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Seriously, how is WoW being dumbed down!
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Post by
444887
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Post by
crsh1976
I have been farming ICC for a month and all I have to show for it is some rep rings and a 251 staff, the game for me is about being lucky, all I get on bosses now are EoF's, which can take ages to save.
The part about being lucky was always there, but I guess only old-timers who raided past BWL back in the vanilla days can remember how farming a raid instance for 1 month meant very little in terms of gear acquisition. Hell, it took a month to learn a single boss fight in AQ40 or Naxx40.
Despite that, I'm not sure I agree the game was "dumbed down", it's simply been made a little less time-consuming compared to the original version, many other ways to get quality gear were added and such. I remember the times where farming for repair money and flask materials took hours for each night of raiding, and if your guild raided 5-6 nights per week, I'll let you do the mats how much time you had to sink in the game to be able to raid successfully.
For the record, I DON'T miss those days, it was fun back then but I guess I really grew out of it.
Post by
pgh1980
The part about being lucky was always there, but I guess only old-timers who raided past BWL back in the vanilla days can remember how farming a raid instance for 1 month meant very little in terms of gear acquisition. Hell, it took a month to learn a single boss fight in AQ40 or Naxx40.
Yes, but these days thanks to YouTube and the large amount of WoW related websites, most players expect other players to know boss fights before going into a dungeon/raid. I think the days of learning as you go are pretty much behind us and this is no fault of Blizzard, but instead really the WoW community.
Post by
363739
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Post by
576863
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Post by
Monjaru
This is the mentality that comes along with the dumbing down of WoW. haha Just as your lack of ability to present an unbiased point that is actually backed by facts has come along with the dumbing down of the human populace, amiright?
Still waiting for you to stop dodging my posts, btw.
Post by
576863
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
What would you like me to address? I'd be happy to How about my entire post on the last page which you simply dismissed with an assumption that had nothing to do with the point I was making? That'd be a start.
Human populace gets dumber > Blizzard must cater to the (now dumber) populace > things become easier > dumb people are happy > dumb people give Blizzard money Yeah. Only that isn't at all what is actually happening to WoW.
What
is
happening to WoW:
Blizzard is slowly tweaking certain parts of the game to make it less tedious and annoying. To put simply, they are making it so people don't have to pour their entire lives into the game in order to actually participate in end-game (which many people consider to be the most fun part of the game; the place where the game "really starts", as some would put it).
What is
not
happening to WoW:
Blizzard is not taking major points in the game and simplifying them to point that no thought is even required in order to complete them anymore.
Again, I will state (the obvious): Simplification =/= Dumbing Down ; Simplification =/=
Over
-Simplification
I can honestly assert that the WoW populace is running a parallel with the real world's - that is, the people are becoming exponentially less intelligent, and the world around them is somehow catering to this. If anything, WoW is catering to a rise in laziness among WoW players, not their IQ, or lack thereof. The game still takes just as much intellectual capacity as it always has. If you can't understand that, whatever. I'm done repeating the same !@#$ just so you can ignore it or come up with some example that has no relevance and claim it makes you right.
I consider WoW to be the sum of its players. So, if they're dumbing down, I consider WoW to be dumbing down Just as in any human-based group on the planet today, there are morons, and there are intelligent people. WoW is no different. There was a distinct split between these two groups in Vanilla, just as there is now.
Post by
576863
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
I agree with you: the tedium argument holds. However, by that logic, what about this?
Should Blizzard make it so that you don't have to run back to your corpse after dying? After all, running back is tedious.
Should Blizzard take away repair bills? After all, they are simply tedious. If you were to take away those two things, you're doing more than simplifying the game; you're removing the reason to fear (or at least dislike) death in-game. That's where it moves from simplification to over-simplification; hence, the whole argument of "simplification vs dumbing down".
Should mobs be weakened? After all, mobs that kill you are simply tedious.
What about mana? Running out of that stuff sure is tedious.
Should Blizzard simplify quests further? After all, reading them was tedious, and they "fixed" having to do that. (I would, however, go out on a limb to say that you'd agree that reading a quest requires more intelligence than...not reading it, lol.) Maybe now we can have an auto-quest feature? You're still completely missing the point. Everything you listed are examples of what the extremists seem to
think
is happening to WoW, when it's really not. If any of that happened, WoW
would
be being "dumbed down" rather than being "simplified". Which is exactly why Blizzard won't do any of that (I hope), and why people should stop complaining about things that haven't actually happened.
The point that I was attempting to make was this: at some point, that tedium
helped.
At first this sounds a bit odd, I know. But the point is that at some point, a decent amount of time had to be sunk into your character in order to properly learn your class. I'm sure you won't deny this. That time is now bypassed. Yes, you can still learn to play properly, but you can do nearly as well without having to do so with the implementations Blizzard has made recently. No, in all honesty it didn't. The tedium separated the "hard core", devoted WoW players from the casuals. Nothing else.
You can swing a golf club around all you like, but if you're not doing it right, you're still never going to do it like the pros do. The same can be applied to WoW. You can run around wacking things with your sword as much, and as often, as you like, but you still won't improve unless you do something to figure out what you're supposed to be doing.
