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Incest should be legalized
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Post by
Laihendi
This is Laihendi's belief. No, he isn't interested in practicing incest himself, he thinks it's gross, but he also doesn't see anything actually wrong with consensual sex between two people mature enough to deal with it. Massachusetts issues a penalty of up to 20 years in prison for consenting adults engaging in sexual activity if they are closer than first cousins, and in Hawaii people get up to 5 years in jail for sexual penetration of certain blood relatives and even in-laws (
source
). If two adults are old enough to be able to have sex according to the law, then they should also have the freedom to choose who they want to have sex with, and they should be able to have sex with any consenting person who is also old enough to legally have sex.
Some people say that incest should not be allowed because of pregnancies. People generally have sex for pleasure and recreation, not for procreation. If people believe that having producing children through incest in wrong, then that is what they should have outlawed, not incest for pleasure and recreation, because the two are unrelated. But should the government have the authority to say who is allowed to have children, and with who? Laihendi does not think so. By saying that incest should not be allowed to prevent pregnancies, people are saying that children born out of incest are undesirable and should not be allowed into the world. These children may end up with medical conditions due to the incest, but by choosing who can reproduce with who in order to produce more desirable offspring, the government is promoting a social system based on what they believe to be genetic superiority, which Laihendi believes to be morally wrong.
Many people are disgusted by the idea of incest, as Laihendi said, he thinks it is gross himself, but there is no rational reason for why it should be illegal. Picking your nose is gross, but it shouldn't be illegal. This is an extreme example, but eating poop is absolutely disgusting, but if someone really wants to do that in their private time, they should be able to, because they are not hurting others by doing it. So Laihendi isn't saying that people
should
practice incest (he's also not saying they shouldn't), he's just saying that people should be allowed to practice it.
Laihendi would like to know what others think about this.
Post by
Adamsm
No it shouldn't; as any number of parents who sexually abuse there children would merely site it as being an incestuous relationship.
Post by
Patty
No it shouldn't; as any number of parents who sexually abuse there children would merely site it as being an incestuous relationship.
Precisely. People like Fritzl would get away with molestation and rape quite easily, especially since in some cases the victims can be indoctrinated into believing that they're not being raped and never have been.
Post by
Laihendi
Sexually abusing any kid is illegal, and should be. Consensual sex between adults should not be illegal, and it is not abusive.
Post by
Patty
Sexually abusing any kid is illegal, and should be. Consensual sex between adults should not be illegal, and it is not abusive.
As I said, indoctrination from a young age
can
make someone think they're not being raped. That doesn't mean that they are not being raped or abused. Legalising incest would make the few cases such as Fritzl harder to bring justice upon.
Post by
351418
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
The big problem with incest is grooming. A boy several years older then his sister could manipulate and groom her into thinking he is the one for her, and this can start at a very young age. This could also happen with a father and a daughter. The girl would never really get a choice because she has been brainwashed into thinking "he is the only one for me".
Precisely.
Post by
Laihendi
This type of brainwashing and manipulation should not be allowed, Laihendi agrees, but an innocent activity should not be outlawed because it is believed that it could indirectly cause bad things to happen. The crime itself, the act of manipulating someone into having sex, is what should be outlawed, and that law is what should be enforced. People can be educated so that they are aware of this type of manipulation. And honestly, anyone sick enough to manipulate their kid into having sex with them will do it regardless of whether incest is legal or not.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
This type of brainwashing and manipulation should not be allowed, Laihendi agrees, but an innocent activity should not be outlawed because it is believed that it could indirectly cause bad things to happen. The crime itself, the act of manipulating someone into having sex, is what should be outlawed, and that law is what should be enforced.
People can be educated so that they are aware of this type of manipulation.
Evidence is needed to prove that they were actually abused. If they're brainwashed, said evidence will be non-existant. Also, at the bolded part; what do you propose, exactly? Education from birth on being groomed by your brother/cousin/dad/uncle/other relative? That's hardly practical, and pretty much kills the already flimsy blissful naïveté of young children.And honestly, anyone sick enough to manipulate their kid into having sex with them will do it regardless of whether incest is legal or not.
And legalising incest is somewhat condoning it.
Post by
Laihendi
If the These children may end up with medical conditions due to the incest, but by choosing who can reproduce with who in order to produce more desirable offspring, the government is promoting a social system based on what they believe to be genetic superiority, which Laihendi believes to be morally wrong.
It's not about genetic superiority, it's about genetic diseases which it can cause. Really horrible #$%^ like Tay-Sachs.
I also believe referring to yourself in third person is morally wrong.
If the government is trying to prevent these children from being born due to potential genetic diseases, they are doing so because they believe a child without these diseases is superior to one with them, and does not want to risk having a baby with them. Laihendi believes people would be irresponsible to have a child from incest, but he does not think the government should have the authority to say who is allowed to have children with who, he believes that should be a personal responsibility.
And Laihendi's method of talking is unrelated to the subject of this thread.
Post by
Laihendi
This type of brainwashing and manipulation should not be allowed, Laihendi agrees, but an innocent activity should not be outlawed because it is believed that it could indirectly cause bad things to happen. The crime itself, the act of manipulating someone into having sex, is what should be outlawed, and that law is what should be enforced.
People can be educated so that they are aware of this type of manipulation.
