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How Blizz could develop such weak BM Tree?
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Post by
asakawa
empirical data is valid data.
simulation and formulation are both interesting and have their place but in the end how people do with the specs in game is the important factor.
this isn't about conformity or judging people by anything at all. it's about a forum providing good advice and suggesting that people play BM or MM in the current game when attempting anything approaching "progression" is
bad advice
.
if you deny the various sources of data showing BM and MM's weakness in comparison to SV then that's one thing. you don't seem to be doing that. i think you're just saying that 15-40% isn't such a big number and a good player can overcome that hurdle.
well, if that
is
your position then you are quite wrong. a player good enough to do above average as BM will do better as SV.a player that can get better numbers out of BM than SV is not a good player by any yardstick you want to use.
Post by
Fulgurah
this isn't about conformity or judging people by anything at all. it's about a forum providing good advice and suggesting that people play BM or MM in the current game when attempting anything approaching "progression" is
bad advice
.
/Thread.
Edit: As a raid leader of at least a somewhat progressed and competent 25m guild (8/12 currently), I can tell you that I would simply never invite a hunter who was BM or MM to a raid right now. Nor would I invite a Sub Rogue. Nor would I have invited a Frost Mage in ICC during farm OR progression content.
You can call this view elitist, but I think it's just realistic. While I do agree that everyone has a play style and that you can play what you want to, you can't do it to the detriment of 9/24 other people around you. That's just selfishness. The fact (yes,
fact
) is that BM and MM are currently way, way, way below all other DPS specs and especially Survival. The fact that survival is SO good and BM and MM are SO bad is reason enough to justify never inviting someone so ignorant and selfish.
Post by
matheus314
this isn't about conformity or judging people by anything at all. it's about a forum providing good advice and suggesting that people play BM or MM in the current game when attempting anything approaching "progression" is
bad advice
.
/Thread.
Edit: As a raid leader of at least a somewhat progressed and competent 25m guild (8/12 currently), I can tell you that I would simply never invite a hunter who was BM or MM to a raid right now. Nor would I invite a Sub Rogue. Nor would I have invited a Frost Mage in ICC during farm OR progression content.
You can call this view elitist, but I think it's just realistic. While I do agree that everyone has a play style and that you can play what you want to, you can't do it to the detriment of 9/24 other people around you. That's just selfishness. The fact (yes,
fact
) is that BM and MM are currently way, way, way below all other DPS specs and especially Survival. The fact that survival is SO good and BM and MM are SO bad is reason enough to justify never inviting someone so ignorant and selfish.
And, as a proud raid leader, what you do to improve the poor BM / MM / Sub-Rogue game experience?
Post by
Fulgurah
I don't think I'm in the business of improving in-game experience for those specs. If people want to use them in heroics or solo content, hey, that's fantastic. But, for 9 hours a week, I'd just ask those people to suck it up and do everything they can to kill a boss. That means not gimping yourself with a sub-par spec when there are other trees for your class that play nearly the same and do much more DPS. It's not like MM/BM/Sub provide any sort of raid-altering utility either.
I would tell people who REALLY want to raid as BM or MM to wait. You'll be buffed and the numbers will not be so out of whack. I genuinely hope it does get fixed. But for progression raiding, I have to value the time of 24 other people above one person's desire to play a bad raiding spec.
Post by
512617
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Post by
757306
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
And, as a proud raid leader, what you do to improve the poor BM / MM / Sub-Rogue game experience?
that's not his job (or mine, i'm in a similar position).
his job is to do what he can to ensure the success and enjoyment of the raid team.
the thing is that there is no such thing as "a BM hunter" there's just hunters who may or may not prefer to play BM. if they want to raid they have the option to spec the way that will contribute the most or they can choose not to and find a different guild/raid team.
to be clear, it is blizzard who has to do something to improve the experience of BM, MM and sub and it looks like they are going to be trying to do that (at least in the hunter case. i have an 85 rogue that would have liked to see a note or two on sub).
i do not disagree that it is a shame that the specs are bad and everyone is forced to play SV. it's terrible but for the next few weeks at least (until 4.0.6) that is the state of the game we have and it's silly to to deny it.
edit: @foulface, because you're illiterate? bad eyesight? idiocy?
Post by
Fulgurah
"I would tell people who REALLY want to raid as BM or MM to wait. You'll be bullied and the numbers will still be out of whack. I genuinely hope it doesnt get fixed."
And i wasnt surprised
As a hunter who doesn't want to be stuck playing Survival all expansion, yeah...I'd really like it to get fixed. I haven't been able to raid as BM, as I main-switched to hunter in ICC long after BM became dead. I'd really like to.
And plus, it's just good game design to have all the DPS specs of a class be fairly close to each other. Certainly not the 20-40% difference between them that exists now. If BM or MM were even something like 5% below Survival, I wouldn't be saying any of this. That sort of difference CAN be overcome with player skill and we're not a high-end raiding guild. But the difference between BM/MM and Surv currently is so huge that it makes BM/MM unplayable on a raiding level.
Post by
matheus314
You guys REALLY don't think that it's the "job" of a raid leader to improve the raiders game experience (at least through raids)?
You make a raid group. And there is the poor BM Hunter. What you do?
Sorry man, no BM Hunters here.
Hey, if you wanna join us, switch specs to SV.
Hey, dude, you know that SV does a lot mor DPS, then how you will make our life in this raid easier as a BM?