Back then, the tedium allowed people you played with to say, "Hey, you're not doing that right; if you do it this way, your DPS/HPS/TPS will get higher and be more consistent and efficient." Now, we have multiple databases and forums all over the internet where you are able (and oftentimes expected) to look up such information required to learn your class.
Can you tell me how getting help from friends requires any more brain power than doing internet research to figure your class out? Both require you to figure out the kinks and how it'll work out best for you personally through in-game trial and error; the latter is simply less time consuming and generally gets players meeting the gaming standards faster and more efficiently.
Technically, you're right. Then why argue?
WoW isn't getting dumber. Ladies and gentlemen! He's finally starting to figure it out!
It's just getting simpler. But it's simplicity is stemming laziness, and that laziness is stemming ignorance. (And, if your comments are any indicator, hostility.) None of that matters because Blizzard isn't actually doing anything to cater to the ignorance; only the laziness portion of that.
And I'm only hostile when I have to resort to constant repetition to get a point across... and it
still
doesn't sink in.
Post by
576863
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Post by
Monjaru
Someone linked a patch note where mobs were weakened/had abilities removed (I think a page or two ago.) I was so infuriated that I beat my wife. Firstly, I gotta say, I had to look at this part for a good 2-3 minutes before moving on. I'm not entirely sure if you're serious, but if you're beating your wife over WoW's patch notes, this is not your game. Go find a new hobby. Seriously.
Secondly, I don't recall all of what was listed in those notes, but from what I remember it was things like lowering the power of Defias Pillagers' fireballs (which could essentially 3-shot you at the same level as them); that's not dumbing the game down, that's nerfing moves that have no reason to be as powerful as they are. It's called "balance."
Long-ass paragraph I'll leave out to keep my post from dragging... If they are planning to fix it in Cataclysm, then it is a completely useless point. Things like this (mana regen, potential dps increases/decreases of changing certain talents/spells/etc) are constantly fluctuating in a game like WoW, they have their ups and downs. Mana regen for healers in end-game is currently far too powerful; they are seeking to remedy the situation in the upcoming expansion. End of discussion.
Although I didn't use this example: raids used to take days (sometimes even weeks) to properly learn a new encounter. However, I use this example with some skepticism, as 40-man raids were different than their newer 25-man counterparts.
Though having less people should require more coordination, yes?
Um... no? Generally, more people = more coordination.
And raids still take a decent amount of time to figure out. How many guilds have actually downed H Lich King so far? I don't know the exact number, but I'm fairly certain that on a world-wide scale, I can count the number on my fingers and toes.
Hmm. (This is the noise I make when I ponder the meanings of life and the universe.) So, people should be required to use outside resources? What about the people that don't? Judging by those very special encounters I've had with other players, I'm betting that a majority don't. (Admittedly, there are a lot of big words on these "websites" and "forums.") A majority didn't back then, either, but at least the game was challenging enough to make them learn a little on their own. I never said I agree with the requirement to use outside sources; only that for a number of people out there, it exists. I'm not entirely sure if I agree or not with the way WoW end-game learning goes or not, I don't really do enough of it to have a proper opinion, anyway.
Point is: whether people are required to use outside sources or not, the amount of brain power required to learn fights and such hasn't diminished since Vanilla. Certain fights might be figured out quicker because of some form of repetition (which is inevitable; there is only so many new things Blizz can add to encounters before there's nothing new left to add), but not everyone who plays now played back in Vanilla, so the learning will still need to happen from some source, be it human or database.
You asked me to, good sir. Yes, but if I was right on any given point, then why argue? Is it just embarrassing to admit in public when you're wrong about something, or did you just figure I wouldn't take notice of you skipping an entire post of problems you weren't able to address?
I do love theatrics. Small world. Me too. I'm actually going to college for Theatre next year. (Just a little fun-fact to keep the hostility at bay.)
So catering to laziness is acceptable? Or are you saying that this is merely an argument of the technical meaning of words? No, I haven't yet said anything about my belief (or disbelief) that any of this is "acceptable." All I'm doing is differentiating between what people are complaining that Blizzard is doing, and what Blizzard is actually doing.
If so, "repetition" would technically mean that you made your point more than once before entering hostile-mode. In fact, you were hostile from the very first post. Well, I just went back and checked my first 3 posts. None of them were at all hostile, as you say. I also checked my 4th post (my 1st directed at you), and it wasn't remotely hostile until the last couple paragraphs where I did seem slightly agitated.
But even then, it was from having to repeat information. Maybe not to you directly, but if you took the time to read the thread before entering (at least most of the thread), you might not have said a number of the things you said in the first place.
Post by
lonewarrior
I've been reading this thread from the start so let me jump in with my 2 cents.
I don't think "dumbed down" is the exact term to use...but the game has turned from it's original platform and catered more to what I would call the xbox live crowd. The short span..give it all to me now player.
Now if this game was so tedious as some people claim it to be..then how did it ever get so popular.
Vanilla WoW catered to a certain type of player they enjoy the flow of the game..you either liked it or you didn't...the same way some people like the pace of a game like chess and other prefer Call of Duty.
