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Rogue forum - MY opinion on rogues
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Post by
335633
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Caperon
Sheeoco,
While you do have a point, you're post does seem to miss a few things.
Rogues dont have a set sequence, because we have our combo point system.
Paladins, death knights and hunters can easily put their skills in an order, since they mostly have a logical order of use (Mainly because of their low cds, 10-30 secs).
But yes, there is no set rotation in pvp.
Post by
335633
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
335633
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Caperon
Rogues dont have a set sequence, because we have our combo point system.
Yes. This is true, but if the original poster intends to make generalizations about all classes, generalizing that rogues have a set sequence of abilities (which is also generally true) does not seem to drastic.
1-1-2-1-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-1-2 (Mutilate)
1-1-1-2-1-1-1-3-1-1-1-4 (Combat)
Of course, this is excluding the intracacies of the class (CP procs, RS procs, HfB, Killing Spree, Blade Flury, etc.) However, as the original poster seems to hellbent on implying, all of the other classes can skip these class-based intracacies for a basic sequential outline and still be competitive. This can also be inferred for the rogue class.
You are partially right.
For example it is hard for a combat rogue's rotation to be put in a sequence. The amount of combo points generated is different and thus the duration of SnD too.
This means with bad luck, that sequence will have a gap without SnD.
This is mostly why rogues cant be put in a set sequence.
And yes SnD should never drop.
Paladins, death knights and hunters can easily put their skills in an order, since they mostly have a logical order of use (Mainly because of their low cds, 10-30 secs).
Is this directed towards PvP or PvE?
Pve
PvP
:
As can all classes, because all classes must have a general approach to PvP to be effective. Just as CS > CP generator > KS > CP Generator > CP generator > Envenom / Eviscerate is a very low-skill, albeit BG-competent (which seems to me is the extent of the OPs experience) ability sequence.
If Paladins HoJ a healer at the start of the fight, it generally wont be as effective (if = skill / gear) as it would have been if they had used it when the healer had low health, forcing them to either trinket or die.
As it would also be poor decision making for a hunter to use Aimed Shot near the end of their ability rotation, because of all the extra healing that could be pumped out during that time (think of it like OH weapon swapping > Shiv Wound Poison onto a target after going through CS > KS > Damage Finisher. Not that effective.)
Also, if a deathknight popped AMS / AMZ vs. a straight melee opponent, while their spellcasting partner was CC'd.
There are general rules for all classes to abide by to be effective in PvP. Sure, it's easy as hell to roll through a BG on a ret paladin and 3v1 over and over. But look at arena. The reason they aren't near the top is because their BG plateau is not in line with the requirements of Arena combat. All classes have their strengths / weaknesses. The rogue class is not exclusive to this idea.
Like i said, there is no rotation in pvp.
Only a basic way of reacting to something.
PvE
:
Most classes (not just the ones that generally beat rogues in PvP) have either a.) a set rotation or b.) a priority list.
Deathknights: Yes, their abilities generally have a moderately low CD because you're usually waiting for your runes to refresh. However, if you where to spam Deathcoil while your runes where on CD (assuming you where specced Frost DW, Unholy is a different story) your dps would be considerably lower than if you had used the priority list designed for that dps spec.
Paladins: Yes, generally, you'd use your abilities as they came off CD, so a cast sequence could probably be made for this. However, a Paladins utility does not come from this Divine Storm spam during trash. Their ability to throw out free (generally speaking, GCD usage and mana lose are not considered here) FoL's in tight spots as well as HoF, HoP, And DI are all generally useful abilities the paladin can use to save his raid members from harm. Also, most high end ret's will be using at least 2pc t10, which means that the idea of a cast sequence becomes obsolete.
Hunters: Never really played one at 80, so I'm not sure of the rotation, however, as most classes, the use of frost traps (to kite adds, which is usually a chosen roll for a hunter in most raids), as well as the effective use of disengage to evade fires, bombs, spikes, etc. seem to be generally skillful and unbindable interactive abilities that would be unable to be put into a sequence macro.
You'll have to face the fact that those macros do exist.
Ive seen a few for dk, pally, hunter & mage.
You talk about priority, but the 2 classes that
really
suffer from this are feral druids and enhancement shamans.
And i've never seen a sequence for them.
I really hope someone actually replies to this. It took me half an hour.
You're welcome.
Post by
335633
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Caperon
You talk about priority, but the 2 classes that really suffer from this are feral druids and enhancement shamans.
