects. He also created the Headless Horseman, after corrupting and changing a strong resolute paladin into a paranoid schizo who killed his own family, then attempted to wipe out all of the Scarlet's. He is the power behind the Scarlet's, till his 'death', when Mel'ganis takes it over, and continues the plot.
Post by
Orranis
That's an interesting thought... A shadow paladin... Hmmm...
Would never be ingame, of course, but iteresting for loer and roleplaying purposes.
Again, I think that it is possible for the Forsaken to learn to use the Light with extreme dedication and training.
Are you seriously saying that? A necromantic paladin would never be in game?
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Vaeku
That's an interesting thought... A shadow paladin... Hmmm...
Would never be ingame, of course, but iteresting for loer and roleplaying purposes.
Again, I think that it is possible for the Forsaken to learn to use the Light with extreme dedication and training.
Are you seriously saying that? A necromantic paladin would never be in game?
That's actually a correct. A necromantic/shadow paladin will NEVER be in-game, because then it wouldn't be a paladin.
A paladin in Warcraft terms is essentially someone who wields the Light for both healing and offensive purposes, and wears plate armor.
So someone who wields shadow/necromantic powers, but wears plate and swings a hammer and such would be similar to a paladin but would NOT be a "shadow paladin". Because that's an oxymoron.
By that same logic though, a shadow priest is not an oxymoron because priest is a looser term. But paladin refers specifically to someone wielding the Light.
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
That's an interesting thought... A shadow paladin... Hmmm...
Would never be ingame, of course, but iteresting for loer and roleplaying purposes.
Again, I think that it is possible for the Forsaken to learn to use the Light with extreme dedication and training.
Are you seriously saying that? A necromantic paladin would never be in game?
That's actually a correct. A necromantic/shadow paladin will NEVER be in-game, because then it wouldn't be a paladin.
A paladin in Warcraft terms is essentially someone who wields the Light for both healing and offensive purposes, and wears plate armor.
So someone who wields shadow/necromantic powers, but wears plate and swings a hammer and such would be similar to a paladin but would NOT be a "shadow paladin". Because that's an oxymoron.
By that same logic though, a shadow priest is not an oxymoron because priest is a looser term. But paladin refers specifically to someone wielding the Light.I'm not sure I would agree with that.
In my opinion, a Paladin is merely a priest that has taken a hand on stance toward their faith. The majority of paladins are priests of the Light, but I don't think that means that that's the only way it could work. Necromancy is not a faith, but the Shadow is. If a soldier takes up the same responsiblity of defending the three virtues, representing their faith on the battlefield, and training others in the faith, then why can't they be called a paladin, if the only difference is the exact nature of their faith?
Not that I think that they would actually call themselves paladins, just like Blood Knights and Sunwalkers don't. But I certainly think that a shadow priest that takes up arms to protect his the three virtues and his people would be equivalent to a paladin.
Post by
123609
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Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
@Sigmafel: I understand. I'm not saying that Forsaken should be able to get paladins in game.
But I think a paladin-esque character could exist among the ranks of the Forsaken for the reasons I stated above.
What I'm saying is not the the Forsaken should get paladins. I'm merely saying that a Paladin-type character could possibly exist, from a strictly lore perspective, simply because the CoFS is similar in nature to the Church of Light. I'm discussing more whether it
could
happen, rather than whether it
should
happen.
Post by
Monday
I wouldn't mind seeing one at all, although they seem a little close to Death Knights for me, it would still be interesting.
Post by
Skreeran
The thing is, while they might seem aesthetically similar to Death Knights, they really aern't anything alike. They wear armor and fight with a big weapon and dark magic, and that's it. Death Knights do not tend to have moral codes; Death Knights use Necromancy rather than Shadow magic like a shadow priest; Death Knights have their runeblades; Death Knights were made that way by the Scourge, while a "Dark Paladin" would be of post Scourge Forsaken origin (and theoretically wouldn't even need to have died)...
Basically, if you take a death knight, take away the necromancy, the runes, the diseases, the ice motif, and give it some shadow priest spells, a code of morals, and a religious reason to fight, you would have something close to what I'm talking about.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
@Sigmafel: I understand. I'm not saying that Forsaken should be able to get paladins in game.
But I think a paladin-esque character could exist among the ranks of the Forsaken for the reasons I stated above.
