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Wait... I won't be a tree anymore?
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Post by
23709
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Post by
404185
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Post by
23709
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Post by
Kibbles
/cry
TREE! NAOS!
NOT STUPID DEMON DIE DIE DIE DIE! TREE!
Post by
Supremacy
1. What I'm saying is you can't sit there and say that resto isn't about dealing damage.
This, again, might be a communication issue. I might be misreading this. Or we might just be talking about different ideas. You might be focusing on PVP. I'm more concerned, actually, with the game philosophy (if that even makes sense).
Because dealing damage is not the primary role for the restoration tree. In PVP, if you wanted to be able to both heal and do some damage/crowd control, you'd probably be running with some kind of hybrid spec for that. But that's not really what Blizzard is designing or balancing things around. Otherwise, I could have stayed running heroics with my Smite/Holy fire spec.
Burns through mana like a fiend, by the way.
2. Here's the rationale given by Blizzard, which I have to say I agree with:
A druid shape-shifting ends up taking on the role of a particular class...
Bears cannot heal, just like warriors/DKs cannot heal.
Kitties cannot heal, just like rogues/warriors/DKs cannot heal....
Boomkins cannot heal, just like mages/warlocks/hunters. ...
Trees cannot DPS/CC, but priests/shamans/paladins can. It is therefore apparent that all non-druids can do the basic roles in their spec, but the tree form does not do what the rest of the healers (what the form mimics) can.
Okay, see...the problem with this? If I agreed with everything you said, and all the conclusions you reached? It still seems...I guess the phrase is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". If the problem - the actual problem - is that they're upset that druids can't cast offensive spells in Tree Form? The obvious solution would be to let them cast offensive spells in Tree Form. Not to get rid of Tree Form altogether. Especially if you're going to give it back as a powered up cooldown that, I imagine, still wouldn't be able to cast offensive spells.
It's different comparing a boomkin to the other healer-casters than it is comparing the tree to the other healers, because ele's and spriests are the minority of the ranged classes, while the other healers are the ONLY other healers.
I don't follow. Are you saying they're different because not a lot of people play them, or because elemental shaman and shadow priests are unique in that they can also toss out occasional heals?
3. Your complaint seemed to be at the loss of one ability, so I was pointing to another class that lost four.
Ah. Okay. Maybe this is where I'm not being clear.
My issue is not so much with the loss of an ability. My issue is that they are changing a core mechanic of the class, something you always have to be careful with doing. The entire idea of the druid class is that you assume a form to become better at a given role, while giving up your prowess at other roles. All three of the other specs have forms that they can assume, and stay in.
My issue is that they are singling out restoration (not druids, just restoration druids, specifically) to just not have a form. Not changing the current form (which, in that case, I would be a little annoyed with for purely cosmetic reasons - like the night elf cats), but getting rid of it. They could have done something like give the druid a healing form, and then make the Tree of Life a cooldown. But they're just taking away the idea of a restoration shapeshifting form.
Blizzard said something like "My apologies if being a tree was your sole reason for being a druid", which is a surprisingly glib thing to say, given the source. What if my sole reason for being a druid was shapeshifting? The entire idea of the druid class?
That's my main issue. "All of you druids can shapeshift. Well...not you, healing druid. You go over there, away from the shapeshifting druids."
You also seem to have ignored what I actually said.
Well...yeah. You were bringing up irrelevant points. I can address them, if you really want.
As far as retribution paladins, they changed the Seal and Judgment abilities, sure. And made a lot of changes to that spec. Largely because it was needed. Not "needed" in the sense of "man, this class sucks" but in the sense of "in order to be competitive, there are too many different stats that have to be raised and toggled. This creates both a problem with playing effectively, and allocating stats for gear." But comparing that to what's happening to druids isn't really accurate. If they just got rid of Seals and Judgments altogether, and replaced it with a different mechanic, then, sure, that might be relevant.