Evidence is needed to prove that they were actually abused. If they're brainwashed, said evidence will be non-existant. Also, at the bolded part; what do you propose, exactly? Education from birth on being groomed by your brother/cousin/dad/uncle/other relative? That's hardly practical, and pretty much kills the already flimsy blissful naïveté of young children.And honestly, anyone sick enough to manipulate their kid into having sex with them will do it regardless of whether incest is legal or not.
And legalising incest is somewhat condoning it.
If a parent is sick enough to brainwash his/her kid into having sex with him/her, then he/she is going to do so whether it is legal or not. Education can begin in elementary school, and that would just have to be early enough. Legalizing incest between consenting adults does not condone incest in child abuse, just like legalizing sex between any other consenting adults does not condone any other type of sexual or child abuse.
There are going to be bad people who do bad things, no matter what. The government can't control everything, and it needs to give people some responsibilities of their own.
Post by
Heckler
It would be hard to find an incestuous relationship that did not involve some sort of coercion or manipulation. Families necessarily have power-structures, parents have the authority, older children have more privileges, etc. Any intimate relationship that evolves from this sort of structure is likely tainted in some way (aptly called 'grooming' above).
If two people are adults, and have never met before, and they happen to end up being related, I don't think that should be outlawed (outlawing to prevent diseases in offspring would be akin to outlawing pregnancy above age 35 due to a higher rate for Down's -- I don't think thats something the law should be involved in).
But any intimate relationship which comes from what we would call a 'normal' family life almost certainly has some taint of manipulation or coercion -- I assume this is the reason for the laws' existence.
Post by
Laihendi
But that law isn't fair for people who consent to sex and are not subjected to manipulation. Laihendi doesn't think there should be laws that cannot be enforced fairly.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Laihendi
If the government is trying to prevent these children from being born due to potential genetic diseases, they are doing so because they believe a child without these diseases is superior to one with them, and does not want to risk having a baby with them.
Yes, a live child is superior to a dead one.
Laihendi believes people would be irresponsible to have a child from incest, but he does not think the government should have the authority to say who is allowed to have children with who, he believes that should be a personal responsibility.
I don't think your average incestuous person realises the implications of what they're doing. The government do, the law protects society as a whole and any possible children.
And Laihendi's method of talking is unrelated to the subject of this thread.
It makes you sound like a tool.
If a live child is superior to a dead one, then one could make the argument that people should be making as many babies as they can. Laihendi disagrees with this, but he thinks it still points out how silly of a statement that is.
The government might think it knows what is best, and in many cases it might, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed to take away someone's right to love. If the problem is with incestuous sex for procreation, that is what should be illegal, not incestuous sex for pleasure and recreation.
And once again, Laihendi's method of talking is unrelated to the subject of this thread.
Post by
Heckler
But that law isn't fair for people who consent to sex and are not subjected to manipulation. Laihendi doesn't think there should be laws that cannot be enforced fairly.
I don't think your average incestuous person realises the implications of what they're doing. The government do, the law protects society as a whole and any possible children.
I think Dr. Lore's reply sums up my thoughts on it. The law's existence is less about enforcement, and more about society officially labeling incest as "wrong" (because of the high chance of manipulation/coercion) by making a law against it (like a suicide law, perhaps). Not to prevent the sickos from doing it, but to prevent it from wandering into the realm of 'acceptable' in the non-sickos (and perhaps to open a path to punishment where one didn't already exist).
Maybe that's not what laws
should
be for, but as you said -- someone who is sick enough to break the law will do it whether it's illegal or not. The same logic probably applies to murder, and robbery, and everything else -- but the laws still exist, and your line of reasoning is hardly reason to abolish them.
Post by
607995
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Laihendi
But the poiBut that law isn't fair for people who consent to sex and are not subjected to manipulation. Laihendi doesn't think there should be laws that cannot be enforced fairly.
I don't think your average incestuous person realises the implications of what they're doing. The government do, the law protects society as a whole and any possible children.
I think Dr. Lore's reply sums up my thoughts on it. The law's existence is less about enforcement, and more about society officially labeling incest as "wrong" (because of the high chance of manipulation/coercion) by making a law against it (like a suicide law, perhaps). Not to prevent the sickos from doing it, but to prevent it from wandering into the realm of 'acceptable' in the non-sickos (and perhaps to open a path to punishment where one didn't already exist).
Maybe that's not what laws
should
be for, but as you said -- someone who is sick enough to break the law will do it whether it's illegal or not. The same logic probably applies to murder, and robbery, and everything else -- but the laws still exist, and your line of reasoning is hardly reason to abolish them.
That's true that murder being illegal won't necessarily stop someone from committing it, but murder is illegal because it harms others. Incest between consenting adults doesn't harm anyone. Incest between abusive parents and their children hurts the kids, and should remain illegal, but people who do it will continue to do so whether incest between adults is legal or not.
Legalizing incest between consenting adults wouldn't make sexual abuse any worse, and would allow people to have more freedom in pursuing their romantic interests.
Post by
Adamsm
I have to ask, when was the last time someone was arrested for incest... beyond actual rape? I mean really, that 'recent' news article about the grandmother and her grandson finding each other, marrying and getting a surrogate for their love child, has nothing about either of them going to jail or being arrested. So yeah, while your link is interesting, it's probably not active anymore, as the cops have better things to do then go around making sure that joe bob and his sister jane lane ain't screwing in the barn.
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