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Weapon choices for prot
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Post by
blademeld
No. Solarian and Shade of Aran, and probably
a few bosses in Naxx
, are low armor.
You mentioned naxx specifically, I didn't mention anything anything about Ulduar other than relating it to the change of the armour value of the Naxx bosses.
contrary to your claims, ... (based on information two years old).
at level 60 I believe they were.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
@ Djane:
2) Raleandris is wrong.
3) Both you and he misunderstand what normalisation is.
There are two components to CS damage.
A: Weapon Damage - base damage, essentially.
B: AP scaling.
The A component is the listed damage on the weapon, not the damage that you see under your Melee tab. This is because the Melee tab weapon damage already factors in AP.
Aestu says that Last Word does 530.6 DPS, 820-1091 on his character. The base damage is 315-587 damage, or 250.6 DPS @ 1.8secs. Given the difference, it means that he has approximately 500*14/1.8 = ~3900AP.
Now, for the purposes of calculating CS damage, the AP scaling uses a fixed 2.4s for all one-handed weapons (according to SirPunky on the first page). 3900 * 2.4 / 14 = ~670 bonus damage from AP.
So the total CS damage is:
A: 315-587 +
B: ~670
= 985-1257
Compare that to Bloodvenom Blade:
A: 456-848 +
B: ~670
= 1126-1518
The difference is around 200 average, which doubles to about 400 once you include all the bonus damage to CS, backing up the raw data provided by Aestu.
Notice that the B components are identical. That's what normalisation is - the AP scaling is 'normalised' to a fixed speed of 2.4secs.
5) Normalisation states weapon speed does not matter. Therefore, 'not normalised' states that weapon speed does matter. This is why Aestu says that CS is 'not normalised' - because it does matter. If you think that it's mutually exclusive, you need to brush up on comprehension.
The reason for argument is that a portion if normalised, but a portion isn't. The scaling is normalised, but the base weapon damage component is not.
Post by
Djane
There is no data whatsoever for any armour values of bosses beyond Ulduar? Why?
Logic dictates because as all the theorycrafters around arp have declared, the value of armour became a constant at 10,643. There is no evidence whatsoever that this has changed. There is no evidence that would even suggest that this has changed. Up until the removal of Arp all of the theorycrafters involved in this agreed on this constant value.
If you believe it to be otherwise either you have proof that the rest of the theorycrafting community missed, or you are making spurious statements to contradict someone elses evidence with no basis.
Post by
Djane
Yes. Normalisation means that weapon speed is fixed at 2.4 for determining the damage of that particular ability. I am agreeing with this. That is what normalisation means. That IS what Ral was stating. That weapon speed is the defining factor in normalisation. not that the speed of a weapon is important, but that the speed of an ability is defined via normalisation.
Weapon speed does not matter? This is a meaningless statement. Normalisation is STILL about weapon speed and if an ability is not normalised, then yes. Weapon speed does matter. I was never refuting this.
Aestu however IS refuting this by stating that crusader strike cannot be normalised. Since it is, clearly(by your own evidence, the data on wowhead about the ability and lots of theorycrafting), Aestu IS stating that weapon speed impacts the value of AP on crusader strike. This is what I'm drawing attention to in my quotes. Not that the weapon speed you use to apply crusader strike matters.
And allow me to clarify this with an in context quote.
Bam. Cstrike is NOT normalized. Weapon speed is a significant factor in the damage it deals.
Post by
blademeld
Again, I said that I never mentioned Ulduar bosses, you did, I included the dates for a reason, but you ignored that and said I was "proven wrong" again.
You're probably right about tBC bosses, but I didn't address that.
You're right about Ulduar bosses, but that wasn't even part of your original sentence and again, I didn't address that at all.
Vanilla Naxx is older than WotLK naxx, so I don't know why you're complaining about outdated information.
Now, something related to the thread:
It seems T10 2P and Glyph is still bugged for HotR and they don't give bonus damage to the holy component, that's why CS is higher than HotR.
Post by
blademeld
5) Normalisation states weapon speed does not matter. Therefore, 'not normalised' states that weapon speed does matter. This is why Aestu says that CS is 'not normalised' - because it does matter. If you think that it's mutually exclusive, you need to brush up on comprehension.
The reason for argument is that a portion if normalised, but a portion isn't. The scaling is normalised, but the base weapon damage component is not.
"Normalized" means that weapon speed does NOT affect the damage - hence "normal", constant regardless of arbitrary factors such as speed and
based only on DPS.
Again and again it has been proven that weapon speed does not effect CS damage, you've proven it yourself.
Bring two weapons with same base damage and different speeds, it will give you identical damage.
Base weapon damage is a separate variable that is affected by weapon speed.