And tweaking other abilities isn't relevant, either. Rogue poisons do less. That's not even in the same ballpark. That's barely the same sport. I don't even know why you brought that up. Changing mana to focus is a big thing, but all the shots and abilities and such are the same. X ability costs Y resource. The soul shard change is also a big deal, but the soul shards are still there. They just do something more than summoning demons and acting as reagents for a few spells. Honestly, they were closer to reagents than anything else. If they stacked to 100, you probably wouldn't even pay attention to them. It's nice to actually get to do something with them.
4. My mistake on this one, you mentioned a cooldown but didn't complain about what most people complain about it (the fact that HoTs are already active when you need the CD).
Oh. Well, to be fair? If druids still rely on HoTs in the new expansion, and you're promising a cooldown that pumps up healing? It's a valid concern that in order to benefit from their new ability, they'd need to recast all their HoTs. Especially if mana regen isn't going to be as liberal as it is now.
I mean, just because someone voices a concern doesn't mean it's a whining complaint.
5. Blizzard has given no indication that they are nerfing druids by removing ToL, because they're going to buff caster form to have the same healing power as you would have had in ToL. In other words, you're either QQing because of a piece of art (which won't matter in a raid), because you don't believe you will be balanced (which could have been a problem with or without tree form, we've seen 0 numbers thus far), or because you want to be unbalanced (e.g. the second paragraph in response 1 in this post) so you have an edge in getting raid spots.
Yeah, see, this is why I mentioned that earlier. Both the thing about concerns and complaints, and game philosophy. I'll try to clarify this again.
I'm not sure why you think I need an edge in getting raid spots (or that I even raid), but I assure you, that's not my concern. It might help out your argument if that was the case, but...that's not my intent.
In all honesty? I don't worry too much about numbers. Not because they're not important, but because they can just be tweaked. I look at numbers like the volume control on something. Too high? Turn it down. Too low? Turn it up. Resto healing too low? Turn up Wild Growth. Too high? Lower the coefficient from spirit. You'll eventually find a sweet spot.
But game philosophy is kind of a big deal to me. If I play as a class that shapeshifts, that is introduced to me as a shapeshifter, and where every other class can shapeshift and keep a permanent form? Then, yes, I'm going to raise an eyebrow if you say you're taking away my form. Especially if you're not replacing it with anything. Especially if your reasoning amounts to "we want you to be able to do other things in your form". Especially when none of the other druids can do other things in their forms.
And respectfully, if you think game philosophy and that sort of thing isn't important, then why do you think they even have different classes, at all? There's a reason this game has 11 classes, and not three.
Post by
404185
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Post by
Fiximol
I haven't read all the posts so perhaps this has been suggested before:
Why not just remove the restriction that doesn't let you cast other spells in ToL? If they think the penalty is too much, then why have it? If you want to preserve flavour, just make them able to hit only the nature spells in tree form. Change the wording to "Can only cast nature spells" similar to how SPriests can cast PW:S and remain in form.
I like the ToL form as a visual and I would be sad to see it changed to a CD. I am not a raider or a minimax-er.
Post by
skribs
If they let you remove the restriction to not cast other spells in Tree of Life form, then what is the form? There's no penalty for going into it (e.g. ferals are restricted to melee), then you're basically getting a talent point that says "make me look pretty."
Supremecy, I seriously doubt you PvP. Or if you do, I seriously doubt you handle encounters well. If you play on a boomkin or feral, do you occasionally heal yourself? If so, the same principle applies for resto. If you're never casting cyclone/roots in PvP, you're not doing all you can to win the match. There's also been several times when the enemy is close to dead while the healer is CC'd that I've popped a few wraths and it actually won us the match.
Resto tree doesn't mean "I can heal well, so I'm not doing anything else." It means "Healing is what I'm best at, so that's what I'll do."
Besides, I can think of plenty of PvE encounters I would be casting DPS on for at least one phase:
Heroics I HoT the tank and spam hurricane. It's sad because I'm often above 5th on the meter.
Kel'Thuzad phase 1, I'd help with the adds unless something gets close.
