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Seriously, how is WoW being dumbed down!
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Post by
monopoman
Heroic gear is the new hot gear.
They might as well give it a different color since that is the only gear now that takes true expertise and skill to get.
ICC 25 and 10 still hold some challenge in regular modes compared to the average player. But heroic gear is the new hot stuff and they wont' be handing that out to non-raiders anytime soon.
I really could care less they give out 245 gear I wear 251, 264 and 277 gear thanks very much. The only 245 item I wear is Deaths Verdict and you still can't get that without raiding.
I could care less about removing useless stats expertise is a boring stat that serves no purpose. Forcing people to not be able to replace gear easily in a raid is dumb. I shouldn't have to worry about stacking random stats just because it gives me more dps.
Now I know that I can just focus on getting the best gear possible without carrying around gear I might have to swap out just to stay hit capped or expertise capped.
Also if people don't want to take the time to experience fun content like Ulduar that is their own crap. I could care less I had fun in Ulduar when it mattered and I am glad I did.
Post by
423967
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
My beef isn't with raids being too easy. Raids are fine, IMO. My problem is with 5-mans. They may be trivial to most of you guys, but the fact remains that 5-mans are what most of the playerbase do when they're not raiding. It's the quickest way to gear up. I have a little problem with 5-mans being super-quick, but it's not the speed that's my main concern, it's the content. Again, it's all AoE; I want to have to do more in a 5-man other than spam AoE. I want to actually worry about which mobs have which skills, which mobs I should kill first, I want to worry about PULLING AGGRO for once instead of just going all-out. And, I dunno, maybe a little CC would be nice? I agree with the return for a need for CC; even if it's only for certain parts of certain dungeons. Necessary CC for every pull may be slightly overkill, but I'd still rather that than, "Okay guys, tank: keep aggro, healer: spam your heal button, and dps... don't fall asleep. We'll be out of here in 12 minutes. Cool? Cool."
I will have to disagree with you on the AoE point, however. The reason for that is fairly simple. We currently have raiders in gear 4 raids (somewhere between 50 and 77 iLvls above any gear you'll get in heroics) above the standard heroics (ICC 5-mans aside). As such, the average gear level of 80s is far, Far, FAR above that of the heroics currently in-game (again, ICC aside; those instances are actually fairly unforgiving unless you're decked out in full ToGC gear or higher).
It's because of this gear deficit between the current end-game content and heroic content that we have easy-mode, steam-rollable heroic illusion. Back when those heroics and Naxx were all we had at 80, it wasn't nearly so easy; they were still far less challenging than 70 heroics, obviously (we still didn't need CC, though it was actually helpful at certain points then), but they weren't as face-roll as they are now.
Post by
383613
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gnub
Most players these days don't have a clue and almost all of them wouldn't have a clue if it wasn't for addons like Omen. They turn up for ICC10 with no clue how their class works. They don't know their caps. They don't know their skills, their rotations or priorities. They don't know how best to gem their gear. They're clueless. Yet the game tells them they're ready.
The game throws resources at you like candy and allows you to punch through content using nothing more than brute force and ignorance.
It beats the alternative, however.
You might have the skill, but can't show it because your gear isn't good enough. The way it is now, is simply better, as it allows those with skill to show it. The clueless ones will, however, remain clueless.
Post by
xaratherus
The game throws resources at you like candy and allows you to punch through content using nothing more than brute force and ignorance.
Which is why there's all those pug raids, made up of DKs wearing spell plate and Mages with tons of Spirit gear and no hit rating, that have downed Arthas.
...oh, wait.
Post by
212775
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Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
uruzu
In TBC heroics, unless the tank is uber geared, using marking and CC on trash groups is a must if any of you remember.
I played a hunter back then. The difference between a skilled and not so skilled hunter depends on whether he/she can trap a mob continously while maintaining a high dps. Really satisfying if the party compliments you on doing this efficiently.
Now in wrath, all we need to do is AOE AOE AOE.
I agree the higher tier 25 man TBC raids are pretty inaccessible for casual raiders (myself included).
But the Kara key attunement --> Karazhan --> ZA isnt really that time consuming as many here mentioned.
And the most important thing is:
The feeling of accomplishment/progression
Dont get me wrong, im not saying LK is '$%^& dumbed down utter crap etc etc'. The quests are interesting, the storyline is great compared to other MMOs.
But i just dont like the mindless AOE in hcs.
And due to no character progression of any sort, naxx, ulduar, maly, OS are pretty much abandoned.
Post by
576863
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Silveringast
It seems to me that alot of the posters here are obsessing about gear... gear does not = skill and experience is not a drop from some random heroic dungeon...
You have to have skill and knowledge of game mechanics to do well with any class, this is not dumbing down...
Gear iLevels are the key, the better the gear the harder raid... if you have Heroic 25 man ICC gear then you are pretty good at what you do and you team with people that are pretty handy players too... are these people dumb because because people falsely believe that WoW is dumbing down... no they are not...