By Aestu's own definition (first part), CS is normalized, he simply refuses to admit it (due to part two).
I mentioned from the get go that weapons of different speeds will have different damage due to the base weapon damage, and that's blizzard's definition of normalization, to ignore the base weapon damage.
Post by
Squishalot
You're both missing Aestu's follow up point:
As it happens
you are partly correct
. Final damage goes off that formula, but it doesn't fully "normalize" the damage. Weapon damage is a significant factor, even if as you say it doesn't fully scale - a slow weapon is, as I said, better, and significantly better relative to fast weapons than before.
Bolded for emphasis in his reply to you, blademeld. Not sure how you missed this.
Again and again it has been proven that weapon speed does not effect CS damage, you've proven it yourself.
Bring two weapons with same base damage and different speeds, it will give you identical damage.
The problem is, you won't get two weapons with same base damage and different speeds. And if you do, one will have a higher DPS and ilvl, which will affect all of your other abilities.
Yes. Normalisation means that weapon speed is fixed at 2.4 for determining the damage of that particular ability. I am agreeing with this. That is what normalisation means. That IS what Ral was stating. That weapon speed is the defining factor in normalisation. not that the speed of a weapon is important, but that the speed of an ability is defined via normalisation.
Well, your quote of him is out of context then. He said "They are normalized around WEAPON SPEED." But it's clear that for normalised abilities, weapon speed doesn't matter, because there's a fixed arbitrary value in the scaling formula. You can see why this doesn't make sense at face value.
Weapon speed does not matter? This is a meaningless statement. Normalisation is STILL about weapon speed and if an ability is not normalised, then yes. Weapon speed does matter. I was never refuting this.
Normalisation is nothing about
weapon
speed, and everything about the
fixed, arbitrary value
in the scaling formula. You're only confusing yourself when you talk about weapon speed in the context of the scaling formula.
Post by
blademeld
You're both missing Aestu's follow up point:
As it happens you are partly correct. Final damage goes off that formula, but it doesn't fully "normalize" the damage. Weapon damage is a significant factor, even if as you say it doesn't fully scale - a slow weapon is, as I said, better, and significantly better relative to fast weapons than before.
There are several problems with this, as I mentioned several times, Aestu's definition of normalization isn't the same as Blizzard's definition. Considering it is game terminology, I recommend following the game's definition instead of a single player's definition.
Aestu mentions rage normalization and judgement normalization, I have no idea what judgement normalization is, so let's focus on rage normalization.
If we use Aestu's definition of normalization for rage normalization, then DPS increases the rage generated, hence, improved gear will increase rage generation. We know for a fact that excluding hit, expertise, haste and crit, improving your DPS will not increase your rage generation.
Aestu's follow up point is what I've said from page one, that there is a difference to CS even though it is normalized due to base weapon damage and slower weapon is better due to that, it took 2 pages to get Aestu just to admit that. He still refuses to admit the definition of Normalization.
Aestu also agreed before-hand that there is a 1200 damage difference in the CS (which would be the numbers if CS was not-normalized), which was proven false by his own numbers. This, unfortunately, means that he changes numbers and definitions whenever it suits him.
Finally, CS in the numbers given above only creates ~100 DPS difference, notable, but hardly significant as Aestu claims.
Again and again it has been proven that weapon speed does not effect CS damage, you've proven it yourself.
Bring two weapons with same base damage and different speeds, it will give you identical damage.
The problem is, you won't get two weapons with same base damage and different speeds. And if you do, one will have a higher DPS and ilvl, which will affect all of your other abilities.
I mentioned that.
The problem is that neither you or Aestu see base damage as a separate variable to weapon speed and combine it together, clinging onto the old Hammer of the Righteous design.
If you don't use Aestu's definition and use the simplified definition "weapons with different speeds scale at the same rate," which is basically what the formula says, you'd be fine.
I should be using Wowpedia, but Curse is down atm, so:
Normalization refers to an Attack Power adjustment made to instant attacks in patch 1.8.
DPS isn't mentioned anywhere, of course, in the words of Aestu:
Wowpedia and "your friend" are not authoritative sources.
But you know, Aestu and his definitions are completely authoritative.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Djane
It does not apply to TBC bosses. We know what the armour values for TBC bosses are, they are posted. They can be found with about 30 seconds work on google. They are also irrelevant to current content, entirely. All wrath bosses have the same armour value. This is believed across the board. Except for you apparently.
Unless you want to claim that TBC content is current, of course.
Post by
Raleandris
Jumping back into the thread late (work sucks), perhaps my wording was less than crystal clear. When I say attacks are normalised around weapon speed, I meant that all attacks with a given type of weapon are assumed to use a fixed weapon speed, regardless of the weapon in question's actual swing speed. Everyone, it seems, has agreed on this. I think the crucial point some people are missing is what this actually means to an instant weapon attack.