Post by
Xiamaru
this isn't about conformity or judging people by anything at all. it's about a forum providing good advice and suggesting that people play BM or MM in the current game when attempting anything approaching "progression" is
bad advice
.
/Thread.
Edit: As a raid leader of at least a somewhat progressed and competent 25m guild (8/12 currently), I can tell you that I would simply never invite a hunter who was BM or MM to a raid right now. Nor would I invite a Sub Rogue. Nor would I have invited a Frost Mage in ICC during farm OR progression content.
You can call this view elitist, but I think it's just realistic. While I do agree that everyone has a play style and that you can play what you want to, you can't do it to the detriment of 9/24 other people around you. That's just selfishness. The fact (yes,
fact
) is that BM and MM are currently way, way, way below all other DPS specs and especially Survival. The fact that survival is SO good and BM and MM are SO bad is reason enough to justify never inviting someone so ignorant and selfish.
And, as a proud raid leader, what you do to improve the poor BM / MM / Sub-Rogue game experience?
Would you, given the Raid Leder role, allow a Holy Paladin to DPS? Even given the fact that the same person could heal instead, or respec/regear into Retribution, and deal almost twice as much dps? Even this is a horrible example, because that role can actually perform a valid role besides dps'ing, which could be needed in certain situations, or maybe as an emergency in case something goes wrong. A bad dps without any alternate roles, is dead-weight being pulled through the content by others. However fun that may be to that individual, it ruins the experience for everyone else.
So, now that the conversation have been guided towards the "THINK OF HOW THEY MAY FEEL!", think of how everyone else may feel, having to pull more weight, because you can't even pull yours. If you answer is "I don't care", then regardless of the reason, we could think the same towards you. You don't care about doing bad? Fine. We don't care if you don't get a raid spot. Karma is a #$%^& sometimes.
Post by
asakawa
the thing is that every raid member i encounter wants to do the best they can. they don't want to let the group down be underachieving and using a poor spec. when i put a raid together i don't have to tell people to respec or stay "on the bench". i also don't have to tell people how to play their class (that SV is much better than BM right now). they know their class, they know the best specs.
these are the raiders i want.
if you want to run a raid that has different goals then that's your choice but expect it to be less successful.
Post by
Fulgurah
You guys REALLY don't think that it's the "job" of a raid leader to improve the raiders game experience (at least through raids)?
You make a raid group. And there is the poor BM Hunter. What you do?
Sorry man, no BM Hunters here.
Hey, if you wanna join us, switch specs to SV.
Hey, dude, you know that SV does a lot mor DPS, then how you will make our life in this raid easier as a BM?
I mean, honestly that type of situation would never arise in my guild, or many other guilds like mine. That's because you attempt to get players who are actually skilled at the game and can independently research things like best raiding spec/gear/etc.
If one of my core raiders came to me and said something like "Hey, I'm only going to come to the raid if I can go BM," they simply wouldn't get a raid invite. I would explain the reasoning for that, mostly that BM DPS is abysmal and they would be gimping themselves and the raid as a whole and that would be that.
Do I think it's my "job" to improve my guildies raid experience? To some degree, of course. Whether that is by actually doing MY job and researching fights/strategies closely and being prepared on my end for raids or by making sure raids are enjoyable for people to come to. But if one raider is honestly going to be selfish enough to force us to take him as BM/MM right now, they simply won't have a spot in our raid.
I will point out, again, that I'm only talking about my own feelings as a raid-leader of a whateveryoucallthelinebetweenhardcoreandcasual raiding guild. We don't light up the Wowprogress list or anything, but we progress pretty well and we have numerous raiders who are extremely skilled.
EDIT: I think ninja and asakawa both hit the nail on the head with their posts, thus making mine very redundant in a short time period.
Post by
355869
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
512617
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
Third, the boss can probably be killed, anyway, and an extra 15% might be entirely overkill, serving mainly your personal glory.
i'm gonna just "lol" at this.
the thread has become circular. good points have been made by sensible people. if they're ignored then it only by the foolish.
Post by
355869
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
757306
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Xiamaru
Third, the boss can probably be killed, anyway, and an extra 15% might be entirely overkill, serving mainly your personal glory.
i'm gonna just "lol" at this.
the thread has become circular. good points have been made by sensible people. if they're ignored then it only by the foolish.
I... I'm at a loss for words. Lol. Simply, lol... You win Gnorf, you managed to put together a logic so incomprehensible and senseless it couldn't possibly be understood by anyone below your level of logic. I had something I wanted to say, but as Asakawa said, this is going in circles. Argueing against these people is futile.
Post by
355869
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Fulgurah
I... I'm at a loss for words. Lol. Simply, lol... You win Gnorf, you managed to put together a logic so incomprehensible and senseless it couldn't possibly be understood by anyone below your level of logic. I had something I wanted to say, but as Asakawa said, this is going in circles. Argueing against these people is futile.
That's okay. From the tone of your post, I assume you wouldn't be arguing in good faith, anyway.
Nevertheless, the concept of overkill is pretty easy to understand. The phrase "padding the meter" shouldn't be completely unfamiliar to you, either. How about "overgearing the instance"?
Bizarre as it may seem, when the boss dies, that means the raid had "enough DPS".
Is it possible to have "more than enough DPS?" Sure! Which is why, after a boss dies, and just before "Miller Time", it's customary in many realms to post the Recount, and compare epeens.
This is what I mean by "personal glory". (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
Sorry, but no serious raider or raiding guild has this point of view.
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