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Islamic Community Center in Manhattan
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Post by
Heckler
I'm posting this in the hopes that everyone on this forum already agrees with me, and therefore no deep discussion or controversy will be sparked. However, another motivation is the sheer curiosity about some of your opinions, and the hope that I can better understand them should they exist.
Video:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-august-10-2010/municipal-land-use-hearing-update
(Alternate link 1:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/11/stewart-takes-on-ground-z_n_678224.html
)
Articles:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Ground%20Zero%20Mosque&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=nws:1&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wn
I'm not going to describe the details about this story here --
if you don't already know them, I'm not interested in your spur-of-the-moment response
. What I'm looking for is intellectually honest and intellectually curious discussion on the topic with those who are already familiar and have already formed an opinion. If you haven't heard of this story before, the link above is from America's most trusted news man (lol, sad but true), Jon Stewart, but a quick
Google search
will find plenty of videos of big-name Republicans (including Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, and others) bashing the Islamic community for this effort, as well as the President supporting it, a quote:
"Our capacity to show not merely tolerance, but
respect
towards those who are different from us – and that way of life, that quintessentially American creed, stands in stark contrast to the nihilism of those who attacked us on that September morning, and who continue to plot against us today"
My question is, is there anyone out there who (again, intellectual honesty is important here) is opposed to this building? Does freedom of religion mean nothing? In my opinion, this is a non-issue that anyone with the slightest shred of knowledge (vice blind ignorance) would view as such. I think these Republicans are simply posturing to the ignorant (which is common political practice), but if any of you have a non-ignorant reason why this building shouldn't be built (because maybe I'm actually the ignorant one), please post here -- I'll try very hard to not be judgmental and to provide as much intellectual honesty myself as I've asked of you.
Edit: Provided another link, but just Google "Ground Zero Mosque" (a complete misnomer) if you want to get informed =)
Post by
Adamsm
Alright, as I can't actually view that video(due to being Canada), from your comments Heckler I can guess what it's about: The Republicans are still treating the Muslim/Islamic community as scape goats for pretty much anything bad that occur and the standard 'If they build this, they will train terrorist in it!' vein of thought right?
On topic: yes, it should be allowed to build, after all, all those missionaries from the US are allowed to build churches in any Third World Country, and in some cases, force the local populace to sit through sermons and mass before they can get food or any schooling.... in other words, double standard bull crap. But considering that it's easier to make the immigrants evil, and try to turn focus off their own stupidity, you'll see the Republicans always do that.
Post by
375923
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
I actually had an argument with my mum about this today, this morning as a matter of fact. Many newspapers in the UK and news stations as well have called it a "Mosque being built on Ground Zero." - which is ofcourse fundamentally incorrect, as it is supposedly 3 blocks (what is that, 30 odd streets?) away from Ground Zero, and it's a community centre for Islam, although there will be religious practices there.
Personally, I do not have a problem at all with this planned construction. It encourages ethnic diversity, and I think that Muslims do get a hard time because of so few Islamic Extremists. By allowing this construction, America would show an image of being highly tolerant (which it's supposed to be), but crucially that the US recognises that not all Muslims are extremists, and still welcomes people of all faiths. The US tends to influence a lot of the Western World, so this train of thought may spread and hopefully lead to an end to the train of thought that all Muslims want to blow up everything, which is of course far from the truth.
My mother argued, however, that so close to Ground Zero, a community centre for
all
faiths should be built, to show unity after 9/11. I agree with this view, but still nonetheless support the building of an Islamic Community Centre in Manhattan.
Post by
Heckler
On topic: yes, it should be allowed to build, after all, all those missionaries from the US are allowed to build churches in any Third World Country, and in some cases, force the local populace to sit through sermons and mass before they can get food or any schooling....
Interestingly enough, one of the Republican arguments is 'They won't let us build a single Church or Synagogue in Saudi Arabia!' Jon Stewart's reply was priceless, something along the lines of 'Why should we as Americans have higher standards for religious liberty than Saudi Arabia!'