Now I will admit Blizz has made some positive changes...the mount level, randoms were things that lowered the amount of time being unproductive...with out making it easier. Heirlooms were a nice reward for leveling a character to 80 and encouraged rolling new toons.
Where things went wrong in my opinion is when they started nerfing stuff and skipping over entire raid dungeon contents to speed people to the front of the line.
Why is it that the original concept "progression" no longer foundation of this game.
Why don't you, as others have mentioned, when turning 80 have to do Naxx, OS, EOE, Ulduar etc in order to get to end game contents. It appear the majority of today's players feel as if your not in ICC your a fail. Before any says "they are still there to be done"..right...just try to organize a pug for Naxx these days. For most people its a waste of time.
Epic gear use to mean just that..it took an epic effort to acquire it. It set you apart and was a source of recognition. Now it's a fashion trend. Now the response of many might be who cares..it's just a game. True. I guess it's a sign of times...maybe it's the difference between older players like me and the younger crowd. when I was kid playing little league..they only gave trophies to the best players or champion team. Nowadays they give trophies to the whole league for participating...sort of like WoW. :)
Peace
Post by
chowderman
Not sure if this was already mentioned or not, although things may seem easier or "dumbed down" as it applies to raids anyway, there are heroic and hard modes. They were designed to Challenge the Content, while regular modes are to See the Content.
There are aspects that still remain difficult, and despite even in the upcoming expansion, gear and stats, at least on our front end become much simpler, even though we aren't going to be seeing those certain stats anymore, it doesn't mean they won't be in the background running silently as they come part of the gear.
And who knows, some people will most likely will find if certain base stats that WoW is returning to will affect the secondary stats people strive so hard to raise, i.e. ArP, AP, SP, EXP, MP5.
I mean take Spirit for instance, the stat many would say is completely uselss, to any class. By itself...yeah, its trash, but combined with intellect and enough of it will have your caster getting 500mp5, not too mention any life gain that goes with it.
But anyway, just because the frontend of WoW may becoming simpler...the backend is still running.
Post by
64022
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lonewarrior
I think an experience I had in F.O.S the other day best exemplifies the term "dumbing down".
I have recently level a rogue to 80, mostly through pvp. Decided to shoot for some pve gear to help my guild. My main is a tank..so I have developed a habit for crowd control mentality. So granted my dps abilities might not be up to snuff. Anyway...as we were going through the dungeon..I found myself constantly having to CC an add that was going after the healer due to the tanks poor aggroing ability. His gear score was very low so I figured he was a fresh 80 DK and would appreciated my assistance with some CC control. About the 3/4 of the way through the dungeon he pauses to comment that his main is a rogue and couldn't believe how pitiful my dps was. Unfrigginbelievable. Here I was keeping him alive since with his paltry gearscore should the healer have gotten interrupted more then once would have meant him getting one shot. On top of that he wasn't even marking the targets which was causing everyone to pull.
Which brings me to my point. The lost art of class skills. Back in vanilla WoW, tanks had to tank..they had to learn rotation of target...adds had be CCed by party members. A player had to learn every ability of his toon and apply it. The fights required more then just a gear score check and dps number like today. Does a person think a rogue was initially given all these cc abilities for nothing.
Almost all of the new dungeon/raid fights have practically removed all forms of CC.
It's the reason Faction Champs in TOC, always seem the to be the fight raids get stuck on..its amazing how many of today's player have no idea how to CC the fight. It's all wham..bam..thank you mam.
Funny part is I was actually enjoying what I was doing as rogue during the FOS fight..using fan of knives to cripple and poison adds..using disarm, exposed armor and stunning casters to help the party. Had I not done that with this particular party..we would surely had wiped more then once.
Yet for the most part this approach is all for naught in today's atmosphere. A rogue not on top of the melee dps chart..."fail". So much of today's class play style has become mundane and one dimensional. Dumbed down.....ooops, there's that phrase again.
Post by
361800
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Post by
389643
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Post by
qwertydood
IMO the game is not getting easier or harder, it is just getting more accessible. I'm sorry if this was already addressed but I really don't feel like reading the essays that people wrote up above my post.
With greater accessibility comes more players who actually have no idea how the game works (generally evidenced by insisting that their "skill" makes up for their being in a ICC raid with 4k GS or some other BS like that) and hardcore raiders either find a suitable guild and progress like they always do, or get mixed in with all the people who don't know what is going on, just that they dinged 80 and want gear fast. This is generally why people think the game might be harder.
As everyone has already said, I'm sure, the amount of websites and videos that explain boss fights make progression for guilds incredibly fast, as there is little to no need for experimentation unless you have an odd raid makeup. The reason that top level guilds get world firsts so quickly is because of the beta testing they take part in and, honestly, because the fights are working as intended. Countless fights have been glitchy or bugged upon initial release in vanilla and BC.
TL:DR -- Its easier to get into raiding, but not easier to do the raids themselves. If you are getting nostalgic about having to learn fights on your own with your guild, just tell them to go live in a hole during beta testing and then come out when you want to go after the new content.
Post by
1029958
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