Some side-information first: Depending on your weapon's speed, the amount of your attack power that is actually applied to the weapon damage shown on your character sheet changes. The slower your weapon, the greater the coefficient of attack power applied to your base weapon damage. This is similiar to the way that caster spells work, and is intuitive.
This is why Mortal Strike was such a headache in Vanilla before normalised attacks went live. With a meaty 4.0 second 2h axe, MS took a massive amount of your attack power into account, and it hit like a truck.
What normalisation does though, is it
normalizes the amount of attack power your weapon recieves towards base weapon damage for that attack only
. This means that no matter how fast or slow the weapon swings, they all recieve the same benefit from attack power.
For reference:
normalized_damage = base_weapon_damage + (X * Attack Power / 14)
We can see the normalisation of attack power here, and there's also a modifier based off of your weapon damage. As a result of the way Blizzard itemises DPS weapons of each type to all have the same weapon DPS at the same ilvl, it is clear that slow weapons have higher base damage ranges, causing them to hit harder than fast weapons with instant weapon-based abilities.
I think what Aestu is trying to argue is that because slow weapons hit harder than fast ones, that CS is not normalised. That's not what normalisation is. Crusader Strike acts like it is supposed to because
normalisation does not mean all weapons will do the same damage
.
Really, if you can't accept that Crusader Strike is normalised by the development definition, then... I don't know what else to say.
Post by
Djane
I was writing a post much to the same effect but you phrased it better Ral. So i'mma just point above.
Post by
Squishalot
The problem is that neither you or Aestu see base damage as a separate variable to weapon speed and combine it together, clinging onto the old Hammer of the Righteous design.
If you don't use Aestu's definition and use the simplified definition "weapons with different speeds scale at the same rate," which is basically what the formula says, you'd be fine.
I'm not clinging onto anything. All I'm stating is that your point is a truism - if base damage 1 = base damage 2, then CS damage is identical - but it's a pointless truism, because you'll never be in that position.
Base damage isn't a separate variable to weapon speed. There are two primary variables - base DPS and weapon speed. The use of those two variables gives you an outcome - base damage.
Base damage cannot be a variable separate to DPS and weapon speed, because if it isn't linked by formula to those two variables, it breaks down and the value is incorrect. Given two different weapon speed weapons of the same DPS/ilvl, it is impossible for base damage to be equal.
In any event, I don't know why you're arguing with me. My list of points before to Djane is to demonstrate Aestu's consistency, not his accuracy.
Really, if you can't accept that Crusader Strike is normalised by the development definition, then... I don't know what else to say.
I don't think Aestu is arguing over the mathematical accuracy - rather, the use of terminology. How would you define the old HotR scaling, or the Seal of Righteousness damage, or Seal of Justice procs, if not 'normalised'?
Post by
Raleandris
I don't think Aestu is arguing over the mathematical accuracy - rather, the use of terminology. How would you define the old HotR scaling, or the Seal of Righteousness damage, or Seal of Justice procs, if not 'normalised'?
Fair enough, but I don't see how that sort of normalisation could ever possibly apply to Crusader Strike. I don't recall anyone ever claiming that all weapons of the same DPS/ilvl would be hitting for the same amount of damage, only that it (CS) was normalised as per the definition I gave above.
Post by
Djane
There's a difference in arguing over terminology and stating categorically that weapon speed affects the damage of crusader strike.
There is also a difference in arguing over interpretation of terminology and arguing against well, Blizzard. Since you know. Check the spell effects. Effect 1:normalised weapon damage.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Djane
It's not the weapon speed that alters that damage. Your numbers do not report this. You are misunderstanding the data and the math involved.
Post by
Raleandris
There's a difference in arguing over terminology and stating categorically that weapon speed affects the damage of crusader strike.
There is also a difference in arguing over interpretation of terminology and arguing against well, Blizzard. Since you know. Check the spell effects. Effect 1:normalised weapon damage.
Crusader Strike's damage is affected by weapon speed. We've established that with the Recount I linked where a slow weapon did far more damage than a fast one. Theck's findings corroborate this.
Are you're contesting that, and arguing that two identical DPS weapons of different speed will have the same Crusader Strike damage?
Strawman. Saying that just because the weapon is slower means it hits harder isn't entirely true. It hits harder because of a higher base damage. Sure, the base damage is a result of the speed, but just like any other stat, weapon DPS is a part of an weapon's budget. Yes, it happens to be the case currently that slow weapons
in general
will hit harder because of a base damage, however, it is only due to the relationship that weapon speed and weapon DPS currently have. The correct way to discuss it is with weapon damage, not speed.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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