But yes, perhaps I should have included a few details, I just get sick of seeing or participating in arguments about a topic with people who know nothing about what they're arguing. I truly hate "competing monologue" discussions -- especially when one or both parties are completely ignorant of facts and details -- that can hardly be called 'discussion' at all.
The gist: An Islamic Center is being built a few blocks from "Ground Zero" (the site of the World Trade Center Towers pre-9/11), and apparently some people think that shouldn't be allowed.
Post by
375923
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
buzz3070
On topic: yes, it should be allowed to build, after all, all those missionaries from the US are allowed to build churches in any Third World Country, and in some cases, force the local populace to sit through sermons and mass before they can get food or any schooling.... in other words, double standard bull crap. But considering that it's easier to make the immigrants evil, and try to turn focus off their own stupidity, you'll see the Republicans always do that.
Well that may be true but how many of those churches are built on or near a site were an act of terrorism committed by extremists of that religion was committed?
Really i would think it shouldn't be out of respect for the family's of the victims and also for public safety ill bet that it will be the site of many vandalism's, fights, protests what have you .
Post by
Adamsm
Yeah well, you know the Republicans; if it takes away from the Church, it shouldn't be allowed to exist, as it goes against God... alright sarcasm over. If they really wanted to, they could turn an entire New York City block into a representation for all the faiths that are out there that make up the US: Catholic, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and so on. But don't put them in the same building... that's just asking for trouble. Other then that, something to repair the relationship between the American Muslim community and the rest of the US is always a good idea.
Well that may be true but how many of those churches are built on or near a site were an act of terrorism committed by extremists of that religion was committed?
Really i would think it shouldn't be out of respect for the family's of the victims and also for public safety ill bet that it will be the site of many vandalism's, fights, protests what have you .
On another note i also cant watch the video and yes i am in america.
Quite a few in all honesty; a lot of churches were built on sites in the past where a massacre of the native people occurred.... But then again, the comments about vandalism, fights and protests already occur outside a lot of Mosque and other Muslim places of gathering, so it wouldn't be a new thing; they would just have to make sure the police presence was strong near it(which it would be, as it would be a memorial as well).
Post by
Heckler
Well that may be true but how many of those churches are built on or near a site were an act of terrorism committed by extremists of that religion was committed?
Really i would think it shouldn't be out of respect for the family's of the victims and also for public safety ill bet that it will be the site of many vandalism's, fights, protests what have you .
On another note i also cant watch the video and yes i am in america.
You talk about respect, yet you just functionally equated a small group of Al-Qaeda terrorists to the entire Muslim religion as a whole. That hardly seems respectful, much less realistic.
I added another link to the video, they both work for me however.
Other then that, something to repair the relationship between the American Muslim community and the rest of the US is always a good idea.
I agree, and I think non-Muslim public support of this community center serves that exact purpose.
Post by
375923
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
The gist: An Islamic Center is being built a few blocks from "Ground Zero" (the site of the World Trade Center Towers pre-9/11), and apparently some people think that shouldn't be allowed.
Think of it from the victims family's point of view how would you feel if a center built for the religion that caused this tragedy was built near the place the tragedy was committed? Its salt in the wound and out of respect it should not be built as a Islamic center but like patty said a center for people of all faiths.
Except it wasn't a 'religion' it was a group of terrorists who hid behind the Religion: In that vein of thinking, when a group of American soldiers who also happened to be Christian destroy a building, and other Christian religious people show up later, wanting to build a Church there, would that also be a bad idea? Seriously, you can't blame the entire populace of a religion just because of something a few idiots did; Should I blame every Catholic and Christian person for the group who attempted to beat the hell out of me in High School for believing in something different from them?
Post by
buzz3070
Well that may be true but how many of those churches are built on or near a site were an act of terrorism committed by extremists of that religion was committed?
Really i would think it shouldn't be out of respect for the family's of the victims and also for public safety ill bet that it will be the site of many vandalism's, fights, protests what have you .
On another note i also cant watch the video and yes i am in america.
Rediculous the familys shouldnt be offended by the religion of the extreamists and its not like its being built right on top of ground Zero with a big Al Kaeda (probebly spelt that wrong) flag flying on top.