And i've never seen a sequence for them.
I am in no way disagreeing with you, as I've played a feral druid myself for quite some time, however, having also played a DW frost dk (not its unholy counterpart, which i've seen, and imagine is completely sequential), and the frost dk relies very heavily on a priority list. Overlapping Killing Machine procs in exchange for more Obliterates is extremely detrimental to your dps, just as clipping rake much to early on my feral druid ruined the energy synergy required to maintain you're hefty amount of short duration abilities that are required to be kept up (prior to the mangle buff).
Im glad that we got this worked out.
Post by
260814
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
KidB
The three priority specs are undoubtedly harder to play than any rotational/conditionally rotational specs (all rogue specs included), however only harder in a sense that the margin for error is none. Any deviation from the optimal priority list will be punished by a hefty dps loss. The thing is, rotational specs aren't completely immune to errors. The dps loss for say, dropping snd (or HfB, back in the day it stacked and used to cost 30 energy per pop) is/was massive.
Rets, of the three priority specs are the least affected by less-than-optimal play. You can disagree all you want, everyone defends their class, but when you can have a single-button macro for your entire rotation that can come as close as 5% below your maximum potential dps (yes, with 2p t10), that tells a lot.
Post by
260814
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
260814
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Caperon
Lol, just realized something.
Who would have thought that such a moronic thread, would spark such meaningful and intellectual debate.
NERF
PALLIES
PLOX
!
Post by
Eleazer
Haha, the idea that you can macro a ret pali rotation is hilarious. I saw a macro'd rotation on it once it was extremely long and had a significant drop in dps after 27seconds, and didn't work with 2pc T10.
While the rogue rotation is impossible to macro it is not the most difficult rotation to master. That would be feral druids or the complete random clunkiness of enhance shamans.
The main reason you don't see a lot of great players as ret paladins is due to the randomness of their dps output. They are heavily reliant on procs. This leads to random dps outputs. A great pali can see as much as 5 percent variance in their dps from fight to fight. It's quite frustrating to sit around waiting for something to come off cooldown or hoping for a crit or having DS free up at the exact same time as Judgement.
While every class is reliant on some form of procs only Feral druids and rogues work off energy pooling and CP finishers. Feral druids simply have more dots and buffs to watch than a rogue. I still think the OP is missing the point here, in this day and age where CC is not necessary except in extreme situations, and during those situations the rogue is on of the last guys you would ask to CC something than they are solely there for one responsibility to outdps every other melee dps. To maximize contact time with the boss and find a way to maximize your dps output.
Being a hybrid doesn't mean you can CC or do something besides dps. It means you have the ability to heal or tank by simply changing specs or by simply tossing out a spare heal. I have seen numerous ret palidans/shamans/druids, stop dpsing to toss in an emergency heal or rez in order to save a life and continue back on the boss.
Post by
Joim
Plain and simple - do a simple mistake with a retry paladin and lose 100 dps, do the a simple mistake on a rogue and lose 1000 dps. A lot of retrys don't watch procs either, just spam their damage spells and do almost the same dps with 0 effort.
Post by
260814
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Eleazer
Plain and simple - do a simple mistake with a retry paladin and lose 100 dps, do the a simple mistake on a rogue and lose 1000 dps. A lot of retrys don't watch procs either, just spam their damage spells and do almost the same dps with 0 effort.
First off, your anecdotal numbers are totally off base. Second, have you played a ret pally and a rogue in ICC? You might want to go up and read my post about a ret pallies rotation. You either didn't, or are really dense.
This is spot on. I have a ret palid, feral druid cat, and rogue. I lose less dps when screwing up my rotation simply via my feral and rogue than by screwing up my pali. Mainly because every piece of the pali rotation is necessary and hits hard.
Granted the rogue and feral cat rotations are extremely complex, but the fall off over let your bleed tick off a bit too much or accidentally refreshing a bleed instead of letting it tick off can be made up later. Waiting too long on any pali attack will screw your dps huge. Now granted screwing up your rogue rotation major or falling behind on a feral cat is much more difficult to catch back up again so your loss potential is much larger. In fact while the rogue rotation is not as forgiving as the paladins one it is significantly more forgiving than the feral cat rotation. Also while the pali rotation is much easier to slow down and get back on track the dps loss is not minimal at all if you make get off track.
Post by
335633
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
105944
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
KidB
Synergy =/= difficulty.
wat
Post by
335633
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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