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4.0.1: DPS Warriors Dissapear?
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Post by
Kurasmaniac
Yea man, I wasn't talking about hardcapping as fury right now, the gear isn't there yet. You responded to a post written at the end of ICC, when fury warriors *were* (this was supported on all high end armories and WoL parses, i can dig up the latter to show you their melee miss rates) hardcapping their hit rating.
Melee was also a big chunk of the raiding fury warriors damage output, again supported on WoL. Missing zero times also had the implication of being able to use HS almost on CD.
So sure, right now (read as- cataclysm) a fury warrior will not be hardcapping their hit rating, they probably wont ever again. The good fellows over at EJ will surely math out a sweet spot where RNG gets minimized and an intelligent player can maintain a decent rotation.
Post by
marklartank
Arms on the other hand feels weak, like i have gaps that needs filling but nothing to fill them with, might just be me missing out on something. (Should we use TC? O.o)
arms has gaps? there's no such thing as a gap as arms - you can ALWAYS hit something.
1) maintain rend
2) CS only if the buff is not up
3) MS
4) OP (try and get every OP with LttS)
5) slam
HS or cleave if rage > ~85 (find the number that works for you)
Post by
septimx
fury is needing more HIT... i just leveled 85 last night, and basically all of my gear that are quest rewards or blacksmith forged, i re-forge the mastery into HIT... because currently i don't see mastery that useful for Fury... true more damage output from Raging blow and more heals from enrage, but no HIT is no RAGE is no Special ability....
and now currently looking for my first justice point purchase...
Post by
Nitsud230
fury is needing more HIT... i just leveled 85 last night, and basically all of my gear that are quest rewards or blacksmith forged, i re-forge the mastery into HIT... because currently i don't see mastery that useful for Fury... true more damage output from Raging blow and more heals from enrage, but no HIT is no RAGE is no Special ability....
and now currently looking for my first justice point purchase...
I find a huge jump in my damage output with Furys Mastery, I'm not sure why you haven't. Almost all the pieces of dps plate gear I've seen has a lot of hit on it. If there is not hit on the gear there is usually haste which you can reforge, I don't, the faster you swing the more chances of hitting.
So far being the best damage dealer in nearly every instance I've been shows that Fury Warriors are monsters (Fire Mages are the ones that squeak by).
Post by
GaeBolge
Clearly i've been gone for when the art of trolling died.
I don't know if your a bad troll or just don't want to learn things at all.
Hardcap for 1 weapon, 1hander or 2hander doesn't matter, is 8%, for dual wielding its 27%.
There isnt any optimal gear right now to get to the hardcap for dualwielding without gimping your other stats. But when this thread started there was since we still were lvl 80.
Rage normalization makes it extra important to get as much hit to the cap as you can, during the time where you got a full ragebar from a crit it was not as important for fury, but hit has and will always be the most important stat to cap for arms.
Yes you would like to make that burst in 3 sec, but what if the second white hit misses? you would have to wait another 3,5 sec for more rage.
Your logic is based on what if, our logic is based on numbers and tested facts.
Hard cap is 27% regardless. Softcap is 8% 1hander 12% 2hander, and this does indeed matter. This means your special attacks, your mortal strikes, your raging blows, your heroic strikes, rends, ect, WILL NOT MISS. What you are not understanding is that the 27%hit raging, the hard cap, will NEVER be attainable. You do not want as much hit as you can get. Your white damage DOES NOT MATTER. get that through your head.
Most DPS plate gear has haste on it, and with the changes to Heroic Strike and Cleave, they do not reset your hit timer. If you miss that one white damage attack, o well. Hit a shout, they are the new bloodrage. The white damage miss will be a very rare occasion and does not "gimp" your DPS, which is what you do not understand. White damage = unimportant. period.
Rage generalization works so that a hit, of any kind, rewards rage. the amount of rage is fixed. This amount is either 15, 20 or 25, I honestly do not care enough to check because I have no problem watching my rage. If you burn rage on a special attack, you gain that 15 or 25 rage back. If you do a white attack, you gain 15-25 rage. If you shout, you gain rage. There are talents in each tree, which assist in rage generation, so again you should have no problem if you watch your rage.
The whole point of the rage normalization is so you HAVE to watch your rage. There is not a way around this, not the hard cap, not haste. If you cannot watch your rage you will fail, you will be a horrible DPS and you will have only your own self to blame.
My logic is based off facts. I read the blue posts, I read the theory craft, then I go out and I test it myself. Your logic is based off your desire to have blizzard make things easy enough that you do not have to actually try.
Post by
GaeBolge
I'm aware that this post is 2months old. Its been being continued, since the end of WotLK, which was not even 2 weeks ago. My original re post was, specifically, to answer the rotation question. After that I re read the posts I had missed, and saw a increasing number of people that think the white damage is that important. Since this is a thread to discuss just that kind of thing, there it went.