Wouldn't you? Also a link to provide me some backing.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/06/new.york.ground.zero.mosque/index.html
Post by
Heckler
Wouldn't you? Also a link to provide me some backing.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/06/new.york.ground.zero.mosque/index.html
Honestly buzz, you're just affirming my suspicion that the only argument against this Center is based on an ignorant, disrespectful, and wrong-headed assumption of equivalence between Islam and Al-Qaeda. If this is the only argument anyone comes up with, then I'll just rest assured that anyone with that opinion is in a tiny minority not worth worrying about.
Your
argumentum ad populum
(I just learned that phrase) link hardly provides you any backing, care to elaborate a little on exactly why an Islamic Center should offend anyone? I'm looking for something more in-depth than this, what you've said so far completely falls apart under the slightest analysis.
Post by
Adamsm
Also, shall we be frank here Buzz? Bin Laden and his little terrorist organization was actually set up by the US Government in the first place..... so yeah; rather then blame the religion they hid behind(seeing as that's what cowards and terrorist have done for thousands of years), why not point fingers at the actual culprits(yes, I am just being a sarcastic jerk at the moment but I'm sick and tired of the mass racism against the Muslim and Islamic community), also here's a good question for you too: If this Center is going to cause so much trouble and problems.... why is it for the last 4 years, on 9/11 the US has done nothing?
I mean, the three years after the attack, you had vigils and repeats of the original footage all day long, but now that the war went wrong, and people were tired of the War on Terrorism, they pushed it aside, and 'forget' about it. So, before you go on the outrage about people who had nothing to do with the attack, you might want to aim a look at your own government who seems fine with pushing it aside and under the covers.
Post by
kattib
I am not at all opposed to this, as long as this community center goes through the proper channels or buying property and follows all building codes. As long as the law is followed any group can buy any property and build whatever they want there. Seriously this shouldnt even be an issue here, freedom of religion applies to ALL religions whether you be Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist or Jewish.
Post by
375923
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
buzz3070
also here's a good question for you too: If this Center is going to cause so much trouble and problems.... why is it for the last 4 years, on 9/11 the US has done nothing?
I'm assuming because they wanted to leave the family's of the victims to memorialize it if they so choose to.
Also this is my last post in this thread i give my opinion on it and you rip it apart i post a link to it and you dismiss it. go ahead and rip on it some more if it feeds your ego.
Post by
375923
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
Also this is my last post in this thread i give my opinion on it and you rip it apart i post a link to it and you dismiss it. go ahead and rip on it some more if it feeds your ego.
I asked for intellect and you provided a generalized statement with no logical backing or rational thought process behind it. My ripping was not to feed my ego, it was to point out that your argument is logically baseless, as evidenced by the fact that you did not attempt to defend it even once with a logical thought. I didn't dismiss your link, I read it, and it simply provided proof that there exists people who share your view, which does not serve as justification for having that view. The argument you provided is the same one everyone provides on every message board and comment section everywhere. And just like them, you will not back it up with any rational thought process. If Islam and the 9/11 attackers are the same thing, explain to me how and why that is true. I'm looking for something more, to prove to myself that it either doesn't exist, or that I'm wrong about something here.
Your point about it causing violence, etc. was more along the lines of what I had in mind for discussion, although to me, that seems like a "protect the people from themselves" argument that is still rooted in the Islam / Al-Qaeda equivalence assumption.
Post by
Adamsm
also here's a good question for you too: If this Center is going to cause so much trouble and problems.... why is it for the last 4 years, on 9/11 the US has done nothing?
I'm assuming because they wanted to leave the family's of the victims to memorialize it if they so choose to.And yet, every year, we celebrate Memorial Day to remember all those who died in foreign wars and conflicts; if it's really that massive a deal to build something near Ground Zero, why is it then no one has done anything for the memory of all those fire fighters, police men, soldiers, and the civilians who died in both the Towers collapsing and the war afterward in Afghanistan? I'm not trying to bash you Buzz, I'm just wondering why it's such a big deal to you, when the rest of the country seems to have forgotten about it..... except where racism comes into play?
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