Even now I see people with experience and skill doing /2 to ask what is best for a slot, this item or that... if it was so easy to do that why would they ask...
The main point I see is that some players think they have the right to complain when things change... mmm, how conservative of them... the world (of Warcraft) continues to turn... so you better turn with it or fail...
ty for your time...
Post by
vic6string
So, for all these people complaining that no one has to run Naxx and Uld and Molten core before moving on up, I have this question: Do you do those on your alts? The game is YEARS old, and those instances are outdated. Whether you are new to the game, or leveling new alts, you just want to get to the end game.
Yes, years ago you grinded Molten core for months, but that is because THAT was the end game. Years from now people will be saying "man, I remember having to grind ICC for months" because THAT was the end game. Do you think people will be running ICC10, and then 25, and then heroics after Cata is released? There can only be ONE end-game, and all else will likely get skipped over until it can be solo-farmed for gold.
Post by
576728
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
"Time consuming does not equal dumbed down."
To a degree, though, it does. Years ago, you coudn't skip content. You couldn't hit 60 and go into BWL, nor could you hit 70 and go into Sunwell. In WotLK, however, you can. Within 2 weeks of hitting 80, you can be geared enough for ICC, and that's a problem. It's not a problem because the gear is more easily available; it's a problem because the availability of the gear has led to a dumbed down player base. Do you hear that...? It's the sound of the true meaning of that quote going right over your head.
The only difference between skills people attained back then was that early end-game content was so hard that people had to endlessly run pre-end-game dungeons over and over and over again until they learned their class enough (and got them geared enough) to run the real raids.
Now, instead of running stuff endlessly to get skilled and then gearing up, you run stuff endlessly to get geared up and then look up how to play your class.
The "dumbing down" of the overall player-base has nothing to do with changes Blizzard has made to the game and everything to do with changes in the overall attitude of people who play the game. Anyone who is willing to take time to learn how to play their class will learn how to play it. That's how it was in Vanilla; that's how it is now.
Nowadays, you have keyboard-turning, 71/0/0-specced, improperly-gemmed players with amazing gear right at their fingertips. They were not required, as past players were, the TIME CONSUMPTION necessary to gear themselves for high content - the time consumption that required them to learn their class. The gear was just handed to them. But they still won't get past the occasional PuG run of the top-end raids. If you don't like playing with people who don't bother to learn their class, don't. Join a decent raiding guild and you're good to go.
(There are other factors as well: homogenization of classes, simplicity of dungeons, easy bosses, etc. DPS is out of control, and everyone knows it. In 5-mans, bosses will die in their scripted animations; that is unacceptable. Leveling has also become ridiculously easy. People breeze through the lower levels - the levels where learning your class is really crucial.) I've brought it up before; I'll do it again. If you're trying to bring 5-mans into this, at least have the integrity of understanding the topic before you try to bring it up. DPS is not "out of control", not to the extent you seem to think it is anyway; if it were, no one would ever wipe in end-game raids and every one and their mother would have downed H Lich King by now.
The fact is, there have been 4 different end-game raids input after Heroics in this expansion. And 3 of those 4 have had some form of "hard mode" (Heroic versions of the raid in the last 2's case) by popular demand. These require higher levels of loot distribution to be fair to those who are geared/skilled enough to complete them.
So in terms of gear levels, there is Naxx 10, Naxx 25, Ulduar 10, Ulduar 25, Ulduar 10 (Hard Modes), Ulduar 25 (Hard Modes), ToC 10, ToC 25, ToGC 10, ToGC 25, ICC 10, ICC 25, H ICC 10, and H ICC 25. Are you trying to suggest that heroics should be scaled to keep up with DPS who are downing bosses in H ICC 25? That's just ludicrous.
Loot given out in Heroics is of iLvl 200. That means that anyone starting to gear up in them (disregarding badge farmers) will have a mix of items between iLvl 150-187ish. Heroic bosses are meant to be able to be dealt with by these people who are just starting and it's hardly fair to call DPS overpowered when you have people in a mix of 245-277 iLvl gear roflstomping the bosses.
And as for the
ridiculous
easiness of leveling: blame the fact most people don't want to spend
ridiculous
amounts of time to get to end-game. You may want to sit back and enjoy a nice slow leveling process every time you start an alt, but as the numbers show (and Blizzard knows) there aren't all that many who think like you do.
That said, I probably will never raid (see above re: time), so vic's comments about raiding, in particular, don't really apply. I would have missed those other raids anyway. It doesn't apply
to you
; as it
does
apply to a rather overbearing percentage of people who play this game, your personal experience doesn't "really apply".
Post by
576863
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
LOL I find it interesting that the debate of whether or not the game is being "dumbed down" whittles down to a debate over the definition of the phrase.
Ok, the player-base isn't being dumbed down; they're just worse players. No, most of that had nothing to do with the actual game being dumbed down. As I said in my post.