Razorscale or XT I'd help during ground (when she's trapped) or heart phase.
Faction Champs I'd be popping CC if things got close to me.
In all of those situations, it's extra mana and GCDs I have to spend to get back into tree form.
What I'm saying on the ranged vs. healer thing, is if you look at the boomkin its perfectly fine that they can't cast heals in boomkin form, because 91% of the other ranged specs (3 hunter specs, 3 warlock specs, 3 mage specs, and spriest) cannot cast heals in DPS form. 82% of them cannot cast heals at all. The boomkin form takes on the role of ranged, and thus you aren't giving up something that is basic to all ranged classes.
However, with the healers, they all have the option to be functional at the roles of damage/CC (not as good as a pure DPS spec, but they still can fulfill that role).
Whipping, it's just masochistic to want to have to recast an ability just to get back into form after casting something like CC.
Post by
404185
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23709
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324669
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Post by
skribs
Zet, on a side note, when Tree of Life first came out, there was no dual-spec and healing gear had +healing while caster gear had +damage. After a while, Blizzard adjusted it so that healing gear would also offer +damage (e.g. you may get 50 bonus damage on an item, or you may get 75 bonus healing and 25 bonus damage on a same-level item. I don't remember the exact conversion, but it was something like that). So you were
definitely
a full-time healer if you went for healing gear. Back then, even Paladins didn't attack much in a raid setting - there was no Judgments of the Pure. So back then, especially in raids, you had the same problem on all classes.
Now, however, Blizzard just gives Spell Power, which comes in the same amounts as +damage used to, only heals have a higher coefficient (to make up for the loss of the higher conversion on stat points). Combined with other changes to make healing gear viable as a DPSer, it makes sense that a lot of people switched to doing damage in other specs. I know I've farmed at times as a holy paladin or resto shaman (or I dual-spec). That's what they're trying to do for us.
Post by
492259
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Post by
TheJohan
I'm with stormvind on thisone.
And the posts in this thread... tl;dr'd most of them. Some valid points made, but sheesh...
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154284
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170988
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303152
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572885
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Post by
Fiximol
Let's discuss the concept of 'necessity' since it is what Blizzard is saying about resto not getting new spells in the preview ("You guys don't need any more spells!"). I agree - I think things should be added only when necessary (Then I read things like Leap of Faith, Healing Rain and Guardian of Ancient Kings and I scratch my head trying to rationalise the two statements. Whatever.) I am perfectly happy to see what they have cooked up in the new talent trees for resto or how they are going to change game play mechanics, for better or for worse.
However, is it out of 'neccesity' or class flavour for a druid tank to be in bear form? (all 3 other classes tank fine in their normal toon) or a melee DPS druid to be in cat form? Applying what has been said, these 2 classes don't get to look at their gear either: why are they not getting the form as a CD? (I am leaving moonkins out because they are the same as SPriests) What is the logic behind applying this to only the resto druids?
The main argument against this change (or QQ or whatever you want to call it) that I can see is not that removing the tree form makes us WORSE healers (no one knows how we'll turn out till live)- but that removing tree form (when there are a multitude of OTHER options) makes us feel like we are losing a large part of the flavour of the class.
The closest comparison I have for you: Why do warlocks want GREEN FLAME? Why are they getting it when we are losing OUR class 'flavour'? This is the injustice that those who love tree form are feeling.
For those who play because of mechanics (e.g. you like HoTs) and could care less about the flavour of the class, it will seem like a moot point. For those who say that we currently lose too much utility, remember that the loss is because of something that Blizzard has programed into the form and are perfectly capable of changing if that is their only purpose. Since when is it that they can't give a class a CD without taking something away?
The 'Is healing in tree form fun?' forum thread that is oft quoted is misnamed. It should have been "Is healing at the expense of giving up DPS and certain other spells fun?" - they are 2 different things.
One more thing, for those who say 'get over it, resto druids were in caster form in Vanilla', Skribs has correctly pointed out that back then SP was divided into two stats so I highly doubted you were DPSing away anyway.
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