What I'm saying is not the the Forsaken should get paladins. I'm merely saying that a Paladin-type character could possibly exist, from a strictly lore perspective, simply because the CoFS is similar in nature to the Church of Light. I'm discussing more whether it
could
happen, rather than whether it
should
happen.
Personally, I'm done discussing that it "could" happen because the Lore gives examples of it being a possibility while explicitly claiming that it is not. When there's a contradiction of that nature... yeah, unless Blizzard resolves it, we can't go anywhere.
Still, as a player, I can't say no to more choices. The only reason I say Forsaken Paladins should happen is because it's another choice. I think every race should have access to every class, personally as I've already stated so many times.
Yes, that includes Human Shamans. Or Forsaken Druids. Or etc.
Meh. That'd be kinda lame.
Edit: And its one example, Sir Zeliek, who is the exception, not the rule.
Post by
Vaeku
I think every race should have access to every class, personally as I've already stated so many times.
Yes, that includes Human Shamans. Or Forsaken Druids. Or etc.
Blech. This isn't D&D.
And its one example, Sir Zeliek, who is the exception, not the rule.
Well, this wouldn't be the first time that Blizzard based an exception for a new class (Nathanos Blightcaller...)
Post by
Monday
Well, this wouldn't be the first time that Blizzard based an exception for a new class (Nathanos Blightcaller...)
Why is he an exception? Humans were incredible trackers and hunters, just look at Grizzly Hills.
Post by
Melanora
I've seen a number of posts explaining away Forsaken Holy Priests by claiming "Game Balance", or "Mechanics," and pointing to the passage in wowwiki that backs up this argument, but has anyone ever considered that it might be the other way around, that Holy Forsaken are forbidden in WoWRPG because of mechanics and balance?
D&D has always had undead healed by negative energy and damaged by positive, so it could be that that carried over. Metzen has said that WoWRPG is canonical, but that doesn't mean that it's entirely pure of influences and concepts from the game system that might otherwise not have been added into the universe. The Monster Guide has the most examples of this.
Also, on the matter of the light and corruption, it seems that the Light doesn't necessarily care about the worthiness of a priest or paladin so much as it cares about how worthy that priest or paladin thinks they are.
Observe Scarlet Crusaders; crazed, hateful, zealots that nonetheless have the power to wield the Light.
Among the Blood Elves, the theft of power from M'uru wasn't a reaction to taint so much as it was a strike at the values of the Light that abandoned Quel'thalas in its direst hour. They abandoned the philosophy, but didn't want to give up the power.
Perhaps that poor Forsaken priest, still wearing the robes of a fallen order, is unable to reach out to the Light because he considers himself unworthy, rather than due to any inability innate to undead.
Post by
457614
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Melanora
Oh my. My entire post, invalidated by a single sentence?
Elaboration would be welcomed.
The Broken were separated from the Light with a mutagen, I suppose, proof that there are magical, demonological, or alchemical methods of taking the Light away, or at the ability to call upon it. Of course, the Light isn't some unthinking energy source, it apparently has a mind or intelligence. The naaru, most visible servants of the Light, are shown to be longterm planners. An argument could be made that Nobundo's mutation was capitalized upon to introduce Shamanism into Draenic society. The Light's Will be done, eh?
Post by
423967
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
The light is a force not an sentient entity it follows rules and flows the same way water does.Lore would not seem to imply that. Everything I've read would indicate that the Light is a sentient presence that simply doesn't talk.
"The Light does not abandon its champions."
It couldn't abandon anything at all if it didn't have some sort of consciousness.
as for a shadow paladin as an idea its an oxymoron , but the class of an armored warrior using shadow magic is not its a first generation deathknight, diseases weren't added till the 2nd and frost was added in the third with arthas being the first of the 3rd generations.
Either that or maybe this would be close
http://www.wowwiki.com/Graven_one
I'm aware of what a First Generation Death Knight was (although I had not heard of the Graven Ones, that's new to me). That's not at all what I'm talking about.
I'm not talking about a necromancer or warlock (Graven Ones are necromancers; First Gen DKs were warlocks). I'm talking about a warrior that has devoted themselves to the
Forgotten Shadow
.
Priest of the Light is to Paladin as Shadow Priest is to what I'm talking about, you might say. Whether you want to call the Shadow Paladins, Anti-Paladins, Dark Knights or whatever, the ide is the same. A normal paladin is a Priest of the Light who has taken up arms to defend his faith and uphold the three virtues. Why can't a Priest of the Shadow do the same?
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