The question of the thread wasn't, "How is the overall WoW populace getting dumber?" The question was, "How is WoW being dumbed down?"
Or, in the words of goshad, "nice dodge bro".
Post by
Snownation
They've definitely dumbed it down.
Questing used to be quite tedious, and many of us leveled the hard way.
No heirlooms, no RAF
No exclaimation marks or question marks on the minimap
No shiny sparkling things for quest items
No quest tracker without the use of addons
60% mounts at 40, and 100% at 60.
You can't argue that they just made it simpler by adding the above, because, part of the quest is to learn how to find your quest objective, and the location for it, and how to acquire it, and that's by reading the quest text.
Now, all you need to do is just accept the quest, press M, and go to where it tells you to go. Absolute disregard to the "story" of the quest text.
Why not just automate the whole leveling sequence instead?
Did they make it easier to quest? Sure, that's agreeable. Did they dumb it down, also yes.
My definition of dumbing it down is acquiring something with less effort than before. Faster or simpler isn't the point here, it's less effort to complete the same thing.
Post by
Monjaru
I'm guessing you missed the whole debate of "simplification =/= dumbing down", huh?
They've definitely dumbed it down. No, they havn't.
Questing used to be quite tedious, and many of us leveled the hard way.
No heirlooms, no RAF
No exclaimation marks or question marks on the minimap
No shiny sparkling things for quest items
No quest tracker without the use of addons
60% mounts at 40, and 100% at 60.
And overly tedious quests improve intelligence... how, exactly?
Everything you listed were examples of things Blizzard did to make questing less of a hassle. They were implemented for ease of use. It doesn't take any extra brain power to wave your cursor all over the screen to find quest items rather than looking for a sparkling object; that just makes it more annoying.
You can't argue that they just made it simpler by adding the above, because, part of the quest is to learn how to find your quest objective, and the location for it, and how to acquire it, and that's by reading the quest text. Oh no? Watch me. They
just
made it simpler by adding the above.
Now, all you need to do is just accept the quest, press M, and go to where it tells you to go. Absolute disregard to the "story" of the quest text. Great example of Lore Buff vs The World. Most people didn't bother with the storyline behind quests anyway. If you want to follow along with the story, you're still perfectly able to. Just read the quest text and you can fill yourself in on the story.
Why not just automate the whole leveling sequence instead? Because modding the game to play through for you is against the ToS? >.>
Did they make it easier to quest? Sure, that's agreeable. Did they dumb it down, also yes. Did they make it easier to quest? Yes. Did they dumb down the game? Hardly.
My definition of dumbing it down is acquiring something with less effort than before. Faster or simpler isn't the point here, it's less effort to complete the same thing. The internet's definition of "dumbing down" is an over-simplification of a task so as to suit the needs of the unintelligent.
The equation goes something like this: Simplification =/= Dumbing Down ; Simplification =/= Over-Simplification
You can agree with that, right?
Post by
Poremm
# Stranglethorn Vale
* Saltscale Tide-Lords no longer have frost nova
* The fear on Mosh'ogg Lords is reduced
# Lowered the fireball damage of Defias Pillagers
# Increased the cooldowns on the heals of Kurzen Medicine Men
If this is not a direct example of making it easier, i don't know what is.
PS. the 'dumbening' started around 2.3.
Post by
pgh1980
A) While I didn't play Vanilla WoW, talking with friends who did, there were dumb players back then, who just happened to have a lot of free time and the know how to use the internet to look up what they needed to do. While I won't argue it's probably more common place today to see people running around that have no clue, it's not exclusive to the direction the games been going. If a player is doing horrible, kick them. Or tell yourself it's community service to carry them. Either way, they're usually found out and dealt with.
B) I agree with people that epic gear is no longer epic. But I believe there's good reason for this ("good" being a relative term): As has been said many times before, Blizz is a business that has to keep the majority happy (within reason). Players want their toons to have epic gear, especially when you deal with the fact that some elitist players will judge others on gear alone and make it a point to harass players with lower gear. In making epics more attainable, Blizz caters to the casual player base in helping them to feel like they've really achieved something in having all purple gear. That being said, some epics are obviously more epic than others, so there's still ways of telling who's got the best stuff.
C) The problem with leveling, or at least how it's been for me, is that the experience varies so drastically by class, especially when leveling solo. With my Paladin (my only 80), it was a breeze and a lot of learning my class was with research. My DK seems to be having a relatively easy time as well. My mage on the other hand (again, while going solo) has been having issues. BUT, it's caused me to have to learn aspects of the class in game. Things like CC, when to pop CDs, survival tricks, etc. Unfortunately, Blizz can't make every quest class specific, so in that respects, leveling will be easier for some more than others. Also, once you've done any quest enough, it's going to be easy for you, at least without self-imposed challenges (like doing it maybe in all grays; or blindfolded).
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