Kuras, you were implying that the hard cap of 27% was ever reachable. It was not. In WotLK some people decided that since the amount of hit on the gear was massive, it must be possible to reach the 27% cap. EJ disapproved this almost immediately. If a warrior tries to reach the 27%hard cap he is wasting his time. That is the whole point of the discussion. Comparing something to something else that is relevant, aka the 8% soft cap for arms to the 12% soft cap for fury, is not like comparing cows and moons. Its comparing a talent tree hit cap that you want to reach, which does NOT have a 3% hit bonus in it, to one that DOES have a 3% hit damage bonus and a higher need. All Dual Wield requires 12% all 1handers 8%. Arms does not have precision, fury does have precision.
I will sit here and provide the facts all day dude. I'm hard headed as hell and I don't sugarcoat stupidity.
Post by
Victarious
Ignoring everything else for the time being, where are you getting a 12% hit soft cap for Fury? And don't just say it, link us to a source. I've seen you give that number a few times now, and I have no idea where you're pulling it from, but unless I missed a drastic change (which is possible) the Fury soft cap is still 8% (or 5% from gear and 3% from talents, if you prefer).
Post by
masti
Do yourself a favor and just look at the hit table that is in the character screen, equip 1 2-hand weapon and look at your current % of hit and the % miss chance on a level 88 mob, add the 2 up and i guarantee that it will be 8%, and since its just 1 weapon equipped it will say % chance to miss on special
and
normal attacks, then do the same with a 1-hand weapon, then use 2 weapons and look at the special attack miss tab, i bet you will be amazed.
And EJ did not say it was a waste of time nor impossible to get hardcapped at 80 in icc gear, quite the contrary, go back and read the warrior section and check the latest inputs, stacking hit before rage normalization was a waste yes, after its proven that it is a dps increase, not only from more white damage, but from,
and this is the important part
, more rage that will allow you to use more abilities such as HS or cleave.
HS and cleave didn't reset your swing timer, they consumed a white swing and added extra damage to it and the benefit of converting it into a special attack which in turn lowerd the hit required for that to the soft cap of 8%. Slam used to reset your swingtimer, but that was before wotlk, it now pauses your swingtimer, but that does not concern fury since its instant due bloodsurge.
Shouts still have a 30sec cd for fury, and if you use it to have enough rage for a ability that is already out of cd, then that is a dps loss.
White hit does matter, they are there to give us rage, the white damage is just a bonus that in the end does a major part of our damage.
Yes Blizzard change the rage mechanics because warriors were just about spamming buttons when they reached a certain gear level, they made the changes to make it more interesting to play.
And telling people to stack hit in order to actually do good dps is not about any desire to make it more easy, its a game for 12 year olds and up, how hard is it to begin with?
im done speaking to a wall, play the game however you want, but dont teach other people that want to optimize their playstyle how to be mediocre.
Post by
septimx
Hard cap is 27% regardless. Softcap is 8% 1hander 12% 2hander, and this does indeed matter. This means your special attacks, your mortal strikes, your raging blows, your heroic strikes, rends, ect, WILL NOT MISS. What you are not understanding is that the 27%hit raging, the hard cap, will NEVER be attainable. You do not want as much hit as you can get. Your white damage DOES NOT MATTER. get that through your head.
white miss = no rage = no special attacks.... i think you skip the point in getting rage first before doing and special attacks... a 15% miss on the 87 boss is DPS loss no matter how many special attacks you land, and how big those yellow numbers are, there will still be a point that you're struggling for rage... try a few heroics first, bring along an ARMs warrior for comparison...
true you may do 7k dps on 87 boss, but you're quite struggling for rage, and most of the time, your partner ARMs warrior will do 12k dps on 87 boss and still have plenty of rage to spare...
Post by
Badaccus
Arms on the other hand feels weak, like i have gaps that needs filling but nothing to fill them with, might just be me missing out on something. (Should we use TC? O.o)
arms has gaps? there's no such thing as a gap as arms - you can ALWAYS hit something.
1) maintain rend
2) CS only if the buff is not up
3) MS
4) OP (try and get every OP with LttS)
5) slam
HS or cleave if rage > ~85 (find the number that works for you)
Thanks for a prio-list, might give arms a try again, fury is lacking a bit atm, but still (imo) Fury is more fun than arms. (might be because i've played arms for 4 years, it gets boring)
But still, thanks!
Post by
daihe
2 - Rage is normalized. Every hit gives you X amount of rage now. Period. Mortal Strike costs 25rage. If when you hit the target you gain X rage and lets say X =15 (because I honestly forget what X really equals) that means by casting MS you truly only loose 10rage. You loose 25 casting the attack, when it hits you gain back 15 totaling a loss of only 10rage.
Since when does special attacks give rage?
Post by
553682
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Anarchy
Okay, lets get this straight.
I will sit here and provide the facts all day dude. I'm hard headed as hell and I don't sugarcoat stupidity.
Hard headed
and
stupid, awesome.
You're not spreading facts, you're spreading your warped opinion of game mechanics.
Softcap is 8% 1hander 12% 2hander
Where are you getting 12% from? That's wrong, and
don't spread false information
.
I'm gonna say this once, get it into your heads, and check the character sheet for prove, better yet test it yourself.
The following is without passive hit bonuses, talents, racials, gear or anything else that will increase your chance to HIT.
White attacks
27% dual wielding versus a boss
24% dual wielding versus an enemy of the same level as you
8% single wielding versus a boss
5% single wielding versus an enemy of the same level as you
Single wielding = two-hand or sword and board, or just one weapon in the main hand.
That is ALL.
the hard cap, will NEVER be attainable. Your white damage DOES NOT MATTER. get that through your head.
White damage = unimportant. period.
Wrong, it was
very
easily attainable, you needed about 750 rating or so.
A large majority of our damage is not important?
White damage = rage = special ability = DPS = very important.
Comprende? Hard to understand?
I honestly do not care enough to check
Noticed, which is why the majority of your post is
wrong
.
My logic is based off facts. I read the blue posts, I read the theory craft, then I go out and I test it myself.
No it's not, you didn't test anything, if you tested anything you wouldn't be here posting.
Post by
septimx
^^ good summary kataya.
fury hit is sorely lacking the highest with my gear was nearing 14% only soo hard..., maybe our master should be unshackled HIT.... or plus 10% hit overall.... =)
Post by
Badaccus
According to my calculations 120 hitrating = 1% hit@85, so to get miss-immunity you'll need 3244 hit-rating. (120 x 27)
I'd say miss-immunity is no longer reachable without reforging/gemming/enchanting EVERYTHING into hit, and that's gonna hurt our dps. (IF it's even possible)
Theory for reforging:
Item search for Plate DPS items without hit
to be able to reforge Mastery/haste/Crit => Hit.
Going by
"Top End"
gear (without resilience) we get a total of stats reforgable to hit total by all slots together: 1744 and 40% of that is 697.6.
Food:
Grilled Dragon
90 hit/90 stamina
Pyrium Weapon Chain
= 40 hit per weapon = 80.
Enchant boots
50 Hit.
Enchant Bracer
50 Hit.
These together give a grand total of 967 Hit-rating, not including neck/trinkets/cloak/ranged, leaving you to need 2277 hit from those slots.
Not possible.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Going by gear that HAS Hit but NOT resilience the list is very short:
Breastplate of Raging Fury
Greaves of Wu the Elder
Terrastra's Legguards
Earthen Pauldrons
Belt of Absolute Zero
Electron Inductor Coils
Neck/Rings/Cloak/Trinkets:
Cloak of the Red Flight
Circle of Bone
Band of the Dead End
License to Slay
Might of the Ocean
Using those pieces and earlier enchants and food you get a total of 2177, leaving you with only 1067 hitrating needed from GEMS only.
Rigid Ocean Sapphire
x 20 will give another 800 hit, leaving you 267 hit short. and with those earlier pieces with hit only having 7 slots thats gonna get hard.
sorry for the MASSIVE derail, but i think the result speaks for itself.
It is no longer possible to reach 27% hitrating with the currently obtainable gear.
Post by
masti
You are not supposed to go for the hardcap at this moment, 18-19% in tier 11 is the reasonable amount without gimping str gemming.
Post by
Anarchy
Good work, Badaccus.
Agree with masti, you're never able to reach the hard cap in the first tier.
Post by
Kurasmaniac
I'm hard headed as hell and I don't sugarcoat stupidity.
Clearly.
On topic, im not sure if the sweet spot for hit will be 27%, with item budgets you'd be gimping other stats even at a higher gear lvls in comparison to other classes that only have to stack 8% hit. This is of course opinion and ill leave the math up to more qualified individuals.
Post by
Badaccus
Thanks, i had to do the math for myself so i might aswell post it here for others to see and tell me if i missed something.
I'm back to Arms atm, but the dps doesn't seem to vary that much, a bit easier to cap hit and exp, but still.. Sure, it's not epic yet, no epic gems, old meta, (yes i'm a cheap bastard that wont pay 1500g for a meta in a green helmet) but the overall feel, as soon as i get better gear im going
right back to fury!
Post by
septimx
I'm back to Arms atm, but the dps doesn't seem to vary that much, a bit easier to cap hit and exp, but still.. Sure, it's not epic yet, no epic gems, old meta, (yes i'm a cheap bastard that wont pay 1500g for a meta in a green helmet) but the overall feel, as soon as i get better gear im going right back to fury!
yeah same reason, gonna try fury again in a few months time...
because fury will be pretty much gear dependent...
2hand weapons, are from heroics, gear from valor and justice which practically takes a few weeks for 1 justice point piece and month/s for valor pieces...
a regular heroic taking 30mins to 1hour to complete as of now is not yet looking pretty...
so far the guild is pretty much doing daily and completing quest and getting exalted in new factions to get the nice new enchants and gear from quartermasters...
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